Belief or Disbelief in a God or Other Deity

[Johnfromokc]

This is an interesting subject that can get emotionally charged. I'd like to learn others beliefs or non-beliefs. The intent here is not to make anyone wrong, or to bash believers or Atheists, but just to talk about it. I think we can all agree up front that:

1. None of us has ever seen a deity of any kind

and

2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die.

Given these two facts that I am convinced we all have in common, we as human mammals have developed a myriad of beliefs in societies across the planet. I think most beliefs are cultural and dependent upon where one was born and the predominant beliefs of the family one was born into. Does it make sense that one's cosmic eternal fate rests mainly upon geographical birth? This was a question I asked myself from the time I became self-aware as a child and began to wonder about my origin, and the origin of humanity.

The Christian society I was born in essentially stated that we were all born in "sin" (whatever that is defined as) and had to spend our lives seeking forgivness, otherwise we were doomed to an etermity in Hell. This is the general premise of Christianity, regardless of whether one is Protestant or Catholic, or which sub-sect of those two macro-religions one chooses to practice.

I have been a self-taught student of the sub-concious mind since I was about 22. I'm 47 now, so for the past 25 years, I have been learning all that I can about how the human mind operates. Through personal experience, I have come to believe we are all connected in some fashion through our sub-concious minds. Call it "Collective Conciousness", and think of it like the telepathic version World Wide Web. It is reasonable, I think, to contemplate that this thing we call the Internet is modeled after our own Collective Conciousness. We naturally seek this connection, after all, we were are all drawn here to this forum to connect with other human minds. This connection we seek is what I believe many people intuitively feel is "God".

I think everyone has experienced synchronicity at some level, some greater than others. Ever thought of someone you have not heard from in a long time, then the phone rings and it is that person? I've had many personal synchronicity experiences - coincidences? Perhaps. But I have come to know that the process of directed thinking is far more powerful than most people believe. I have also come to know that the vast majority of people do little to control or direct their thoughts. If one is not careful, negative thoughts can permeate ones mind and lead to the culmination of poor life experiences that are often chalked up to bad luck or events seemingly out of ones control. Directing ones thinking is not always easy, but it is attainable if one works at it.

To me, being self-aware, directing one's thoughts, and seeking connection with this Collective Conciousness is likely quite similar to what believers are seeking when they say they are seeking a relationship with "God".

What say you forum friends?

 

[Minor Axis]

This is an interesting subject that can get emotionally charged. I'd like to learn others beliefs or non-beliefs. The intent here is not to make anyone wrong, or to bash believers or Atheists, but just to talk about it. I think we can all agree up front that:

1. None of us has ever seen a deity of any kind

and

2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die.

Given these two facts that I am convinced we all have in common, we as human mammals have developed a myriad of beliefs in societies across the planet. I think most beliefs are cultural and dependent upon where one was born and the predominant beliefs of the family one was born into. Does it make sense that one's cosmic eternal fate rests mainly upon geographical birth? This was a question I asked myself from the time I became self-aware as a child and began to wonder about my origin, and the origin of humanity.

Not really. A lot of people don't think in terms of Christianity is prevalent around here so the odds are I will be Christian. They think I am Christian because it is the truth.

The Christian society I was born in essentially stated that we were all born in "sin" (whatever that is defined as) and had to spend our lives seeking forgivness, otherwise we were doomed to an etermity in Hell. This is the general premise of Christianity, regardless of whether one is Protestant or Catholic, or which sub-sect of those two macro-religions one chooses to practice.

A very good reason to question the merits of traditional Christian belief.

I have been a self-taught student of the sub-concious mind since I was about 22. I'm 47 now, so for the past 25 years, I have been learning all that I can about how the human mind operates. Through personal experience, I have come to believe we are all connected in some fashion through our sub-concious minds. Call it "Collective Conciousness", and think of it like the telepathic version World Wide Web. It is reasonable, I think, to contemplate that this thing we call the Internet is modeled after our own Collective Conciousness. We naturally seek this connection, after all, we were are all drawn here to this forum to connect with other human minds. This connection we seek is what I believe many people intuitively feel is "God".

