Burqa Controversy brews up in Australia.

[sexysadie]

Then lets not, you seem to know it all anyway so what's the point?

 

[mazHur]

No government should be allowed to enact laws that are in violation of their own Constitution or other governing documents. However, as far as I am aware, banning the burqa in no way violates the Australian Constitution. The closest would be Section 116 of Chapter V, which forbids the Commonwealth from making any law for the establishment of a religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the exercise of a religion, or religious discrimination for public office.

However, the burqa isn't a religious device per se; it just happens to be worn most prominently by female members of the Muslim faith. There are female Muslims all over the world that do not wear a burqa, so you can't claim that it is a religious device.

So, does Australia have the right to ban the burqa? We've already established that it isn't a situation of religious freedom, so shouldn't it be permissible? You can call it discrimination, but ultimately, all it's doing is banning an outfit that could be construed as a potential security threat, because you cannot identify the person that is wearing it.

In addition, I love how you're just going back and claiming that you didn't mean what you said earlier. So then it isn't okay for Muslim countries to discriminate against Christians?

Enough of your bragging that you are adept at many subjects....but frankly you know nothing!

Let me tell you for your enlightenment , Burqa is a form of veiling and veiling is a MUST for every Muslim women.....however, the veiling style differs from culture to culture and sect to sect.

Nobody discriminates against Christians in any Muslim country...not even in Saudia if Christians respect their Constitutional LAWS!! It's the same as a Muslim respecting American , European or Australian laws ....for example you cannot drive the car as you drove in UK...rules are different in both countries. If you break the rules you would simply kill somebody or get killed!

I never knew before this that civilized men also quarrelled with ladies and tried to bully them as well with self-praise and haughtiness...bad, bad, bad!

 

[retro]

Enough of your bragging that you are adept at many subjects....but frankly you know nothing!

Patently false, but nonetheless irrelevant.

Let me tell you for your enlightenment , Burqa is a form of veiling and veiling is a MUST for every Muslim women.....however, the veiling style differs from culture to culture and sect to sect.

The burqa is an enveloping outer garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions to cover their bodies in public places. There are plenty of Muslim women in the United States that choose not to wear one, or a veil of any form, even though it is still legal for them to do so except in certain situations.

Nobody discriminates against Christians in any Muslim country...not even in Saudia if Christians respect their Constitutional LAWS!! It's the same as a Muslim respecting American , European or Australian laws ....for example you cannot drive the car as you drove in UK...rules are different in both countries. If you break the rules you would simply kill somebody or get killed!

I'll ask again. Is it legal then for Muslim countries to enact laws that are not in violation of their Constitution or other governing documents that discriminate against any particular religious group? It's a very simple question, and I'm still waiting for an answer from you. The law in Saudi Arabia is that the only religious faith allowed is Islam, and you can be killed if you follow the tenants of a different faith or convert from Islam to another faith. Is this or is this not discriminatory behavior?

I never knew before this that civilized men also quarrelled with ladies and tried to bully them as well with self-praise and haughtiness...bad, bad, bad!

"Civilized men" of what culture? Or are you referring to my disagreement with sadie above that I'm ignorant? If so, go back and read what I wrote. I merely disagreed with her assertions about myself and defended my actions towards you, as what I have said is truthful. I also love how, if that is the case, you're taking shots at that while defending a culture and religion where women do not have the same rights as men.

 

[retro]

Then lets not, you seem to know it all anyway so what's the point?

I've never claimed to know everything, I'm merely fairly well versed in a number of different subjects. However, in this situation, I have acted in a manner in which I have no issue with. mazHur has dished it out every bit as much as I have, and then some. The difference between the two of us is the fact that I have stated facts based on his posts in here and in other threads, while he has resorted to ad hominem attacks against me.

 

[mazHur]

Patently false, but nonetheless irrelevant.

The burqa is an enveloping outer garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions to cover their bodies in public places. There are plenty of Muslim women in the United States that choose not to wear one, or a veil of any form, even though it is still legal for them to do so except in certain situations.

Were we discussing about 'inner garments'? Veiling is also an outer garment
and burqa is one of its modes/styles!

