Bush: Conservative, or moderate?

[Pudding Time]

That actually helps prove my point.

Despite Spain's recent changes in policy, terrorists are still trying to attack them for their PAST policies.

Based on this fact, I think it's fair to extrapolate that even if the US completely changed it's foreign policy, the terrorists would still hold our past actions against us.

I don't see it proving your point at all. Spain is currently dealing with the Muslims in Granada trying to create a revival. Not to mention how Muslims were treated in Spain after the '04 bombings. Muslims currently have plenty to be upset about with the Spanish outside the Iraq war.

So in essence, this Spain wasn't a good example.

 

[Pudding Time]

We can't change our past international policy. Let's just say we completely change our policy and leave the Middle East.

Spain did exactly that. The attacks did not stop.

How can you say that if we did that, the attacks would stop? You can't. We can only base our opinions off of what has happened.

What has happened is this:
Spain withdrew from the Middle East.
Terrorists still attempted attacks against Spain.

France has long been one of the most outspoken countries against our policies in the Middle East. Yet terrorists still try to attack them.
CNN.com - Muslim group threatens France - Mar 17, 2004
Terror attack foiled in France?

Here's my point.

I'm not saying that our polices aren't the cause of their hatred toward us. They are. The terrorists have said that for a long time.

What I'm saying is that, based on recent history from similar situations, changing our policy WILL NOT stop terrorist attacks against us. And I've provided several examples of why it won't work. They will continue to hold our past policies against us.

France?? Do you see how they treat Muslims in France?? The French hates Muslims more than we do.

 

[dt3]

I don't see it proving your point at all. Spain is currently dealing with the Muslims in Granada trying to create a revival. Not to mention how Muslims were treated in Spain after the '04 bombings. Muslims currently have plenty to be upset about with the Spanish outside the Iraq war.

So in essence, this Spain wasn't a good example.

France?? Do you see how they treat Muslims in France?? The French hates Muslims more than we do.

Ok, you don't like my examples. Then I'll turn it to you.

Is there a country that has changed their policies to appease the terrorists, and is now free of any threat of terror attacks?

 

[dt3]

UNLESS we at least try and see what happens. It is better to try than not to even consider it.

Specifically, what do you think we can we do to placate them and make them want to leave us alone? I don't think it can be done.

*Edited to remove the word "appease"*

 

[All Else Failed]

Ugh, stop using the word "appease", no one wants to or has ever wanted to appease terrorists.


EDIT: LOL placate means the same thing. No one wants to appease terrorists. But meh, moving on...

 

[All Else Failed]

Specifically, what do you think we can we do to appease them and make them want to leave us alone? I don't think it can be done.

Its not about appeasing them. Its about owning up to the fact that frankly, we're been dicks to the entire globe for a long time, and its time for us to sit in the corner for a bit, and not trying to control everything. Thats what brings us trouble.

But, I think we should sit down with the various Arab countries and work out a non aggression pact of some sorts. Of course, "terrorists" are separate entities from the state, but I think this good gesture will help us in the long run. We can also apologize.

 

[Pudding Time]

Ok, you don't like my examples. Then I'll turn it to you.

I don't like your examples because they don't hold weight to the debate at hand.

Is there a country that has changed their policies to appease the terrorists, and is now free of any threat of terror attacks?

Only Islamic extremists could answer that question.

 

[dt3]

Its not about appeasing them. Its about owning up to the fact that frankly, we're been dicks to the entire globe for a long time, and its time for us to sit in the corner for a bit, and not trying to control everything. Thats what brings us trouble.

But, I think we should sit down with the various Arab countries and work out a non aggression pact of some sorts. Of course, "terrorists" are separate entities from the state, but I think this good gesture will help us in the long run. We can also apologize.

Let's go down this hypothetical route. Bear with me on this, I'm brain-storming here.

Let's say we do this. We apologize and step out of the Middle East entirely. That satisfies one of the goals of the fatwa Bin Laden issued.

But the other goal they stated was to destroy Israel and return it to Muslim control.

By pulling out entirely, we would basically leave Israel on their own.

This would, naturally, piss off Jews across the globe. Who knows how they'd react? We could be trading Islamic Fanaticism for Jewish Fanaticism. Sure, you can say that scenario is unlikely. But who saw Islamic terrorism coming 50 years ago?


I know it's unlikely. But the point I'm getting at is that every action has unforseeable consequences. We can sit here and argue this til we're blue in the face (or fingers in this case). But at the end of the day, there's absolutely no way to definitively say that one way is better than the other.

 

[All Else Failed]

Let's go down this hypothetical route. Bear with me on this, I'm brain-storming here.