That is possible although the value and utility of such a connection is hazy. If an individual feels a general sense of "well being" it is difficult to identify it's source, whether it be the brain in isolation, a collective consciousness, or God's network.

I think everyone has experienced synchronicity at some level, some greater than others. Ever thought of someone you have not heard from in a long time, then the phone rings and it is that person? I've had many personal synchronicity experiences - coincidences? Perhaps. But I have come to know that the process of directed thinking is far more powerful than most people believe. I have also come to know that the vast majority of people do little to control or direct their thoughts. If one is not careful, negative thoughts can permeate ones mind and lead to the culmination of poor life experiences that are often chalked up to bad luck or events seemingly out of ones control. Directing ones thinking is not always easy, but it is attainable if one works at it.

To me, being self-aware, directing one's thoughts, and seeking connection with this Collective Conciousness is likely quite similar to what believers are seeking when they say they are seeking a relationship with "God".

Your theory is a good as any other. This comment is not ment to belittle. So how do you feel about spirituality, the possibility that consciousness continues beyond physical death? This is much more speculative than the investigation into the collective consciousness.

 

[HK]

2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die.

I think everyone can accept your first point, but I think you'll get some argument about the second one. A lot of people do claim to know.

Personally I agree with both your points, and my own beliefs are that even if there is something out there, it doesn't appear to have a personal interest in us, so our actions don't matter either way, so you might as well get on with it and not worry about pleasing a probably uninterested greater being, if it even exists.

 

[Minor Axis]

I think everyone can accept your first point, but I think you'll get some argument about the second one. A lot of people do claim to know.

Personally I agree with both your points, and my own beliefs are that even if there is something out there, it doesn't appear to have a personal interest in us, so our actions don't matter either way, so you might as well get on with it and not worry about pleasing a probably uninterested greater being, if it even exists.

I tend not to believe that any deity that exists micromanages the world and our lives, but even as an Agnostic, I can't help but feel (at times) that the good things that happen to me somehow are not completely by chance. I am the first to acknowledge this is most likely a manifestation of my brain.

If the evidence is considered, it's fairly certain that a deity does not reward us in this life for being good, and punish for being bad. There are way too many examples to the contrary. Such reward could come later, but it's not my belief, just a philosophical point of discussion.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Personally I agree with both your points, and my own beliefs are that even if there is something out there, it doesn't appear to have a personal interest in us, so our actions don't matter either way, so you might as well get on with it and not worry about pleasing a probably uninterested greater being, if it even exists.

Classical Agnostic thought. Beautiful! I agree with your assessment with the exception that our actions do matter for our own well being and the well being of others. But I understand your intent. To live attempting to please this disinterested deity is to live a guilt ridden life, always wondering if your actions that please you and your loved ones are actually displeasing to this cosmic imaginary being.

 

[HK]

To clarify, I don't mean that we can do whatever the fuck we want! Haha but that we shouldn't edit our actions for the sake of some deity - it should be because it's better to be a good person for the sake of being a good person.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Not really. A lot of people don't think in terms of Christianity is prevalent around here so the odds are I will be Christian. They think I am Christian because it is the truth.

Indeed, but they were born to families that believed it is the truth, and it was taught to them as truth, so they now accept it as truth. Most religion is genetic in that sense.

Your theory is a good as any other. This comment is not ment to belittle. So how do you feel about spirituality, the possibility that consciousness continues beyond physical death? This is much more speculative than the investigation into the collective consciousness.

No offense taken. It is a truly only my hypothesis as opposed to actual theory. I feel that "spirituality" is that human desire for connection to Collective Conciousness. Does our "aliveness" continue in some fashion after death? I have no clue, but I admit I would like to think it possible. If matter can be neither created nor destroyed, then our energy continues in some fashion. Will we be aware of this energy as we are now? THAT is the question I would love to have answered.

