Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

[Tuffdisc]

Who murders more of us?

Regards
DL

Satan, because it is Satan murdering not God, read chapter on Job before you accuse God of murdering

 

[Peter Parka]

Satan, because it is Satan murdering not God, read chapter on Job before you accuse God of murdering

Did satan murder the entire population of the earth bar noah and his family as well? I could swear it was god who did that.

 

[Greatest I am]

Well I for one don't believe in the existence of heaven nor heal. Also I would consider good and evil to be very subjective. I also think that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs so I don't really know where this discussion is heading.

Do you think these entitled to their own beliefs or should they be opposed?

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqGhcwwE1s

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well I wouldn't say I have a god as I seriously doubt the existance of one but plenty of people believe in a god but dont see that it makes any difference in their lives and think it's down to themselves to get out of life what they put in.

Belief in a God makes no difference!?

Ok.

Regards
DL

 

[edgray]

YHVH does have a bit of a temper, doesn't he? and he is pretty ruthless in punishing people that don't do things his way.

he makes a lot of promises to the people who listen and obey to make them want to listen and obey. according to my ancestors, he keeps them, so in keeping with the ways of my ancestor abraham, i'm not shy about questioning whether he is being fair or not.

He does have a temper in the major religious doctrines, but are they correct?

I'd much rather think of the creator as a far more understanding being. With such power as to spark the creation of this immense and truly breathtaking universe, I would hope that he would forgive our ignorances and our misbehaviour, fully understanding the complexities of our world and the variations in our lifestyles.

 

[Greatest I am]

Satan, because it is Satan murdering not God, read chapter on Job before you accuse God of murdering

Read the O T.

God millions, Satan 0.

You will also know that God is the one who told Satan to mess with Job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YOmgDtk8_M&feature=player_embedded

The Job commentary is at about the 1/2 way mark.

Regards
DL

 

[cam elle toe]

Did satan murder the entire population of the earth bar noah and his family as well? I could swear it was god who did that.

nah...it was a pole shift actually.....and Noah had his "ears on" and knew it was coming....he did try to tell everyone, but they laughed at him....thats not "Gods" fault

But I've always believed that hell is an invention of the Church to instill fear into the masses...(also not Gods fault).

 

[Carn]

I always considered the Job stuff to be really confusing. God let Satan kill his entire family just to prove a point... That doesn't sound at all as a good and loving god. Now I don't really consider the bible as any source of authority.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Did satan murder the entire population of the earth bar noah and his family as well? I could swear it was god who did that.

That was because of their sins, God doesn't murder those who do right

 

[Tuffdisc]

I always considered the Job stuff to be really confusing. God let Satan kill his entire family just to prove a point... That doesn't sound at all as a good and loving god. Now I don't really consider the bible as any source of authority.

To test Job whether he would disown God

 

[Carn]

Well yeah, but Job never did anything agains god so he had no reason to assume Job will disown him. I'm just saying killing his family wasn't really cool. I think Job should disown him the moment he knew it was just a stupid test provoked by satan.

 

[anathelia]

God cast Satan and the angels who followed him out of heaven. Because Lucipher caused an uprising and wanted to take the throne for himself. If I'm remembering correctly. So in that sense, God didn't "create" Satan. He created things with free will, and sometimes that makes people do evil things. In the sense of a hell, I don't really believe in that whole fire and brimstone burning for eternity type thing.I think, for those people who do bad things like killing people and rape and stuff like that, they could get more of like...a second chance I guess. To try and do it right. And who knows, maybe that's wrong and there is a hell..because some would argue that the type of person you are is within your "soul" and therefore, no matter how many times you have to live a temporary, mortal life (which kinda seems pretty hellish in and of itself), you'll never BE a better person.

I don't know what I think the right conditions are for going to hell versus heaven. I think it's wrong that there are perfectly good people out there that are told they're going to hell just because they have different beliefs than someone else. But, in the same right, what ARE the conditions for being admitted into heaven? No one will be good enough by the bible's version of God's standards to get in. I like the story of Jesus on the cross and taking all of the sin in the world on himself. But, just because someone doesn't believe that that happened doesn't much seem a fair reason to not let someone in.

Man, the more I talk to you guys about this stuff, the more I don't understand...lol

 

[Peter Parka]

That was because of their sins, God doesn't murder those who do right

What sins did the entire population of the world commit including children and babies?

Oh yeah, they didn't give god any attention. Well I'm convincinced, they definately deserves to drown for that!

 

[Tuffdisc]

Well yeah, but Job never did anything agains god so he had no reason to assume Job will disown him. I'm just saying killing his family wasn't really cool. I think Job should disown him the moment he knew it was just a stupid test provoked by satan.

No, Job never knew it was a test from God

 

[Tuffdisc]

What sins did the entire population of the world commit including children and babies?

Oh yeah, they didn't give god any attention. Well I'm convincinced, they definately deserves to drown for that!

It's not for me to determined why God killed babies and children, I wasn't around at the time

 

[Peter Parka]

It's not for me to determined why God killed babies and children, I wasn't around at the time

But you feel the need to justify it. Funny that.

 

[TommyTooter]

He does have a temper in the major religious doctrines, but are they correct?

I'd much rather think of the creator as a far more understanding being. With such power as to spark the creation of this immense and truly breathtaking universe, I would hope that he would forgive our ignorances and our misbehaviour, fully understanding the complexities of our world and the variations in our lifestyles.

i don't know. both he, his rival and their minions have made themselves very real to me in the spiritual plane in my mind's eye. i've also had uweepee healing ceremony performed by chief leonard crow dog of the rosebud lakota band and the spirits of his grandfather, spotted tail and several others were made manifest in such a way that i could see their ethereal forms with my eyes.

i think part of the problem in understanding god is that YHVH is not the entity that is the infinite creative oneness. in moses' genesis account, when read in hebrew from the beginning, the word 'god' appears as 'elohim' and only after creation is completed and what the christians call the second creation or the garden of eden story starts, god is now called 'lord god' which appears in hebrew as YHVH.

the main part of the problem is that we are living in a world that has apparently been quarantined from the rest of the cosmos, most likely to correct the shit that went down that's described in the fragments that have survived the ravages of time.

the books that i believe we can have the most confidence in being reasonably factual, though allegorized in the stories prior to the time of abraham, is the torah, the first five books attributed to moses' authorship. most of the rest of the books that comprise the rest of the scriptures were written by scribes and should probably be given some merit for their factual bases, including the gospels, canonized and rejected by canon.

i know that the torah scroll has been meticulously transcribed pen stroke by pen stroke for thousands of years. there is a solid line of succession in handling the rest of the old testament through the ages as well.

the same cannot be said for the new testament. there have been too many doctrinal breaches between church/state empires that have impacted the new testament's content and without knowing enough about it, would not be surprised to discover a similar impact on the quran due to the changes in islamic empires over the ages.

my hypothesis is that there is a correlation between the myths of the various peoples of the world that points to a race of highly advanced people and aliens who were the gods. my thinking is that YHVH is also the one known as odin or zeus. i don't have a good enough handle on the other religions to identify which of their gods he might have been.

i haven't studied it in depth in a long time, but when i was, the writings of eric von daniken and brad steiger stood out along with joseph campbell. there are all sorts of clues in the fiction of people like hp lovecraft, doris lessing and robert anton wilson. there's some non-fiction called 'initiation' by elisabeth haich that's got some real eye-opening passages in it.

 

[BornReady]

I grew up in a fundamentalist home. I was taught hell was a literal place of eternal torment and I believed it. Once I got out from under the mind control of fundamentalism I abandoned that belief. I discussed hell with people and was amazed to find out how few believed in a traditional hell. I had thought all Christians believed that. It turns out just a few of the Christians I talked to were still trapped in the dark ages. It was a real eye opener for me.

 

[TommyTooter]

I grew up in a fundamentalist home. I was taught hell was a literal place of eternal torment and I believed it. Once I got out from under the mind control of fundamentalism I abandoned that belief. I discussed hell with people and was amazed to find out how few believed in a traditional hell. I had thought all Christians believed that. It turns out just a few of the Christians I talked to were still trapped in the dark ages. It was a real eye opener for me.

hell just isn't part of the jewish scenario. we do our suffering in this world, do our penance on a per sin basis with the annual sweep on yom kippur and when we die we go to heaven and wait our turn to be born again into this world.

i think that the conscious raising of the 60's exposed a lot of people to theological doctrine that wasn't judeo-christian as well as bring a realization to people that the 20th century AD was a whole lot different than it was 2 or 3 millennia ago when the scriptures were written and that maybe there were some adjustments in understanding needed to apply them to life in modern times.

john lennon's tune imagine is a good example of that more modern mindset.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM0Z75KEd_o

 

[Greatest I am]

That was because of their sins, God doesn't murder those who do right

What sin did the innocent children and babies do?
What sin did the animals do?

Regards
DL