Belief or Disbelief in a God or Other Deity

[BornReady]

Read my quote. That sums up my feelings.

I like your quote.

Superfluous? Lost me there....perhaps the use of the term "superfluous" was superfluous in this instance, lol.

Pierre-Simon Laplace wrote an astronomy book at the beginning of the 19th century. Napoleon heard that the book contained no mention of God. When Laplace present him with a copy, Napoleon remarked, "M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator." Laplace famously replied, "Sir, I had no need of that hypothesis."

Neuroscience can say the same about souls today. The current hypothesis explains thoughts, emotions and memories as electrochemical processes in the brain. That is why I said souls are superfluous.

I doubt there is life after death but I don't know that. My point is the question itself is jumping the gun. We haven't even established that souls or intelligent energy exist yet much less what happens to them when we die.

 

[skyblue]

1. None of us has ever seen a deity of any kind

many people claim to have seen extra terrestials

 

[BornReady]

many people claim to have seen extra terrestials

True. In a way, extra terrestrials are just modern deities.

 

[skyblue]

True. In a way, extra terrestrials are just modern deities.

theres a missing link between primates and early 'true humans'....imagine if you were that those primates were given an evolutionary 'boost' by a greater,more sophisticated civilisation..........and imagine the scenario that NASA finds a humanoid species,perhaps 3'000 years behind man in developement terms....do you think its conceivable that they'd give them a set of rules to live by.......the 10 commandments?

 

[brieze]

I like your quote.

some smart guy said it..

 

[BornReady]

do you think its conceivable that they'd give them a set of rules to live by.......the 10 commandments?

Personally, I would hope they could come up with something better than the ten commandments. I mean... kill people for picking up sticks on Saturday? But I suppose it's possible the ancient Hebrews misunderstood what the deity or aliens were trying to communicate.

My skepticism with the extraterrestrials-among-us belief is due to the absence of verifiable evidence. Also, I can't imagine why aliens would come all this way to probe us anally. That sounds more like the creation of a sexually obsessed man/woman, not that I'm knocking sexually obsessed men/women.

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm thinking about why God would tell us to have no other Gods before him. Isn't he/it supposed to be the only God? What's this about being jealous? Isn't that along the line of a sin??

1. Have no other God Before me.
2. No carved images cause I am a jealous God?
3. No name of Lord in vain.
4. Don't work on Sabbath.
5. Honor Father/Mother.
6. No Murder
7. No Adultry
8. No Steal
9. No False Witness
10. No Coveting other people's wives and servants.

 

[Diggin Deep]

I'm thinking about why God would tell us to have no other Gods before him. Isn't he/it supposed to be the only God? What's this about being jealous? Isn't that along the line of a sin??

1. Have no other God Before me.
2. No carved images cause I am a jealous God?
3. No name of Lord in vain.
4. Don't work on Sabbath.
5. Honor Father/Mother.
6. No Murder
7. No Adultry
8. No Steal
9. No False Witness
10. No Coveting other people's wives and servants.

It is important to understand how the word “jealous” is used. Its use in Exodus 20:5 to describe God is different from how it is used to describe the sin of jealousy (Galatians 5:20). When we use the word “jealous,” we use it in the sense of being envious of someone who has something we do not have. A person might be jealous or envious of another person because he or she has a nice car or home (possessions). Or a person might be jealous or envious of another person because of some ability or skill that other person has (such as athletic ability). Another example would be that one person might be jealous or envious of another because of his or her beauty.

In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs. Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.

In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.

Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that God declares to belong to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols. This is precisely the jealousy the apostle Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy...”

 

[hart]

I'm a Unitarian. I believe there are powers in this world but I don't know what form they take. I'm willing to learn whatever anyone/thing wants to show me.

 

[Greatest I am]

This is an interesting subject that can get emotionally charged. I'd like to learn others beliefs or non-beliefs. The intent here is not to make anyone wrong, or to bash believers or Atheists, but just to talk about it. I think we can all agree up front that:

1. None of us has ever seen a deity of any kind

and

2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die.

I cannot say I saw exactly but I did touch.

I also believe that I know what happens to our consciousness at death.

It uploads to a cosmic consciousness.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian with some Deist thrown in.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

10. No Coveting other people's wives and servants.

This is a verse worth quoting in its entirety.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. - Deuteronomy 5:21

Does anyone else get the feeling the ancient Hebrews thought of wives as property?

