Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

[Greatest I am]

To test Job whether he would disown God

Why kill to test when you are omnipotent and already know the outcome because of the plan?

Why try to impress Satan?
Is God just a braggart?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

God cast Satan and the angels who followed him out of heaven. Because Lucipher caused an uprising and wanted to take the throne for himself. If I'm remembering correctly. So in that sense, God didn't "create" Satan. He created things with free will, and sometimes that makes people do evil things. In the sense of a hell, I don't really believe in that whole fire and brimstone burning for eternity type thing.I think, for those people who do bad things like killing people and rape and stuff like that, they could get more of like...a second chance I guess. To try and do it right. And who knows, maybe that's wrong and there is a hell..because some would argue that the type of person you are is within your "soul" and therefore, no matter how many times you have to live a temporary, mortal life (which kinda seems pretty hellish in and of itself), you'll never BE a better person.

I don't know what I think the right conditions are for going to hell versus heaven. I think it's wrong that there are perfectly good people out there that are told they're going to hell just because they have different beliefs than someone else. But, in the same right, what ARE the conditions for being admitted into heaven? No one will be good enough by the bible's version of God's standards to get in. I like the story of Jesus on the cross and taking all of the sin in the world on himself. But, just because someone doesn't believe that that happened doesn't much seem a fair reason to not let someone in.

Man, the more I talk to you guys about this stuff, the more I don't understand...lol

I wrote this a while back on people trying to profit from the murder of an innocent man as you seem to like.

Rethink your poor moral position please.

Is Jesus your personal beast of burden?

Here are a few links where the authors think that vicarious redemption or blood atonement is immoral. I tend to agree with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9XIh-BPio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS-3xTIdrFA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huorq...eature=related

http://www.truegnosticchurch.org/top...atonement.html

http://www.thenazareneway.com/vicarious_atonement.htm

http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

http://acimmessages.blogspot.com/



Believers should know that a hero is carried by his fans and not the other way around.

If getting into heaven can only be done by profiting from the murder of an innocent Jesus then heaven is an immoral place.

Do you see God pleased with everyone riding on the shoulders of an innocent victim to get into heaven?

I see God wanting to see all sinners carrying Jesus as a hero and not a beast of sinners burdens.

Who should bear the blame for sins? Jesus or the sinner?

Who would likely wants to see Jesus bent to the ground burdened by the responsibilities of sinners?

God or Satan?

Regards
DL

 

[TommyTooter]

God cast Satan and the angels who followed him out of heaven. Because Lucipher caused an uprising and wanted to take the throne for himself. If I'm remembering correctly. So in that sense, God didn't "create" Satan. He created things with free will, and sometimes that makes people do evil things. In the sense of a hell, I don't really believe in that whole fire and brimstone burning for eternity type thing.I think, for those people who do bad things like killing people and rape and stuff like that, they could get more of like...a second chance I guess. To try and do it right. And who knows, maybe that's wrong and there is a hell..because some would argue that the type of person you are is within your "soul" and therefore, no matter how many times you have to live a temporary, mortal life (which kinda seems pretty hellish in and of itself), you'll never BE a better person.

I don't know what I think the right conditions are for going to hell versus heaven. I think it's wrong that there are perfectly good people out there that are told they're going to hell just because they have different beliefs than someone else. But, in the same right, what ARE the conditions for being admitted into heaven? No one will be good enough by the bible's version of God's standards to get in. I like the story of Jesus on the cross and taking all of the sin in the world on himself. But, just because someone doesn't believe that that happened doesn't much seem a fair reason to not let someone in.

Man, the more I talk to you guys about this stuff, the more I don't understand...lol

can we please get some chapter and verse here when you folks are bible bashing or thumping?

i can't tell you how many times i've seen or heard those verses regurgitated by somebody and never get where in the bible it will be found. i vaguely remember seeing something like that in one of the later epistles when i gave them a quick read through just to be able to deal with evangelical paulist christians waiting for john's hallucination to come true, but satan isn't even mentioned in the old testament outside the book of job but a few times, if at all.

it is my opinion, that the lord YHVH, who is not the universal one 'ELOHIM' and satan, are the lords of the demigods over and underworlds known to the ancient greeks as ZEUS and HADES. further, i believe that the surface creatures of this planet are being protected from their conflicts by universal forces and cosmic entities of greater power than them.

they are the lords of the local universe and it seems that they are forbidden from manifesting in a material form on this world for the past few thousand years because of the havoc they wreak when they are here.