 

[Minor Axis]

To clarify, I don't mean that we can do whatever the fuck we want! Haha but that we shouldn't edit our actions for the sake of some deity - it should be because it's better to be a good person for the sake of being a good person.

There are many people who believe being good for the sake of being good, must originate from God/religion. Of course, I disagree. More than being told "what is right", you must know what is right. In essence morals come from within, not from an external source.

Does our "aliveness" continue in some fashion after death? I have no clue, but I admit I would like to think it possible. If matter can be neither created nor destroyed, then our energy continues in some fashion. Will we be aware of this energy as we are now? THAT is the question I would love to have answered.

Indeed, this is THE QUESTION! A dust-to-dust Atheist, will tell you they don't believe. But I would counter that we don't know enough to believe or disbelieve, it is unknown, unless the individual's definition of disbelief covers everything that can't be proven which imo, is an approach which has very little certainty due to the lack of information and can't possibly reach the level where any meaningful judgment can be reasonably made.

 

[Dana]

im a believer that is all... i also like to believe in reincarnation.

 

[Minor Axis]

im a believer that is all... i also like to believe in reincarnation.

A believer in what- God? If so what characteristics does your God have and upon what substance have you based this belief?

 

[BornReady]

I think we can all agree up front that:

1. None of us has ever seen a deity of any kind

and

2. None of us actually knows what happens to our personal awareness when we die.

You may not get as much agreement on these points as you think.

On the first point, no one has ever proven it but many people claim to have seen and/or heard a supernatural being.

On the second point, many people think they know. From my perspective, the question itself is erroneous. By "personal awareness" I assume you mean soul. No one has demonstrated souls exist. They're invisible, mass-less and superfluous. So it's jumping the gun at the very least to ask what happens to a soul when the body dies. It's like asking what happens to unicorns when they die.

 

[Peter Parka]

Indeed, but they were born to families that believed it is the truth, and it was taught to them as truth, so they now accept it as truth. Most religion is genetic in that sense.

I was raised in a cult which brainwashed me day in, day out but in timeI realised it was a load of nonsensical shit. If people have a reasonable level of intelligence, they can work things out for themself regardless of background.

On the first point, no one has ever proven it but many people claim to have seen and/or heard a supernatural being.

Yes, the're called schizophrenics.

 

[BornReady]

Yes, the're called schizophrenics.

lol My father-in-law told me he saw a demon once and my mother-in-law says she saw an angel. Neither one are playing with a full deck but I wouldn't go so far as schizophrenic.

 

[Zorak]

I am a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all.

 

[Skorpy]

I am not at all religious.

I don't believe in God. I do believe there was such a person as jesus. But from some stories down the line, I hear he was a troublemaker, and this is why he was put on the cross. I do not believe he had powers.

Short, but sweet...and this is just my thoughts and opinions. Sorry if I offend anyones beliefs

Come to the dark side lol.

 

[NuckingFuts]

I am not at all religious.

I don't believe in God. I do believe there was such a person as jesus. But from some stories down the line, I hear he was a troublemaker, and this is why he was put on the cross. I do not believe he had powers.

Short, but sweet...and this is just my thoughts and opinions. Sorry if I offend anyones beliefs

Come to the dark side lol.

The dark side has sexy legs!



Alright im out of this thread.

 

[Johnfromokc]

You may not get as much agreement on these points as you think.

Only from rational individuals. There's no accounting for the thoughts of those who have chosen a belief system that defies logic.

By "personal awareness" I assume you mean soul. No one has demonstrated souls exist. They're invisible, mass-less and superfluous. So it's jumping the gun at the very least to ask what happens to a soul when the body dies.