Anyway, coveting is good. Stealing is bad. If you want something then work hard to get it fairly. Any moral guide that doesn't make this distinction is lacking. Btw, this doesn't apply to someone's wife because women are not property of course.

By servants, I believe the ancient Hebrews meant slaves. Enough said. Look for another moral guide. I recommend humanism.

 

[BornReady]

I'm a Unitarian. I believe there are powers in this world but I don't know what form they take. I'm willing to learn whatever anyone/thing wants to show me.

I'm a secular humanist but I go to a UU church. It's a good church.

 

[Minor Axis]

[/SIZE]


It is important to understand how the word “jealous” is used. Its use in Exodus 20:5 to describe God is different from how it is used to describe the sin of jealousy (Galatians 5:20). When we use the word “jealous,” we use it in the sense of being envious of someone who has something we do not have. A person might be jealous or envious of another person because he or she has a nice car or home (possessions). Or a person might be jealous or envious of another person because of some ability or skill that other person has (such as athletic ability). Another example would be that one person might be jealous or envious of another because of his or her beauty.

In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs. Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.

In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.

Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that God declares to belong to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols. This is precisely the jealousy the apostle Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy...”

Despite your dissection of the word jealous, this appears (to me) to be the view of man, not expressed by God. It would be much better he/she/it had said, "hey idiots, I'm the only God. Waste your time worshiping an inert gold calf if you want, but it's not gonna get you anywhere". Jealousy is completely the wrong word to use. Yes there could be some translation issues, but I'm not convinced these are the words of a supreme being. It's what primative man might imagine how a deity would act and think.

 

[Tim]

...2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die...

....but I admit I would like to think it possible. If matter can be neither created nor destroyed, then our energy continues in some fashion. Will we be aware of this energy as we are now? THAT is the question I would love to have answered....

...No, I do not mean "soul" in the religious sense. I mean the life energy that propels you, that makes you who you are, that is you. This life force energy is in every living being. The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a system remains constant over time. A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a system is that it can change form, hence my question. The human body is indeed a system of energy, and not only that, this system of energy is operated by some form of internal intelligence. When the vehicle of the human body breaks down, where does the energy go? Could this intelligent energy seek another vessel?.

How is this any different from those who believe in a spiritual afterlife?

If we actually do have some sort of "life force" where did it come from? Was it brought over by the sperm, the egg or a combination of the two? Because like you said, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Does that mean our "life force" was always in existence?
If we do have a "life force" that we received from our parents, doesn't that mean it isn't truly ours, it's just a part of our parents? If it is unique, then where did it come from and how did it come into existence?

For me, I do not believe in a soul or any thing that continues after death. I believe when we develop in the womb, at some point there is enough brain matter to slowly turn on. Think of a computer being built. At some point the computer has enough parts to turn on and as long as there is electric being supplied, it's alive. But once it's off, it's off.
I can build this computer, have it exist for a period of time and dismantle it completely all without breaking the laws of conservation of energy. So why are we any different? It won't be long until we are able to build a computer so sophisticated that it thinks for itself, that has feelings and is self aware. Will it then by definition have a "life force"?

 

[Diggin Deep]

Despite your dissection of the word jealous, this appears (to me) to be the view of man, not expressed by God. It would be much better he/she/it had said, "hey idiots, I'm the only God. Waste your time worshiping an inert gold calf if you want, but it's not gonna get you anywhere". Jealousy is completely the wrong word to use. Yes there could be some translation issues, but I'm not convinced these are the words of a supreme being. It's what primative man might imagine how a deity would act and think.

Just trying to offer another way of looking at things Axis.

 

[BornReady]

Jealousy is completely the wrong word to use. Yes there could be some translation issues, but I'm not convinced these are the words of a supreme being. It's what primative man might imagine how a deity would act and think.

I agree. This is a good illustration of just how egocentric people are. We have an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God on one hand and an uneducated, primitive, mortal goat herder on the other. And God is jealous for the goat herder's affection. Apparently even gods revolve around men.

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree. This is a good illustration of just how egocentric people are. We have an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God on one hand and an uneducated, primitive, mortal goat herder on the other. And God is jealous for the goat herder's affection. Apparently even gods revolve around men.

Without man, what is God?
Nothing.
That is why man has a need for acceptance but a God would never create a dependence for himself by creating that need of groveling men.

I guess that is why scripture says we are slaves to sin and must be reborn as slaves to God.

Slavery is so passé.

Regards
DL

 

[Minor Axis]

How is this any different from those who believe in a spiritual afterlife?

If we actually do have some sort of "life force" where did it come from? Was it brought over by the sperm, the egg or a combination of the two? Because like you said, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Does that mean our "life force" was always in existence?
If we do have a "life force" that we received from our parents, doesn't that mean it isn't truly ours, it's just a part of our parents? If it is unique, then where did it come from and how did it come into existence?

For me, I do not believe in a soul or any thing that continues after death. I believe when we develop in the womb, at some point there is enough brain matter to slowly turn on. Think of a computer being built. At some point the computer has enough parts to turn on and as long as there is electric being supplied, it's alive. But once it's off, it's off.
I can build this computer, have it exist for a period of time and dismantle it completely all without breaking the laws of conservation of energy. So why are we any different? It won't be long until we are able to build a computer so sophisticated that it thinks for itself, that has feelings and is self aware. Will it then by definition have a "life force"?

It's obvious that there is much more that we don't know than what we do know. You are making your decisions on what we can observe which is ok, but I prefer to hold off judgement about a possible realm I'm ignorant about. It's just as much a speculative philosophical issue as a science based issue.

 

[Tim]

It's obvious that there is much more that we don't know than what we do know. You are making your decisions on what we can observe which is ok, but I prefer to hold off judgement about a possible realm I'm ignorant about. It's just as much a speculative philosophical issue as a science based issue.

I can understand this point... but when you do this with absolutely no basis of fact, you are doing nothing more than throwing a dart into the vast universe of possibilities.

So when someone says they believe their soul continues on after death, they should be given the same credibility as someone who believes in an eternal lake of fire to torment lost souls, or the individual who believes in reincarnation, aliens, planet Xenu, planet X, that we become stars, (insert every flight of fancy imaginable here)

Here is my point in a nut shell...
Because the idea of an afterlife is created out of our own imagination, we can conclude that it's as likely as any other dreamed up piece of fiction. Just because more people buy into the theory to comfort their own minds does not make it any more credible. So the Scientologist is just as correct as the Christian as is the spiritualist.... They all have the same credibility, right?

 

[Johnfromokc]

How is this any different from those who believe in a spiritual afterlife?

Technically, perhaps it's not. I simply admit I do not know, I only observe and ponder.

If we actually do have some sort of "life force" where did it come from? Was it brought over by the sperm, the egg or a combination of the two? Because like you said, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Does that mean our "life force" was always in existence?

It's as good a hypothesis as any that our life force was always in existence.

If we do have a "life force" that we received from our parents, doesn't that mean it isn't truly ours, it's just a part of our parents? If it is unique, then where did it come from and how did it come into existence?

Did we recieve it from our parents? Neither you nor I nor anyone else knows for sure.

For me, I do not believe in a soul or any thing that continues after death. I believe when we develop in the womb, at some point there is enough brain matter to slowly turn on. Think of a computer being built. At some point the computer has enough parts to turn on and as long as there is electric being supplied, it's alive. But once it's off, it's off.

What is our "electric" being supplied? Where does our "electric" come from? Where is the "on/off switch located?

I can build this computer, have it exist for a period of time and dismantle it completely all without breaking the laws of conservation of energy. So why are we any different? It won't be long until we are able to build a computer so sophisticated that it thinks for itself, that has feelings and is self aware. Will it then by definition have a "life force"?

I don't think we will ever build such a self aware, feeling computer. This is much like the "battery" explanation of life many of my Atheist friends repeat which goes right alongside the "unicorn" analogy.

We create batteries, computers and other machines out of our own imaginations within our own limitations and understanding. I have yet to meet anyone who truly "understands" life and where it came from, and where it is going.

For me, I'll make no such conclusion as yours because I'm simply in a state of wonder of this experience called life. I love to ponder it, feel it, taste it and experience it in every way that is right for me. Why limit ones self? Until we know for certian where life comes from and where life goes, Atheists that "know" there is no after life are no different than believers who "know" there is a heaven and a hell.