 

[anathelia]

can we please get some chapter and verse here when you folks are bible bashing or thumping?

i can't tell you how many times i've seen or heard those verses regurgitated by somebody and never get where in the bible it will be found. i vaguely remember seeing something like that in one of the later epistles when i gave them a quick read through just to be able to deal with evangelical paulist christians waiting for john's hallucination to come true, but satan isn't even mentioned in the old testament outside the book of job but a few times, if at all.

it is my opinion, that the lord YHVH, who is not the universal one 'ELOHIM' and satan, are the lords of the demigods over and underworlds known to the greeks as ZEUS and HADES. further, i believe that the surface creatures of this planet are being protected from their conflicts by universal forces and cosmic entities of greater power than them.

they are the lords of the local universe and it seems that they are forbidden from manifesting in a material form on this world for the past few thousand years because of the havoc the wreak when they are here.

I'm not bible-thumping. I stated something based on my understanding based on what I was *TAUGHT*.

I don't own a bible, so I can't find to verify if it's true, but I believe it's somewhere in Revelations.

I'm far from a bible-thumping Christian, which you would know if you had read any of my other posts. I'm trying to seek truth and understanding just like many others, but it's hard to get the bible out of your head when it's all you've been taught most of your life.

As far as your post, Greatest I am, I'm not going to justify it with a response because you took what I said completely out of context, which is unsurprising. You didn't address anything else in my post except for this one section of this ONE sentence and you think that's a fair representation of my beliefs.

 

[TommyTooter]

I'm not bible-thumping. I stated something based on my understanding based on what I was *TAUGHT*.

I don't own a bible, so I can't find to verify if it's true, but I believe it's somewhere in Revelations.

I'm far from a bible-thumping Christian, which you would know if you had read any of my other posts. I'm trying to seek truth and understanding just like many others, but it's hard to get the bible out of your head when it's all you've been taught most of your life.

As far as your post, Greatest I am, I'm not going to justify it with a response because you took what I said completely out of context, which is unsurprising. You didn't address anything else in my post except for this one section of this ONE sentence and you think that's a fair representation of my beliefs.

thumping or bashing isn't my concern. i do both, depending on which passage we're talking about. that's why i like to have chapter and verse when somebody brings something up.

sorry if i've offended you in any way. i realize my opinion of the paulist church's can be unsettling to christians who get sucked into those sects.

i'm an american born hebrew-israelite raised in the reform congregations. our rabbis and scholars most often would accept the ministry of jesus as valid within torah but would get critical of what came after. can't hardly blame them when they took so much shit for killing the guy.

 

[anathelia]

thumping or bashing isn't my concern. i do both, depending on which passage we're talking about. that's why i like to have chapter and verse when somebody brings something up.

sorry if i've offended you in any way. i realize my opinion of the paulist church's can be unsettling to christians who get sucked into those sects.

i'm an american born hebrew-israelite raised in the reform congregations. our rabbis and scholars most often would accept the ministry of jesus as valid within torah but would get critical of what came after. can't hardly blame them when they took so much shit for killing the guy.

You've not offended me. I just wanted to make sure I was clear on where my statements are coming from. From what I can find online, people are saying Revelations 12:7-12. I haven't found a copy of the text online, so I don't know.