I'll ask again. Is it legal then for Muslim countries to enact laws that are not in violation of their Constitution or other governing documents that discriminate against any particular religious group? It's a very simple question, and I'm still waiting for an answer from you. The law in Saudi Arabia is that the only religious faith allowed is Islam, and you can be killed if you follow the tenants of a different faith or convert from Islam to another faith. Is this or is this not discriminatory behavior?

I depends on the form of government; if it is a democratic secular country and its Constitution allows such freedom then stifling such liberties is wrong.

Monarchies and religious states are ruled by their Constitutional laws.....hence pending choice everybody is supposed to comply with them. Remember how long it took for Apartheid to get lost from S.Africa??

Saudia is a Muslim monarchy, a dictatorship..hence those laws. No one not even a Muslim other than the Saudi Arab!!can get nationality of Saudia even if he's born there..or gets married to a Saudi woman (marrying a Saudi woman by an outsider Muslim is rather Impossible!! Now don't be amazed at this!

Nobody kills a convert from Islam. Only he is considered an outcast and ofcourse he suffers
from other Muslims wrath when in a Muslim country he commits blasphemy!
BTW as a matter of rule a Muslim takes oath that he will not switch over to any other religion. It's this oath that keeps him binding to his religion...loyalty!! Moreover, as you might know, unlike any other religion, only Islam (meaning PEACE) preaches Universal Brotherhood-all Muslims of the world are Brothers....there is no difference between a black or a white, poor or rich, strong or weak , ........and state laws don't have to teach them all this!












"Civilized men" of what culture? Or are you referring to my disagreement with sadie above that I'm ignorant? If so, go back and read what I wrote. I merely disagreed with her assertions about myself and defended my actions towards you, as what I have said is truthful. I also love how, if that is the case, you're taking shots at that while defending a culture and religion where women do not have the same rights as men.

Ask the lady plz!!

 

[retro]

Were we discussing about 'inner garments'? Veiling is also an outer garment
and burqa is one of its modes/styles!

I didn't mention anything about an inner garment, you did... just now. Veiling is done by "some" cultures... like I said earlier, I've met Muslim women that do not wear a veil of any type.

I depends on the form of government; if it is a democratic secular country and its Constitution allows such freedom then stifling such liberties is wrong.

So it is okay then. Even though you've claimed that Muslim countries do not discriminate against Christians. But it's okay for them to do so as long as their Constitution doesn't prevent it?

What does that say about Australia or other countries that have or are considering a ban on the burqa. Because it is not used by Muslims everywhere, it isn't a requirement of a particular religion, there are veils out there that do not prevent identification. Banning the burqa does not violate Australia's Constitution, so let me ask again, should they be allowed to do so?

Monarchies and religious states are ruled by their Constitutional laws.....hence pending choice everybody is supposed to comply with them. Remember how long it took for Apartheid to get lost from S.Africa??

Yes they are. So if a monarchy allows persecution of people who are members of religions other than the official state-sanctioned one, then it's permissible. Correct?

Saudia is a Muslim monarchy, a dictatorship..hence those laws. No one not even a Muslim other than the Saudi Arab!!can get nationality of Saudia even if he's born there..or gets married to a Saudi woman (marrying a Saudi woman by an outsider Muslim is rather Impossible!! Now don't be amazed at this!

I'm not surprised by that, nor have I ever claimed to be. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Nobody kills a convert from Islam. Only he is considered an outcast and ofcourse he suffers
from other Muslims wrath when in a Muslim country he commits blasphemy!
BTW as a matter of rule a Muslim takes oath that he will not switch over to any other religion. It's this oath that keeps him binding to his religion...loyalty!! Moreover, as you might know, unlike any other religion, only Islam (meaning PEACE) preaches Universal Brotherhood-all Muslims of the world are Brothers....there is no difference between a black or a white, poor or rich, strong or weak , ........and state laws don't have to teach them all this!

Saudi Arabia is governed by sharia law as the highest authority in the country, correct? At least as far as laws go. Now, that being said... religious conversion is not permissible under sharia law. In the Qur'an, Mohammed ordered a man that had forsaken Islam and joined enemies of the faith to be killed. The following is the law in Saudi Arabia, and I've bolded the important part.

"An Apostate will be suppressed three days in prison in order that he may repent ..... otherwise, he should be killed, because he has changed his true religion, therefore, there is no use from his living, regardless of being a man or a woman, as Mohammed said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him", nerrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim."

As far as the loyalty oath... wow, seriously? I don't know of any other faith that requires that of their members. As a Christian, I certainly never gave an oath that I would never join a different religion. The interesting thing about that oath, is that it flies directly in the face of something that Mohammed said.

There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
— Qur'an 2:256

The oath is certainly a form of compulsion... and like I said, goes directly against what is taught in the Qur'an.

 

[mazHur]

I didn't mention anything about an inner garment, you did... just now. Veiling is done by "some" cultures... like I said earlier, I've met Muslim women that do not wear a veil of any type.

Wrong- veiling is mandatory for all Muslim women. I doubt if those women whom you met will ever show you their booty at a swimming pool or ever date you...unless they are 'westernized' (or fallen madly in love or revolt) or take their faith frivolously. Just try to date a Muslim girl and you will come to know the truth!

So it is okay then. Even though you've claimed that Muslim countries do not discriminate against Christians. But it's okay for them to do so as long as their Constitution doesn't prevent it?

In my experience Muslims do not discriminate against Christians as long
as they obey the laws of that country. Those laws are also the same for Muslims except Constitutional bars to non-Muslims in that they cannot head a Muslim state.

What does that say about Australia or other countries that have or are considering a ban on the burqa.

Because it is not used by Muslims everywhere

Boy, veiling is MANDATORY for every Muslim woman....burqa is just one of the tools for that.

, it isn't a requirement of a particular religion

How terribly wrong you are!!

, there are veils out there that do not prevent identification. Banning the burqa does not violate Australia's Constitution, so let me ask again, should they be allowed to do so?

Identification could be a problem for the westerners because they are yet not accustomed to recognizing women dressed up in a burqa ( a Muslim man has no difficulty though) .... Nowhere does the Quran want Muslim women to wear burqa; it simply asks them to cover up their 'adornments', their bosoms,heads, and other private parts, etc. Face covering is NOT a religious injunction..yet some women opt for it upon their own interpretation of their religion or due to cultural constraints...their fault, not Islam's.

I have not read Australian Constitution but I don't
think that is against women rights or personal freedom.
Let the Australian govt and the Muslims who were born
and live there work together to sort out their 'internal problem'.

Yes they are. So if a monarchy allows persecution of people who are members of religions other than the official state-sanctioned one, then it's permissible. Correct?

You question then answer it yourself!! funny indeed.
All the big powers stand behind that monarchy and its laws....were it that they didn't approve of them they wouldn't be there ..but they are flourishing with the assistance of the super powers, hence your grievance against them is home-born.
how can you compare a dictatorship with secular democracy? a crab with a dart??

I'm not surprised by that, nor have I ever claimed to be. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

funny man or Feynman?!!

Saudi Arabia is governed by sharia law as the highest authority in the country, correct? At least as far as laws go. Now, that being said... religious conversion is not permissible under sharia law. In the Qur'an, Mohammed ordered a man that had forsaken Islam and joined enemies of the faith to be killed. The following is the law in Saudi Arabia, and I've bolded the important part.

Do you know what Sharia law is?? No.
Saudis etc being dictatorships only use Sharia punishments to maintain their rule...
Sharia concisely means conviction to both rights and duties at the same time in a Islamic Welfare State, and including Saudia, NO such state yet exists in the world hence your outlook in the matter is incorrect and fallacious !

For a better understanding of Islam I may suggest you to read translations and commentaries to Quran by Western scholars such as Prof. Arberry and Picthall, etc....
Traditions of Muhammad come later once you have got a knack of the Quran..
FYI there is no unanimity on Traditions among different sects of Muslims (not Islam) all over the world yet they believe in the same unadulterated single version of the Quran for more than the last 1400 years!
There must be substance of Truth in their belief because more than 1.5 billion people believe in it universally...
and from democratic point of view you cannot malign their laws, whatever!

As far as the loyalty oath... wow, seriously? I don't know of any other faith that requires that of their members. As a Christian, I certainly never gave an oath that I would never join a different religion. The interesting thing about that oath, is that it flies directly in the face of something that Mohammed said.

Just listen to the 5 times a day calls of the Muezzan ( one who calls for prayer) who calls Muslims for prayer to the mosque and you will understand the meaning of an OATH!
A Muslim will never detract from his OATH easily......never expect that from a Muslim!!

The oath is certainly a form of compulsion... and like I said, goes directly against what is taught in the Qur'an.

No, were it a compulsion Muslims wouldn't rush to offer their prayers to Allah in the mosque or where ever they happened to be!! More than Billions of Muslims all over the world are not Muslims due to your alleged 'compulsion'!! Muslim is forbidden to talk ill of any other religion or their Prophets or books.
Islam is voluntary and has no way back...and no Muslim wants to go back on it for the sake of sport or fun!!If he does he's a deviate and other Muslims ..of any nationality....would condemn his betrayal!

 

[retro]

Wrong- veiling is mandatory for all Muslim women. I doubt if those women whom you met will ever show you their booty at a swimming pool or ever date you...unless they are 'westernized' (or fallen madly in love or revolt) or take their faith frivolously. Just try to date a Muslim girl and you will come to know the truth!

Did I say anything about a swimming pool or dating them? No. Your deflection by way of throwing out red herrings is tiering at best.

Boy, veiling is MANDATORY for every Muslim woman....burqa is just one of the tools for that.

Modesty is required for every Muslim woman, just as it is for men in accordance with hijab. How then do you defend the fact that modern Muslim men dress immodestly when they go swimming and such, as was posted earlier in this thread? Does hijab not apply to men?

Who is to say that this isn't just referring to general modesty. Let's look at it with a relativist approach to the situation. Could the Qur'an simply be referring to modesty in a specific culture? Let's look at a possible situation here.

There is a Muslim woman in America, she doesn't wear a head scarf because it isn't generally accepted in this country and is associated with some less than savory elements of her religion. She instead chooses to dress modestly in every other way. She wears loose skirts, or dresses, she doesn't show off her body, and dresses in a way that would be considered "prudish" in western societies. She's following hajib in that she is dressing modestly in the culture that she lives in. Now, it would be unacceptable for a woman of her faith to wear such outfits in say, Saudi Arabia, but that's because their view of modesty is different than that in the west.

I would also appreciate it if you could refrain from calling me, "boy". It is an offensive way of referring to someone, as though they are not an equal. I've proven myself to be every bit your equal in this discussion, and you talking down to me as though I am not is not conducive to a discourse. I've said the things I've said about you because they are true, not to offend you or upset you. If you do not appreciate being called a liar, then don't lie. If you don't like being called a hypocrite, then refrain from hypocrisy.

In my experience Muslims do not discriminate against Christians as long as they obey the laws of that country. Those laws are also the same for Muslims except Constitutional bars to non-Muslims in that they cannot head a Muslim state.

Answer my question for the love of God. Is it permissible for a Muslim or Islamic government to discriminate against Christians or people of other faiths in accordance with their own laws?

Identification could be a problem for the westerners because they are yet not accustomed to recognizing women dressed up in a burqa ( a Muslim man has no difficulty though) .... Nowhere does the Quran want Muslim women to wear burqa; it simply asks them to cover up their 'adornments', their bosoms,heads, and other private parts, etc. Face covering is NOT a religious injunction..yet some women opt for it upon their own interpretation of their religion or due to cultural constraints...their fault, not Islam's.

Then how do you defend Sura 33:58-59?

Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed
---Sura 333:58-59

It seems pretty clear that the purpose would be that they couldn't be distinguished as individuals, merely as women.

I have not read Australian Constitution but I don't think that is against women rights or personal freedom. Let the Australian govt and the Muslims who were born and live there work together to sort out their 'internal problem'.[/B]

Banning of the wearing of the burqa is not a religion discrimination. There are other veils that Muslim women could wear that would not prevent identification or give the appearance of a mask.

You question then answer it yourself!! funny indeed.
All the big powers stand behind that monarchy and its laws....were it that they didn't approve of them they wouldn't be there ..but they are flourishing with the assistance of the super powers, hence your grievance against them is home-born. how can you compare a dictatorship with secular democracy? a crab with a dart??

I didn't actually answer it myself. I qualified the question, I didn't answer it.

There's nothing to suggest that western "powers" support Saudi laws, merely that they accept Saudi authority in their own country. They respect the ability of Saudi Arabia to enact their own laws in accordance with their own customs and religious beliefs, as Saudi Arabia is not a "free" country.

Do you know what Sharia law is?? No.
Saudis etc being dictatorships only use Sharia punishments to maintain their rule...
Sharia concisely means conviction to both rights and duties at the same time in a Islamic Welfare State, and including Saudia, NO such state yet exists in the world hence your outlook in the matter is incorrect and fallacious !

I actually do know what sharia law is, but thank you for informing me that I don't simply because you don't agree with the things that I have to say. Saudi Arabian law is based on sharia law, hence my generalized statement. As such, there isn't much that the Saudi government can do to change any of those laws, because changing the laws would be an attempt to change the sharia law set down in Muslim tradition. Saudi Arabia bases its laws on classical sharia law. That's a fact, I'm sorry if you refuse to believe it.

For a better understanding of Islam I may suggest you to read translations and commentaries to Quran by Western scholars such as Prof. Arberry and Picthall, etc....

I actually have a pretty good understanding of Islam, and I have read some of the works of Arberry previously.

Traditions of Muhammad come later once you have got a knack of the Quran..
FYI there is no unanimity on Traditions among different sects of Muslims (not Islam) all over the world yet they believe in the same unadulterated single version of the Quran for more than the last 1400 years!
There must be substance of Truth in their belief because more than 1.5 billion people believe in it universally... and from democratic point of view you cannot malign their laws, whatever!

So Islam must be the only true faith in the world because 1.5 billion people believe in it? Please correct me if that isn't what you are saying. Because that's certainly what it sounds like to me. Christianity has 2.2 billion adherents, and is the largest religion in the world (all sects combined). They all pretty much hold true to the same principles, with some different interpretations (most notably the Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics). There are also other elements with vastly different interpretations of scripture, or their own holy books as well... such as the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness faiths.

I personally can malign any laws that I do not agree with. I don't agree with some tenants of the Christian/Jewish tradition. I don't agree with some of the laws in my own country, yet I have the freedom to openly disagree with them because of where I live and the freedoms granted to me by my country.

Just listen to the 5 times a day calls of the Muezzan ( one who calls for prayer) who calls Muslims for prayer to the mosque and you will understand the meaning of an OATH!
A Muslim will never detract from his OATH easily......never expect that from a Muslim!!

I fail to see how the call to prayer has anything to do with an oath taken that you cannot forsake your chosen religion.

No, were it a compulsion Muslims wouldn't rush to offer their prayers to Allah in the mosque or where ever they happened to be!! More than Billions of Muslims all over the world are not Muslims due to your alleged 'compulsion'!! Muslim is forbidden to talk ill of any other religion or their Prophets or books.
Islam is voluntary and has no way back...and no Muslim wants to go back on it for the sake of sport or fun!!If he does he's a deviate and other Muslims ..of any nationality....would condemn his betrayal!

The fact that they feel compelled to rush to offer their prayers at the exact same times every day screams of compulsion to me.

 

[mazHur]

Did I say anything about a swimming pool or dating them? No. Your deflection by way of throwing out red herrings is tiering at best.

but you did about Muslim women you met...why don't you try them out for once??



Modesty is required for every Muslim woman, just as it is for men in accordance with hijab. How then do you defend the fact that modern Muslim men dress immodestly when they go swimming and such, as was posted earlier in this thread?

Does hijab not apply to men?

you know nothing about Islam,,,,just bookish information is all that's your meagre asset!

the Hijab of a Muslim man is NOT to stare or glance twice at a stranger woman whereas a woman is required to cover her 'adornments' (google and look up the meaning of 'adornment' as I won't respond to your baloney henceforth)!
No other Hijab is required for Men...
The 'adornments' of males are different to those of 'females'----I thought you knew that but you don't
seem to have witnessed the difference yet. I called you boy because you ask such silly questions which have
no head or tail!

Who is to say that this isn't just referring to general modesty. Let's look at it with a relativist approach to the situation. Could the Qur'an simply be referring to modesty in a specific culture? Let's look at a possible situation here.

No, the Quran has a corresponding standard for modesty/chastity between men and women and that has been clearly stated in the Quran. it's just like other things reserved for men and women, such as shoes, apparel, etc. Expecting men to put on Hijab like women would be asking them to wear women lingerie!! Nonsense!

There is a Muslim woman in America, she doesn't wear a head scarf because it isn't generally accepted in this country and is associated with some less than savory elements of her religion. She instead chooses to dress modestly in every other way. She wears loose skirts, or dresses, she doesn't show off her body, and dresses in a way that would be considered "prudish" in western societies. She's following hajib in that she is dressing modestly in the culture that she lives in. Now, it would be unacceptable for a woman of her faith to wear such outfits in say, Saudi Arabia, but that's because their view of modesty is different than that in the west.

Even a nun's dress is okay for a Muslim hijab; she can also wear a gown to cover her up....
burqa is just a word for a certain kind of costume.... a mode popular among Muslim women. It is not specifically recommended by the Quran.

I would also appreciate it if you could refrain from calling me, "boy". It is an offensive way of referring to someone, as though they are not an equal. I've proven myself to be every bit your equal in this discussion, and you talking down to me as though I am not is not conducive to a discourse. I've said the things I've said about you because they are true, not to offend you or upset you. If you do not appreciate being called a liar, then don't lie. If you don't like being called a hypocrite, then refrain from hypocrisy.

mind your language , stop calling me names and behave like a civilized child! You still have to grow up!

Answer my question for the love of God. Is it permissible for a Muslim or Islamic government to discriminate against Christians or people of other faiths in accordance with their own laws?

If it is a truly Islamic state It will not discriminate against minorities....
Muslims rules over Spain for about 800 years...how many Christians or Jews were discriminated there? None. Infact jews were close friends of Muslims
Have a look at Indian history-the Moguls did not discriminate against the majority Hindus...
in fact almost all Muslims out there are converts from Hinduism and Christianity.
The greater part of south Asia consists of Muslims...no Muslim warrior went there to preach Islam!

Discrimination naturally arises when there is conflict of interest. There would be no agitation in the Americas if Muslims observed the laws of the land which they must and not vie for power..similarly same is expected of Christians in a Muslim or Islamic country, if any, to eliminate discrimination.

Then how do you defend Sura 33:58-59?

I will have to look up...post if you can.

It seems pretty clear that the purpose would be that they couldn't be distinguished as individuals, merely as women.

women are individuals having their own rights and duties..

Banning of the wearing of the burqa is not a religion discrimination.

a complete ban IS!

There are other veils that Muslim women could wear that would not prevent identification or give the appearance of a mask.

that sounds reasonable.

I didn't actually answer it myself. I qualified the question, I didn't answer it.

now you are puffing up your linguistic antics!

There's nothing to suggest that western "powers" support Saudi laws, merely that they accept Saudi authority in their own country. They respect the ability of Saudi Arabia to enact their own laws in accordance with their own customs and religious beliefs, as Saudi Arabia is not a "free" country.

they do not condemn it as well as they do the Talibans!Why??

I actually do know what sharia law is, but thank you for informing me that I don't simply because you don't agree with the things that I have to say. Saudi Arabian law is based on sharia law, hence my generalized statement. As such, there isn't much that the Saudi government can do to change any of those laws, because changing the laws would be an attempt to change the sharia law set down in Muslim tradition. Saudi Arabia bases its laws on classical sharia law. That's a fact, I'm sorry if you refuse to believe it.

you just hand-pick features of sharia law that best suit your intent and purpose.
Sharia is both RIGHTS and DUTIES at the same time!!
Saudia as i told you is a monarchy, amazingly not condemned by the West, a repressive power misusing selected sharia laws of retribution only to maintain its rule!!

I actually have a pretty good understanding of Islam, and I have read some of the works of Arberry previously.

good but you still have to learn more for perfection!

So Islam must be the only true faith in the world because 1.5 billion people believe in it? Please correct me if that isn't what you are saying. Because that's certainly what it sounds like to me. Christianity has 2.2 billion adherents, and is the largest religion in the world (all sects combined). They all pretty much hold true to the same principles, with some different interpretations (most notably the Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics). There are also other elements with vastly different interpretations of scripture, or their own holy books as well... such as the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness faiths.

I didn't say that.
Like Christianity, Islam too is one of the great religions of the world...

I personally can malign any laws that I do not agree with. I don't agree with some tenants of the Christian/Jewish tradition. I don't agree with some of the laws in my own country, yet I have the freedom to openly disagree with them because of where I live and the freedoms granted to me by my country.

Islam forbids such loose and lavish freedom...

I fail to see how the call to prayer has anything to do with an oath taken that you cannot forsake your chosen religion.

is this what you know about Islam??
A prayer call to Muslims refreshes and reconfirms the Muslim Oath 5 times a day!

The fact that they feel compelled to rush to offer their prayers at the exact same times every day screams of compulsion to me.

foolish to think so... No one compels a Muslim to do so in America, Canada or the West!listen to
the screams and have happy nightmares until you know better and stop boasting about your
super knowledge!!
Au revoir!

 

[retro]

Fuck it, I'm done with your childish bullshit. You take shots at me, you refuse to listen to reason, or even have an actual discussion. I provide thoughts, insight, and facts... you provide rhetoric, childish behavior, and an unwillingness to believe that an "outsider" might actually understand your religion.

You're nothing more than a pathetic little troll.

I might respond to you again if you bother to learn idioms before you say them, stop disqualifying what people have to say simply because you don't agree not because there is evidence to the contrary, and stop behaving like a petulant little child when someone calls you on your bullshit. But, given your track record, I highly doubt any of those things will come to pass. So continue on your trollish ways, or maybe just leave the forum. Quite frankly, I don't particularly give a shit anymore. I tried to have a discussion, and you turned it into a circus. Guess my forum clown statement wasn't all that far from the truth.

 

[mazHur]

http://mto.org/islam/en/verses_hijab.html

 

[Peter Parka]

 

[mazHur]

The Christian Woman's Veiling vs burqa/hijab



interesting links for non-trolls.......
http://www.anabaptists.org/bh/t19.html


http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=39⊂=741&cat_name=Manners+%26+Customs&subcat_name=Veils

 

[mazHur]

 

[sexysadie]

I've never claimed to know everything, I'm merely fairly well versed in a number of different subjects. However, in this situation, I have acted in a manner in which I have no issue with. mazHur has dished it out every bit as much as I have, and then some. The difference between the two of us is the fact that I have stated facts based on his posts in here and in other threads, while he has resorted to ad hominem attacks against me.

I find it very interesting that you gave me a red rep after I've given you green, just because we disagree, it just confirms my first impression of you.

FYI I can defend anybody I see fit to defend, especially when I see them being cornered by some hotshot blowhard who read a book once and now thinks he knows it all. I'm not saying that I agree with everything that Mazzy says, I'm merely defending his right to say it, this is a free country, am I wrong? A tiny suggestion if I may.....debate the issue and move on, you're not impressing anybody.

 

[mazHur]

I find it very interesting that you gave me a red rep after I've given you green, just because we disagree, it just confirms my first impression of you.

\

that's deplorable, I feel so sorry for this, lady!

FYI I can defend anybody I see fit to defend, especially when I see them being cornered by some hotshot blowhard who read a book once and now thinks he knows it all. I'm not saying that I agree with everything that Mazzy says, I'm merely defending his right to say it, this is a free country, am I wrong? A tiny suggestion if I may.....debate the issue and move on, you're not impressing anybody

.

thank you for your open-mindedness

 

[sexysadie]

I have one little suggestion for you too Mazzy.....ask a mod to close this thread and move on. You're too good for this.

 

[mazHur]

I have one little suggestion for you too Mazzy.....ask a mod to close this thread and move on. You're too good for this.

Thanks, Sadie, I take your point.

May I request the respected mods to close this thread for apparent reasons?
Thank you

 

[sexysadie]

Thanks, Sadie, I take your point.

May I request the respected mods to close this thread for apparent reasons?
Thank you

You're a good man Mazzy, what you're doing shows a lot of character.....:thumbup

 

[mazHur]

You're a good man Mazzy, what you're doing shows a lot of character.....:thumbup

I am always for good advice and good people
thanks again for your kind compliment.