Angels

[Minor Axis]

Well if you think about it, the non-existence of God IS a fact, as there is no evidence nor proof of any kind to the contrary. It is true by default. At this moment in time, God does not exist except in people's hearts and minds.

Ed, I have to disagree with you. Facts require something positive, not an absence of evidence.

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

 

[edgray]

Ed, I have to disagree with you. Facts require something positive, not an absence of evidence.

you're getting caught up with semantics. Let me rephrase this:

It is a fact that there is no proof of the existence of God.

That is true, it is 100% observable and fits the definition.

 

[Minor Axis]

you're getting caught up with semantics. Let me rephrase this:

It is a fact that there is no proof of the existence of God.

That is true, it is 100% observable and fits the definition.

So the fact is there is no proof of God. It's not a fact there is no God/higher power.

 

[edgray]

So the fact is there is no proof of God. It's not a fact there is no God/higher power.

Of course this is true.

As I've said before, there is still room for a creator, just not in any religious sense.

Our knowledge of the universe shows that the only place for a God is outside our natural world, meaning that he didn't create the Earth, nor man, nor cause plagues or other vengeful acts.

Put simply, He cannot impact any change on the natural world.

Which means He must exist outside of it.

In which case, he could have pulled the trigger for the big bang. This isn't outside the realms of possibility. Scientists on Earth are working to create a universe in a laboratory as we speak.

But, what it does show, is that the creator is completely unaware of us, or anything inside the universe he created, much in the same way the scientists who succeed in the above experiment will be. They will be Gods in every definition of the word, yet, nothing supernatural about them or what they did.

 

[Minor Axis]

Of course this is true.

As I've said before, there is still room for a creator, just not in any religious sense.

Our knowledge of the universe shows that the only place for a God is outside our natural world, meaning that he didn't create the Earth, nor man, nor cause plagues or other vengeful acts.

Put simply, He cannot impact any change on the natural world.

Which means He must exist outside of it.

In which case, he could have pulled the trigger for the big bang. This isn't outside the realms of possibility. Scientists on Earth are working to create a universe in a laboratory as we speak.

But, what it does show, is that the creator is completely unaware of us, or anything inside the universe he created, much in the same way the scientists who succeed in the above experiment will be. They will be Gods in every definition of the word, yet, nothing supernatural about them or what they did.

I agree with you partially.

1. Possible creator- Yes.
2. Can't impact the natural world- or chooses not to? Undecided, but most likely does not. I don't believe as a rule the creator (if there is one as we understand the term "creator") micromanages physical events. However, I'm not in a position to say that outcomes are not influenced in any manner.
3. Creator is unaware of us- unknown. I like the idea of spirituality, a social network in a different plane, a parallel universe, something we can't explain, some might even call it heaven. I don't because of the religious connotations. Yes, pure wishful thinking on my part.

 

[edgray]

I agree with you partially.

1. Possible creator- Yes.

This is an outside chance tho, I mean, there still isn't any proof there is one, just a remote possibility. It's purely philosophical at this point.

2. Can't impact the natural world- or chooses not to? Undecided, but most likely does not. I don't believe as a rule the creator (if there is one as we understand the term "creator") micromanages physical events. However, I'm not in a position to say that outcomes are not influenced in any manner.

Well the reason I say cannot impact the natural world is because there would be evidence of this in the natural world. And there simply isn't any.

Like the scientists creating a universe in the laboratory, they're not going to be able to watch the universe they've made. It'll simply be too large, like our own.

3. Creator is unaware of us- unknown. I like the idea of spirituality, a social network in a different plane, a parallel universe, something we can't explain, some might even call it heaven. I don't because of the religious connotations. Yes, pure wishful thinking on my part.

Yes spirituality, interconnectedness etc are nice ideas... and science is of course looking into parallel universes (this is the basis for the experiment mentioned above). But why does it have to be spiritual?

The creator of our universe, if there is indeed one, would probably be similar to the scientists creating one here. Omnipotence is an impossibility. There's no way they would know about the goings on here on Earth. We're 1 tiny planet orbiting 1 star in a galaxy that contains over two hundred billion stars in a universe that over 125 billion galaxies or similar sizes... Imagine trying to find Earth from the outside of this truly humungous universe?

When it comes down to it, religion and spirituality are simply the belief in unexplained phenomenon and that the universe does not abide to strict rules and laws. It's the ultimate cop-out of inquiry and understanding. People that don't understand the origins of life put it down to religion, simply because it's something they cannot explain or comprehend. Or something that offends them, I guess people don't like thinking they came from a primordial soup...

 

[Minor Axis]

TWell the reason I say cannot impact the natural world is because there would be evidence of this in the natural world. And there simply isn't any.

When an individual is admitted to the hospital with what is deemed a fatal injury and then somehow survives, why? We are not really in a position to determine the nature of the recovery.

Yes spirituality, interconnectedness etc are nice ideas... and science is of course looking into parallel universes (this is the basis for the experiment mentioned above). But why does it have to be spiritual?

It does not have to be spiritual, but the concept behind spirituality is not something science has yet been able to identify. It may or may not exist.