 

[TommyTooter]

You've not offended me. I just wanted to make sure I was clear on where my statements are coming from. From what I can find online, people are saying Revelations 12:7-12. I haven't found a copy of the text online, so I don't know.

that sounds about right. i'll go get a few links to full texts and post them here in a minute.

i won't mess with conversations about the bible unless there's an open one handy. two or three different versions are nice to have around as well.

this one looks good. an online NIV in lots of different languages. i prefer that translation to most others.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

 

[Greatest I am]

can we please get some chapter and verse here when you folks are bible bashing or thumping?

i can't tell you how many times i've seen or heard those verses regurgitated by somebody and never get where in the bible it will be found. i vaguely remember seeing something like that in one of the later epistles when i gave them a quick read through just to be able to deal with evangelical paulist christians waiting for john's hallucination to come true, but satan isn't even mentioned in the old testament outside the book of job but a few times, if at all.

it is my opinion, that the lord YHVH, who is not the universal one 'ELOHIM' and satan, are the lords of the demigods over and underworlds known to the ancient greeks as ZEUS and HADES. further, i believe that the surface creatures of this planet are being protected from their conflicts by universal forces and cosmic entities of greater power than them.

they are the lords of the local universe and it seems that they are forbidden from manifesting in a material form on this world for the past few thousand years because of the havoc they wreak when they are here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc

There can only be one response to one like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6MrBl9E&feature=related

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

As far as your post, Greatest I am, I'm not going to justify it with a response because you took what I said completely out of context, which is unsurprising. You didn't address anything else in my post except for this one section of this ONE sentence and you think that's a fair representation of my beliefs.

I saw the Jesus issue as pivotal to perhaps changing your mind on your direction of seeking.
It should be based on good moral positions and I was trying to show you that yours was not and thus gain your respect in order to perhaps teach you a few things about Gnosticism.

I am sorry that I failed and that you did not see the immorality of your initial comment.

Seek and you will find but not by trying to place the responsibility for your sins on Jesus.

Regards
DL

 

[anathelia]

I saw the Jesus issue as pivotal to perhaps changing your mind on your direction of seeking.
It should be based on good moral positions and I was trying to show you that yours was not and thus gain your respect in order to perhaps teach you a few things about Gnosticism.

I am sorry that I failed and that you did not see the immorality of your initial comment.

Seek and you will find but not by trying to place the responsibility for your sins on Jesus.

Regards
DL

ha! I placed the responsibility for my sins on Jesus? That's funny.

No one has made me do the things I have done in my life. But sure as hell, no one is perfect. You'd be wise to remember that I followed that with my statement being that it seems unfair that someone who doesn't believe that Jesus hung on the cross for their sins should not be allowed to go to heaven. So, that would mean that's not necessarily what I believe in so much as what I was taught. It sounds nice in theory, especially when you consider no one FORCED Jesus to do it. He did it because he loves everyone so much. You wouldn't accept assistance from someone who cared about you if they offered it? It doesn't change the fact that the scenario is screwed up. But, if that's the only way into heaven, then that's the only way into heaven and I shouldn't be chastised for believing in that. IJS.

 

[TommyTooter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc

There can only be one response to one like you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6MrBl9E&feature=related

Regards
DL

how is anything in either of those videos relevant to any point i have tried to make here?

i have been saying straight along that the order of events given in moses' creation account is roughly the same as big bang and evolution. modern rabbis dismiss the time discrepancy because of the difference in perspective of the immortal creator and mortal man. they dismiss the scientific errors simply by the technology available to moses.

i am also saying that any conscious singular entity that may be this creator is completely beyond our comprehension and discussions of this nature are exercises in futility.

it seems to me that your posting of those two videos was your way of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la to me instead of addressing arguments of mine that might be threatening the integrity of your own belief system (BS)

 

[Greatest I am]

ha! I placed the responsibility for my sins on Jesus? That's funny.

No one has made me do the things I have done in my life. But sure as hell, no one is perfect. You'd be wise to remember that I followed that with my statement being that it seems unfair that someone who doesn't believe that Jesus hung on the cross for their sins should not be allowed to go to heaven. So, that would mean that's not necessarily what I believe in so much as what I was taught. It sounds nice in theory, especially when you consider no one FORCED Jesus to do it. He did it because he loves everyone so much. You wouldn't accept assistance from someone who cared about you if they offered it? It doesn't change the fact that the scenario is screwed up. But, if that's the only way into heaven, then that's the only way into heaven and I shouldn't be chastised for believing in that. IJS.

The only way into heaven?