Let's say we do this. We apologize and step out of the Middle East entirely. That satisfies one of the goals of the fatwa Bin Laden issued.

But the other goal they stated was to destroy Israel and return it to Muslim control.

By pulling out entirely, we would basically leave Israel on their own.

This would, naturally, piss off Jews across the globe. Who knows how they'd react? We could be trading Islamic Fanaticism for Jewish Fanaticism. Sure, you can say that scenario is unlikely. But who saw Islamic terrorism coming 50 years ago?


I know it's unlikely. But the point I'm getting at is that every action has unforseeable consequences. We can sit here and argue this til we're blue in the face (or fingers in this case). But at the end of the day, there's absolutely no way to definitively say that one way is better than the other.

I'm not for completely severing all ties with the middle east. I do think we need to give humanitarian aid to iraq now that we made a mess of it. But, we should do it for real reasons....and not our own.


Israel is COMPLETELY fine by themselves. They have one of the most, if not the most, powerful military in that region. They could take on several countries at once. Plus, everyone knows we would come to their aid if they were under any serious threat. So that point is moot.

 

[gLing]

Specifically, what do you think we can we do to placate them and make them want to leave us alone? I don't think it can be done.

*Edited to remove the word "appease"*

I think two things would placate terrorists. We convert to islam and enact sharia law, or we all cut our own heads off.

 

[All Else Failed]

The whole "convert or die" thing is usually only held by the more extreme ones, like Bin laden.

 

[gLing]

You mean there are less extreme terrorists?

 

[All Else Failed]

There are ones that just want our asses out of their home town, and there are the ones who have a more political/religious goal.

 

[DavyBoy]

Only a conservative would think Bush was a moderate

 

[All Else Failed]

True.


Well, can't blame people in America. Americans have never really experienced real leftism so they have nothing to really base and compare their own conservative beliefs off of.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Because they make a good curry?

Am I the only one here who caught that? The Boom-boom has a pretty good point here.

I have no idea why I can't rep you.

Israel is COMPLETELY fine by themselves. They have one of the most, if not the most, powerful military in that region. They could take on several countries at once. Plus, everyone knows we would come to their aid if they were under any serious threat. So that point is moot.

They have THE most powerful military in the region because of the United States.

Your point here is from some type of parallel dimension or something. If we did it your way, then they'll start to demand the elimination of our aid to Israel, OR the supply of equal technology to them. If we didn't comply, then we're still the great Satan.

If we did comply, then Israel would be dead in less than 20 years. If we were to try to intervene, then again... we're the great Satan.

Somebody up there (don't remember who) was big on the idea of making a truce or cease fire agreement with them, but then pussed out of the argument with the terrorists are still going to be unaffected. Israel has signed how many of those agreements? They give how much aid to the region? Israeli snipers have shot how many babies out of the arms of their mothers?

Donnie has supplied evidence to back his (1st hand knowledge) of the area. Opposing views are standing on "Just because."

 

[Tim]

They have THE most powerful military in the region because of the United States.

Until Bush makes that multi billion dollar arms sale of high tech weapons to Saudi Arabia.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Only a conservative would think Bush was a moderate

While that is certainly true in practice, the point of my post is the challange people to think about "why" they believe certain things.

I find so many people in the world simply accept the tag lines for no reason other than somebody told them.

 

[All Else Failed]

Am I the only one here who caught that? The Boom-boom has a pretty good point here.

I have no idea why I can't rep you.



They have THE most powerful military in the region because of the United States.

Your point here is from some type of parallel dimension or something. If we did it your way, then they'll start to demand the elimination of our aid to Israel, OR the supply of equal technology to them. If we didn't comply, then we're still the great Satan.

If we did comply, then Israel would be dead in less than 20 years. If we were to try to intervene, then again... we're the great Satan.

Somebody up there (don't remember who) was big on the idea of making a truce or cease fire agreement with them, but then pussed out of the argument with the terrorists are still going to be unaffected. Israel has signed how many of those agreements? They give how much aid to the region? Israeli snipers have shot how many babies out of the arms of their mothers?

Donnie has supplied evidence to back his (1st hand knowledge) of the area. Opposing views are standing on "Just because. "

Israel has one of the most trained, well supplied and technologically advanced military in the region, and yes that is because of us. BUT, that means that no military in that region has a chance at even trying to take them over. Israel would win, undoubtedly. Just look at their military's past, they know what they are doing. I don't think we should cut off all aid to them, though.

 

[IntruderLS1]

I don't think we should cut off all aid to them, though.

Then you're fair game for beheading. I wonder if they would listen to your cries for mercy as you tried to explain that you feel their pain and understand their anger? :unsure: