Burqa Controversy brews up in Australia.

[mazHur]

The burqa battle Down Under

The debate over the controversial garment is raging in Australia, and it reveals some surprising common ground

''[T]o use freedom of choice as a justification, then we are also accepting of women who undress out of this same freedom of choice, and we can never do this as Muslim women. We dress like this because it is the command of Allah, not any man.''



"the Western secular way of life, which robs a woman of her dignity, honor and respect, where she is considered little more than a commodity to be bought and sold, or the option of Islam, where a woman's dignity, respect and honor are priceless."

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/index.html?story=/mwt/broadsheet/2010/09/20/australia_burqa&source=newsletter&utm_source=contactology&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Salon_Daily%2520Newsletter%2520%2528Not%2520Premium%2529_7_30_110

 

[cam elle toe]

The burqa battle Down Under

The debate over the controversial garment is raging in Australia, and it reveals some surprising common ground

''[T]o use freedom of choice as a justification, then we are also accepting of women who undress out of this same freedom of choice, and we can never do this as Muslim women. We dress like this because it is the command of Allah, not any man.''



"the Western secular way of life, which robs a woman of her dignity, honor and respect, where she is considered little more than a commodity to be bought and sold, or the option of Islam, where a woman's dignity, respect and honor are priceless."

http://www.salon.com/life/broadshee...y%20Newsletter%20%28Not%20Premium%29_7_30_110

It is?:willy_nilly:

 

[Minor Axis]

"the Western secular way of life, which robs a woman of her dignity, honor and respect, where she is considered little more than a commodity to be bought and sold, or the option of Islam, where a woman's dignity, respect and honor are priceless."

Now that is FUNNY! See this is how you brainwash someone into thinking oppression is a good thing...

For Islam to be considered a modern religion, it would have to offer women the choice and not chase them around with morals police harassing and abusing them for not complying. Of course I am thinking of the Middle Eastern version which has a lot of male domination cultural issues wrapped into it.

 

[Tangerine]

They still stone women to death for having sex.


/all debate on this topic.

 

[cam elle toe]

I'm guessing most of you have heard of the Cronulla riots a few years back?

I grew up in the area through the 70's/80's and 90's.

Cronulla beach was the beach of choice for Muslim families because it was the most easily reached by train.

I can tell you now, that those riots were at least 30 years brewing.

For 30 years WE (Aussies) copped abuse for our skimpy swimwear....called "skippy's" and sluts.....had our belongings put in the bin when we went for a swim so a whole family could take over the area we had already been sitting at....

I DO NOT condone what happened in those riots...but "reverse racism" is endemic here....we cant even put Christmas decorations up in some places so as "not to offend"

FFS...it shits me to tears in all honesty...LIve by our laws...or go home....simple.

Assimilate.

 

[mazHur]

Now that is FUNNY! See this is how you brainwash someone into thinking oppression is a good thing...

For Islam to be considered a modern religion, it would have to offer women the choice and not chase them around with moral's police harassing and abusing them for not complying. Of course I am thinking of the Middle Eastern version which has a lot of male domination cultural issues wrapped into it.

The Middle East is mostly Imperial in nature; the governments there do not truly represent Islam nor do they anywhere else in the world!! Consequently what may be happening in the Middle East is mainly a twisted form of religion to maintain the Imperial rule by force and compulsion. I think if it weren't so the comparatively larger population of immigrants/foreigners there would have mutinied...or atleast protested but they don't only because they would be tortured. The situation there is very unlike Western countries which are caught up in their own constitutional laws and are thus bound to allow equal rights to one and all!!

Muslims do have their own Moral code...the same as in Judaism and Christianity but they adhere to it more strongly than the latter which makes all the difference. Of course women are abused by Muslims but you can't say this doesn't happen among other religious factions. Look at the abortion, divorce and rape rate in the West and compare it with the Middle East...you will surely shy off!

 

[mazHur]

I'm guessing most of you have heard of the Cronulla riots a few years back?

I grew up in the area through the 70's/80's and 90's.

Cronulla beach was the beach of choice for Muslim families because it was the most easily reached by train.

I can tell you now, that those riots were at least 30 years brewing.

For 30 years WE (Aussies) copped abuse for our skimpy swimwear....called "skippy's" and sluts.....had our belongings put in the bin when we went for a swim so a whole family could take over the area we had already been sitting at....

I DO NOT condone what happened in those riots...but "reverse racism" is endemic here....we cant even put Christmas decorations up in some places so as "not to offend"

FFS...it shits me to tears in all honesty...LIve by our laws...or go home....simple.

Assimilate.

Have no idea about those riots---could you post a link?

Summarily, it's easy saying than done!
Muslim code of life is entirely different than Christians...especially in matters related to sexual liberties outside marriage, mixing up of sexes. Hence no chance for them to get assimilated in a 'libertine' culture...

Australia, like other countries, is governed by its own constitutional rights and cannot over rule its own principles and laws when it comes to Muslims or Hindus etc. Unfortunately Australia has earned a bad name for racism the world over...yet it is inviting more and more immigrants ( both Muslims and Hindus etc) there. Why??

 

[Azazel]

 

[mazHur]

Wow!! This is reeeeeal 'assimilation' of two opposite cultures!! Great!

 

[Zorak]

Muslims do have their own Moral code...the same as in Judaism and Christianity but they adhere to it more strongly than the latter which makes all the difference. Of course women are abused by Muslims but you can't say this doesn't happen among other religious factions. Look at the abortion, divorce and rape rate in the West and compare it with the Middle East...you will surely shy off!

I'm not going to touch the abortion comment, but divorce isn't an abuse. Why can't women divorce a spouse pray tell?

 

[mazHur]

I'm not going to touch the abortion comment, but divorce isn't an abuse. Why can't women divorce a spouse pray tell?

How come this abortion issue step in in here?? FYI the Hindus of India are NO.1 in carrying out abortions
of females!! check out the shocking stats on the web...and they are not Muslims!

Abortion is allowed to Muslims under certain conditions, such as health problem or threat to life.
Moreover, abortion being illegal in many Muslim-populated countries does not amount to religious binding.

Who says a Muslim woman cannot divorce her husband??? You ought to know more!!

 

[Meirionnydd]

It is?:willy_nilly:

Bleh, there's a debate raging here about the Burqa? I don't explicitly remember this. Apart from some Opposition MP proposing a ban a few months ago (which subsequently slammed by the Labor party and Opposition MP's alike), there really hasn't been a lot of talk about it.

Before that, the only time the issue has surfaced was back in the Howard years, in which the former Prime Minister expressed his opposition to banning the Burqa, so yeah.

I'm guessing most of you have heard of the Cronulla riots a few years back?

I grew up in the area through the 70's/80's and 90's.

Cronulla beach was the beach of choice for Muslim families because it was the most easily reached by train.

I can tell you now, that those riots were at least 30 years brewing.

For 30 years WE (Aussies) copped abuse for our skimpy swimwear....called "skippy's" and sluts.....had our belongings put in the bin when we went for a swim so a whole family could take over the area we had already been sitting at....

I DO NOT condone what happened in those riots...but "reverse racism" is endemic here....we cant even put Christmas decorations up in some places so as "not to offend"

FFS...it shits me to tears in all honesty...LIve by our laws...or go home....simple.

Assimilate.

I'm pretty sure religious freedom is a right enshrined in our constitution, Muslims are free to practice their religion so long as their way of life does not interfere with our institutions of law and government. In addition, cultural diversity is what makes Australia unique, and helps define our national identity. 'Assimilation' is an overly nationalistic and bigoted term to use. I have no quarrels with people practicing and embracing their cultural heritage in this country. Of course, as long as it does not conflict with our laws of values (equality and all the like).

 

[mazHur]

I'm pretty sure religious freedom is a right enshrined in our constitution, Muslims are free to practice their religion so long as their way of life does not interfere with our institutions of law and government. In addition, cultural diversity is what makes Australia unique, and helps define our national identity. 'Assimilation' is an overly nationalistic and bigoted term to use. I have no quarrels with people practicing and embracing their cultural heritage in this country. Of course, as long as it does not conflict with our laws of values (equality and all the like).

this is good thinking and I appreciate it as a human being!

 

[Minor Axis]

I have not said it in this thread, but burkas should never be illegal. In those circumstances were security is an issue, accommodations should be made for a proper identification. I think France messed up.

They still stone women to death for having sex.

A most heinous double standard.

I DO NOT condone what happened in those riots...but "reverse racism" is endemic here....we cant even put Christmas decorations up in some places so as "not to offend"

If local government is going to condone religious holiday decorations on public property, then they should allow all religions or none at all. And as I say this, I'm thinking of Wican. :humm:

The Middle East is mostly Imperial in nature; the governments there do not truly represent Islam nor do they anywhere else in the world!! Consequently what may be happening in the Middle East is mainly a twisted form of religion to maintain the Imperial rule by force and compulsion. I think if it weren't so the comparatively larger population of immigrants/foreigners there would have mutinied...or atleast protested but they don't only because they would be tortured. The situation there is very unlike Western countries which are caught up in their own constitutional laws and are thus bound to allow equal rights to one and all!!

I agree, and I think there are some cultural issues at work. The history of humans is that men dominated and women were subservient. Look at the U.S., women did not get the right to vote until the late 1800's (in some areas), reinforced by an amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1920. The only difference between cultures is how fast they recognize the rights of all people regardless of sex or race.

Muslims do have their own Moral code...the same as in Judaism and Christianity but they adhere to it more strongly than the latter which makes all the difference. Of course women are abused by Muslims but you can't say this doesn't happen among other religious factions. Look at the abortion, divorce and rape rate in the West and compare it with the Middle East...you will surely shy off!

Women traditionally have been viewed somewhere between "lesser" and "property". Regarding abortion, divorce, and rape, I wonder if we have adequate statistics from the Middle Eastern countries? Or maybe the treat if you dip your pee-pee where it don't belong it might get cut off? Regarding divorce, in the 1950's U.S. divorce was rare because it was a social negative. The flip side is that a lot of people stayed in unhappy marriages. I would not describe this as morally superior. It's the choice of social vs individual.

Muslim beach wear as it should be versus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Phg9uruAWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvPLBCdctWQ

Now Muslim men have no restrictions and can wear basically what they want? I'd say that is hypocritical or a good illustration of the double standard.

 

[mazHur]

I have not said it in this thread, but burkas should never be illegal. In those circumstances were security is an issue, accommodations should be made for a proper identification. I think France messed up.

but most French don't think the way you do..
However, I am not in favor of face, hands and feet covering...that is more of a 'smart fad' and not religious requirement at all!

A most heinous double standard.

Men are also flogged, jailed or killed!!!
Punishment for married, unmarried and slaves is different and lesser respectively. However, the conditions of bringing in 4 respectable eye witnesses to charge the couple for fornication is never fulfilled, hence stoning is more of a cultural issue rather than religious. However, there is NO excuse for Rape.

If local government is going to condone religious holiday decorations on public property, then they should allow all religions or none at all. And as I say this, I'm thinking of Wican. :humm:

Obviously, the govt is to be blamed for that double standard, not Muslim's fault!

I agree, and I think there are some cultural issues at work. The history of humans is that men dominated and women were subservient. Look at the U.S., women did not get the right to vote until the late 1800's (in some areas), reinforced by an amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1920. The only difference between cultures is how fast they recognize the rights of all people regardless of sex or race.

Women traditionally have been viewed somewhere between "lesser" and "property". Regarding abortion, divorce, and rape, I wonder if we have adequate statistics from the Middle Eastern countries? Or maybe the treat if you dip your pee-pee where it don't belong it might get cut off? Regarding divorce, in the 1950's U.S. divorce was rare because it was a social negative. The flip side is that a lot of people stayed in unhappy marriages. I would not describe this as morally superior. It's the choice of social vs individual.

It is for a Muslim husband to work , earn, feed and ensure security and safety and maintain his family, hence Muslim men consider themselves as a degree 'superior' to women . If women take the charge they are 'superior' but this generally doesn't happen. That is a Muslim husband is the Master of the House and his word is almost Law! Like a good Christian wife as defined by the Bible or Torah, she should ride behind when she is riding a horse with her husband. But because this does not happen in the West (of course due to extra-freedom and state privileges available to women there and generally a husband not able to maintain his family alone) the divorce rate is highly up..the Western men and women take 'divorce' , a necessary evil, as if it were 'fun and sport' because of the state encouragements. This is not so in Islamic countries.....

Muslim beach wear as it should be versus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Phg9uruAWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvPLBCdctWQ

Now Muslim men have no restrictions and can wear basically what they want? I'd say that is hypocritical or a good illustration of the double standard.

There are separate swimming areas for Muslim men and women....
the swim wear shown in the video is again a 'fad' and invention of some fashion designer to make dough!
you will realize that most Muslim countries are poor and don't even have swimming pools How then could poor woman can afford that expensive costume...????

Muslim men swim as the Christian men in oceans and seas....as well as swimming pools but in gender separated zones!!

 

[Peter Parka]

I couldn't give a shit is muslim women want to wear masks. You never get people up in arms at haloween when non muslims wear masks, funny that.

 

[mazHur]

 

[cam elle toe]

Bleh, there's a debate raging here about the Burqa? I don't explicitly remember this. Apart from some Opposition MP proposing a ban a few months ago (which subsequently slammed by the Labor party and Opposition MP's alike), there really hasn't been a lot of talk about it.

Before that, the only time the issue has surfaced was back in the Howard years, in which the former Prime Minister expressed his opposition to banning the Burqa, so yeah.

I'm pretty sure religious freedom is a right enshrined in our constitution, Muslims are free to practice their religion so long as their way of life does not interfere with our institutions of law and government. In addition, cultural diversity is what makes Australia unique, and helps define our national identity. 'Assimilation' is an overly nationalistic and bigoted term to use. I have no quarrels with people practicing and embracing their cultural heritage in this country. Of course, as long as it does not conflict with our laws of values (equality and all the like).

I meant our Criminal/court laws....not religious ones...I too believe in freedom to practice your own religion...I find it hypocritical though, that we allow there freedoms, yet they protest our Christian ones...our dress etc..I guess assimilate is the wrong word...maybe tolerance would be better..but it HAS to work both ways...and I all too often I DON'T see tolerance towards OUR freedoms and values.
I am willing to bet there are no Christian churches or Xmas decorations in a Muslim country...but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Minor Axis]

but most French don't think the way you do..
However, I am not in favor of face, hands and feet covering...that is more of a 'smart fad' and not religious requirement at all!

It reinforces the property aspect of women.

Obviously, the govt is to be blamed for that double standard, not Muslim's fault!

Religion is at work and in positions of power in government and populace in those countries.

It is for a Muslim husband to work , earn, feed and ensure security and safety and maintain his family, hence Muslim men consider themselves as a degree 'superior' to women . If women take the charge they are 'superior' but this generally doesn't happen. That is a Muslim husband is the Master of the House and his word is almost Law! Like a good Christian wife as defined by the Bible or Torah, she should ride behind when she is riding a horse with her husband. But because this does not happen in the West (of course due to extra-freedom and state privileges available to women there and generally a husband not able to maintain his family alone) the divorce rate is highly up..the Western men and women take 'divorce' , a necessary evil, as if it were 'fun and sport' because of the state encouragements. This is not so in Islamic countries.....

Right out of the dark ages of human enlightenment. Just an opinion.

There are separate swimming areas for Muslim men and women....
the swim wear shown in the video is again a 'fad' and invention of some fashion designer to make dough!
you will realize that most Muslim countries are poor and don't even have swimming pools How then could poor woman can afford that expensive costume...????

Muslim men swim as the Christian men in oceans and seas....as well as swimming pools but in gender separated zones!!

Some serious hangups there. I guess the poor ones swim in a potatoe sack or the like.

 

[mazHur]

I meant our Criminal/court laws....not religious ones...I too believe in freedom to practice your own religion...I find it hypocritical though, that we allow there freedoms, yet they protest our Christian ones...our dress etc..I guess assimilate is the wrong word...maybe tolerance would be better..but it HAS to work both ways...and I all too often I DON'T see tolerance towards OUR freedoms and values.
I am willing to bet there are no Christian churches or Xmas decorations in a Muslim country...but I hope I'm wrong.

Yes, Muslims have no right to object to your way of life...and vice versa.

There are churches-lots of them- in every Muslim country...except Mecca and Madina which are deemed as
Holy Cities by the Muslims....even different Muslims sects are NOT allowed to raise sectarian worship places there!