Are you not aware that many before Jesus went to heaven.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Can the will of an omnipotent God be thwarted? No.

You seek perhaps but do you understand what you read?
Does the above not offer a way to salvation without a scapegoat personal beast of burden that has to die for you?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

how is anything in either of those videos relevant to any point i have tried to make here?

i have been saying straight along that the order of events given in moses' creation account is roughly the same as big bang and evolution. modern rabbis dismiss the time discrepancy because of the difference in perspective of the immortal creator and mortal man. they dismiss the scientific errors simply by the technology available to moses.

i am also saying that any conscious singular entity that may be this creator is completely beyond our comprehension and discussions of this nature are exercises in futility.

it seems to me that your posting of those two videos was your way of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la to me instead of addressing arguments of mine that might be threatening the integrity of your own belief system (BS)

"this creator is completely beyond our comprehension"

Did A & E not understand his moral side?

Why do you think you cannot? And if you cannot why follow what scripture shows as a genocidal maniac?

Regards
DL

 

[TommyTooter]

"this creator is completely beyond our comprehension"

Did A & E not understand his moral side?

Why do you think you cannot? And if you cannot why follow what scripture shows as a genocidal maniac?

Regards
DL

i wouldn't know what adam and eve understood. i wasn't there.

infinite entities cannot be comprehended and discussed rationally. i do not believe this genocidal maniac is the same as the infinite oneness that most of the non-judeo-christian religions call the godhead, life force or some such thing. i believe that entity to be what the hindu theologians call a demi-god, probably even the same one called the king of the gods by the greeks and norse in their surviving mythological fragments.

i don't know about why the christians follow the scripture the way they do, but the jews love the lord YHVH because he has repeatedly protected them from genocidal maniacs and delivered them from captivity. not always, like in the last few centuries, but certainly in those prehistoric times when he walked the world and duked it out with all his rivals like satan, amalek, baal and moloch.

according to moses' account, there were several million witnesses to the miracle at sinai. i have seen some scholars write that moses and aaron liberated enslaved people from all over the world and they witnessed the miracle of the law giving. that witness has been passed down generation to generation ever since in the liturgy of the ceremonial passover feast.

i think that might be some of what sets the jews apart from the other bible believing sects in that they have a huge body of non-canonized literature that has been evolving through the ages lacking in the other religions who only have the bible to work with.

 

[Greatest I am]

i wouldn't know what adam and eve understood. i wasn't there.

infinite entities cannot be comprehended and discussed rationally. i do not believe this genocidal maniac is the same as the infinite oneness that most of the non-judeo-christian religions call the godhead, life force or some such thing. i believe that entity to be what the hindu theologians call a demi-god, probably even the same one called the king of the gods by the greeks and norse in their surviving mythological fragments.

i don't know about why the christians follow the scripture the way they do, but the jews love the lord YHVH because he has repeatedly protected them from genocidal maniacs and delivered them from captivity. not always, like in the last few centuries, but certainly in those prehistoric times when he walked the world and duked it out with all his rivals like satan, amalek, baal and moloch.

according to moses' account, there were several million witnesses to the miracle at sinai. i have seen some scholars write that moses and aaron liberated enslaved people from all over the world and they witnessed the miracle of the law giving. that witness has been passed down generation to generation ever since in the liturgy of the ceremonial passover feast.

i think that might be some of what sets the jews apart from the other bible believing sects in that they have a huge body of non-canonized literature that has been evolving through the ages lacking in the other religions who only have the bible to work with.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

Keep your delusion. Do not expect it to serve you well in finding God.

Regards
DL

 

[anathelia]

The only way into heaven?

Are you not aware that many before Jesus went to heaven.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Can the will of an omnipotent God be thwarted? No.

You seek perhaps but do you understand what you read?
Does the above not offer a way to salvation without a scapegoat personal beast of burden that has to die for you?

Regards
DL

I'm done with you. You ignore entire parts of my posts to further your dumb argument. I said *IF*. I NEVER said that it was the only way. And regardless, you've still chosen to ignore the part where I've said TWICE now that it was what I was taught, not something that I necessarily believe.