No, I do not mean "soul" in the religious sense. I mean the life energy that propels you, that makes you who you are, that is you. This life force energy is in every living being. The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a system remains constant over time. A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a system is that it can change form, hence my question. The human body is indeed a system of energy, and not only that, this system of energy is operated by some form of internal intelligence. When the vehicle of the human body breaks down, where does the energy go? Could this intelligent energy seek another vessel?

Please do not respond with the "battery" analogy. It's only slightly less tedious than the unicorn analogy in discussions of this nature.

They're invisible, mass-less and superfluous.

Superfluous? Lost me there....perhaps the use of the term "superfluous" was superfluous in this instance, lol.

Electricity is invisible and massless is it not? As far as I know, and I've been a student of electricity since 1988, no one has ever weighed or seen electricity.

It's like asking what happens to unicorns when they die.

This unicorn analogy is over-used by some Atheists to deride Christians to the point of tedium. We can discuss the issue on a higher level than this can't we?

 

[Minor Axis]

You may not get as much agreement on these points as you think.

On the first point, no one has ever proven it but many people claim to have seen and/or heard a supernatural being.

On the second point, many people think they know. From my perspective, the question itself is erroneous. By "personal awareness" I assume you mean soul. No one has demonstrated souls exist. They're invisible, mass-less and superfluous. So it's jumping the gun at the very least to ask what happens to a soul when the body dies. It's like asking what happens to unicorns when they die.

I disagree in that the concept of "soul" has been with us as long as we've been able to consider the possibility. It's an outstanding philosophical discussion. I'm not saying that specific conclusions will be reached but that it sparks consideration of our place in the Universe and is a stepping stone from what can be proven/observed to what is beyond that limitation.

I was raised in a cult which brainwashed me day in, day out but in timeI realised it was a load of nonsensical shit. If people have a reasonable level of intelligence, they can work things out for themself regardless of background.

Yes, the're called schizophrenics.

What religion where you raised in?

Religion is personal. You may even go as far as saying each person's reality is personal and could be unique. Usually I'm in these discussions picking apart theist views, but I acknowledge that as a noncommittal Agnostic there could be something on the edge of our senses yet to be determined. However, this is not a defense of organized religion who tells you what God is, thinks, how it regards us, what it expects from us, and its rules to allow us into the Special Place after our physical bodies (as we know them) die.

I am not at all religious.

I don't believe in God. I do believe there was such a person as jesus. But from some stories down the line, I hear he was a troublemaker, and this is why he was put on the cross. I do not believe he had powers.

Short, but sweet...and this is just my thoughts and opinions. Sorry if I offend anyones beliefs

Come to the dark side lol.

No reasonable person should be offended by this kind of difference of opinion. However there are limits.

Only from rational individuals. There's no accounting for the thoughts of those who have chosen a belief system that defies logic.

If a belief system defies logic is it impossible? I'm arguing both sides of the coin today. I agree that when it comes to science we must analyze what we can see, feel, and touch and that for all practicality it serves us well.

No, I do not mean "soul" in the religious sense. I mean the life energy that propels you, that makes you who you are, that is you. This life force energy is in every living being. The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a system remains constant over time. A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a system is that it can change form, hence my question. The human body is indeed a system of energy, and not only that, this system of energy is operated by some form of internal intelligence. When the vehicle of the human body breaks down, where does the energy go? Could this intelligent energy seek another vessel?

The coolest observation is that as organisms, we control this energy and direct it. Can the mechanics and intelligence to do this be completely attributed to chemicals forming in an organism and controlled by an organic brain? Do we completely understand the spark of life or is there something outside of our ability to analyze?

 

[BornReady]

When the vehicle of the human body breaks down, where does the energy go? Could this intelligent energy seek another vessel?

No one has demonstrated that intelligent energy exists either. Asking what happens to your intelligent energy when you die is like asking what happens to your soul when you die or what happens to unicorns when they die.

Btw, I don't intend my unicorn analogy to deride anyone, only to help people see that asking the nature of something that hasn't been proven to exist is jumping the gun.

 

[brieze]

Read my quote. That sums up my feelings.