When it comes down to it, religion and spirituality are simply the belief in unexplained phenomenon and that the universe does not abide to strict rules and laws. It's the ultimate cop-out of inquiry and understanding. People that don't understand the origins of life put it down to religion, simply because it's something they cannot explain or comprehend. Or something that offends them, I guess people don't like thinking they came from a primordial soup...

Or maybe we don't understand all the rules and laws.

 

[edgray]

When an individual is admitted to the hospital with what is deemed a fatal injury and then somehow survives, why? We are not really in a position to determine the nature of the recovery.

But there's no magic there, which is the point. I mean, most likely, the "fatal" injury wasn't actually a fatal injury at all. A misdiagnosis was probably the case.

There have been scientific studies, well, as scientific as you can get, into various spiritual healing techniques, and like with all magic, it's been disproved.

It does not have to be spiritual, but the concept behind spirituality is not something science has yet been able to identify. It may or may not exist.

By definition, it's outside of science's remit. Science is the study of the natural world. During that study, science has found no evidence of anything spiritual. Which means if it did indeed exist, it simply does not exist in the natural world. It would have to be supernatural.

Or maybe we don't understand all the rules and laws.

The point is we do understand them. There isn't much on record that breaks these rules.

 

[Minor Axis]

But there's no magic there, which is the point. I mean, most likely, the "fatal" injury wasn't actually a fatal injury at all. A misdiagnosis was probably the case.

There have been scientific studies, well, as scientific as you can get, into various spiritual healing techniques, and like with all magic, it's been disproved.

No one has determined why exactly with the same "fatal" injuries some survive and others die. No one is monitoring and evaluating the processes that cause some cells to recover or to die. I'm not saying it was magic, I'm saying that we don't know why someone recovers or does not.

By definition, it's outside of science's remit. Science is the study of the natural world. During that study, science has found no evidence of anything spiritual. Which means if it did indeed exist, it simply does not exist in the natural world. It would have to be supernatural.

It remains unknown until science discovers it.

The point is we do understand them. There isn't much on record that breaks these rules.

I don't believe they have nailed down a universal theory of the universe. It may not be a violation of rules, but understanding the rules.

I frequently watch Ghost Hunters. Did you know the theory is that ghosts are energy and that cold spots are created when this energy tries to manifest itself? I love it when they get ghosts to talk to them via their K2 meters. Supernatural, rules we don't understand, or strictly entertainment?

 

[edgray]

No one has determined why exactly with the same "fatal" injuries some survive and others die. No one is monitoring and evaluating the processes that cause some cells to recover or to die. I'm not saying it was magic, I'm saying that we don't know why someone recovers or does not.

It's more a case of not having the resources and manpower to find out. Not looking into make-believe for an answer. Putting someone's recovery down to something supernatural is a cop out.

It remains unknown until science discovers it.

LOL! So the discovery of atoms, sub-atomic particles and strings and membranes hasn't gone deep enough into understanding the mechanics of the universe?

So where, pray tell, is this spirituality hiding?

I don't believe they have nailed down a universal theory of the universe. It may not be a violation of rules, but understanding the rules.

I frequently watch Ghost Hunters. Did you know the theory is that ghosts are energy and that cold spots are created when this energy tries to manifest itself? I love it when they get ghosts to talk to them via their K2 meters. Supernatural, rules we don't understand, or strictly entertainment?

We have a pretty good model of most of the universe, it's laws, how it behaves, how it was made etc. The "theory of everything" is not so far away, and m-theory seems to be the front runner for this.

I'm highly skeptical of anything like ghosts and so forth, even though I've had a couple of "experiences" myself.

Personally when it comes to ghost hunters, I'd put that in entertainment and nothing else.

 

[Minor Axis]

It's more a case of not having the resources and manpower to find out. Not looking into make-believe for an answer. Putting someone's recovery down to something supernatural is a cop out.

You are assuming that someone's recovery is completely internally determined. I'm saying we don't know that. Ask a doctor, they will tell you they don't know why when someone is pronounced terminal but then recovers.

LOL! So the discovery of atoms, sub-atomic particles and strings and membranes hasn't gone deep enough into understanding the mechanics of the universe?

So where, pray tell, is this spirituality hiding?

We have a pretty good model of most of the universe, it's laws, how it behaves, how it was made etc. The "theory of everything" is not so far away, and m-theory seems to be the front runner for this.

So you are assuming we have all the tools to know and detect everything that acts upon the universe? Now that is worth a LOL. BTW, I have not said I believe in spirits or spirituality, but I'm open to the possibility.

I'm highly skeptical of anything like ghosts and so forth, even though I've had a couple of "experiences" myself.

Personally when it comes to ghost hunters, I'd put that in entertainment and nothing else.

That possibility certainly exists. Have you ever watched the show? They started out trying to debunk everything, but have slowly become more accepting of unexplainable things. I feel comfortable believing what I'm am seeing is authentic. Other shows I've watched, Most Haunted, Ghost Town, Destination Truth, etc appear to be fakes to me.

 

[Peter Parka]

Doctors dont know everything, if they did, there would be a cure for cancer by now. Just because they dont know why someone recovered dosen't mean it has to be because of a supernatural reason. Chances are its because of something rational they just havent descovered yet. I'm sure there are thousands of situations that happened years ago like this which people put down to supernatural stuff and modern scientific descoveries have debunked now.

 

[BornReady]

I have no problem with your approach, but I'll ask have you ever felt something just out of reach, that you really can't put a finger on? Or a feeling of well being? I'm not prepared to say the source for these feelings are internal (self generated) or external, but that is my basis for preferring to say "I don't know".

Sometimes a moving thought will give me goosebumps. When I was a Christian I interpreted this as the Holy Spirit confirming the truth of that thought. I still get goosebumps occasionally as an atheist but I interpret it differently now. Once I got goosebumps when I said there is no God. I joked that it was the Holy Spirit confirming that he doesn't exist.

Chances are its because of something rational they just havent descovered yet. I'm sure there are thousands of situations that happened years ago like this which people put down to supernatural stuff and modern scientific descoveries have debunked now.

That's how I look at it too. When there is a "miraculous" healing, it's in an area where our knowledge is lacking. You never hear of a patient who had his kidneys removed only to miraculously grow another pair. The realm of the supernatural always exists in the gaps of our knowledge. To me, that is suspicious and makes me skeptical.

 

[GoldDust Woman]

Doctors dont know everything, if they did, there would be a cure for cancer by now.

Peter, Cancer is a multi-billion dollar industry. The powers that be have plenty of cures, but, why disclose that when the medical field will take a hit to that almighty buck?

 

[edgray]

You are assuming that someone's recovery is completely internally determined. I'm saying we don't know that. Ask a doctor, they will tell you they don't know why when someone is pronounced terminal but then recovers.

Yeah you're right. We don't know one small thing so that MUST mean there's an invisible hand here... angels!!! that's it! Must be...

So you are assuming we have all the tools to know and detect everything that acts upon the universe? Now that is worth a LOL. BTW, I have not said I believe in spirits or spirituality, but I'm open to the possibility.

Well yeah it's called physics and mathematics. Maths is the universal truth, and the only universal truth. Physics is the application of that universal truth on the natural world.

Even if we don't fully understand a particular force, like gravity for example, which is kind of odd because if it's weakness compared to other forces, that doesn't mean it can be attributed to anything other than a natural force.

You see this is where this whole spiritual nonsense really gets on my nerves. We know so much about the natural world now, from the formation of planets, to the evolution of life on them, basically ALL of what was once believed to be spiritual and only explainable by God is now fully explained and understood. EVERYTHING. Let me say that again: EVERYTHING. Yet, somehow, something that isn't explained instantly means there's something else out there?

Fuck, scientists don't know why mentos and diet coke create such an explosion. Is that the hand of God maybe? Is it fuck, it's just that no one has been bothered to sit down and figure out the chemistry behind the reaction because its just mentos and diet coke, who gives a fuck and what difference does it make?

This is the same with God, with spirituality, the super natural etc. The few occasions where scientific testing has been used on any kind of super natural claims, they have fallen flat on their face. Because everything in the natural world abides by the laws around it.

Psychics? Debunked. Ghosts? Debunked. God? Debunked.

 

[edgray]

Doctors dont know everything, if they did, there would be a cure for cancer by now. Just because they dont know why someone recovered dosen't mean it has to be because of a supernatural reason. Chances are its because of something rational they just havent descovered yet. I'm sure there are thousands of situations that happened years ago like this which people put down to supernatural stuff and modern scientific descoveries have debunked now.

Most cancers are curable these days Peter. There are very few that aren't.

 

[BornReady]

I don't know. The problem I have with some Athiests (I'm Agnostic), is instead of just saying "I don't believe", they come across as arguing dis-belief in God as if it is a fact, when it is just a lack of proof. If you look at the definition of "fact" (Dictionary.com), it involves a positive proof of something. But maybe they are just arguing there is no basis and I'm too sensitive.

No, you're not too sensitive. It's a valid point. We don't know everything and that's a fact. I like the atheist t-shirt, "There's probably no god. So stop worrying and enjoy your life." You don't worry and enjoy life so your search for spirituality is a positive thing.

 

[Tuffdisc]

Do you believe in Angels?
I have stated in another thread I am an Athiest but I do believe in Angels not as mesingers of God but as Guardians and helpers not in a direct sense but in little things that make small changes that affect bigger things in your life

I believe in God, so it has to be a yes

 

[Tuffdisc]

Doctors dont know everything, if they did, there would be a cure for cancer by now. Just because they dont know why someone recovered dosen't mean it has to be because of a supernatural reason. Chances are its because of something rational they just havent descovered yet. I'm sure there are thousands of situations that happened years ago like this which people put down to supernatural stuff and modern scientific descoveries have debunked now.

There was news sometime ago that they had found a cure for cancer, the only reason why big companies won't take it up, it is because they don't want to take the drug, the excuse is something called a patent

 

[Minor Axis]

Yeah you're right. We don't know one small thing so that MUST mean there's an invisible hand here... angels!!! that's it! Must be...

Ed, you know it all. I won't expend any more energy trying to entice you to consider another possibility even if it may be remote.