Dead Beat Fathers

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Joe the meek

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Couple of rules

Nothing in life is free
Life is not always fair

Are there some guys getting screwed over by the system for child support? I'm certain of it. That said, I'm just as certain that more guys are screwing their children over by not supporting them then guys getting screwed over by the system.

You want to know the simple solution? Don't think with your dick.

Here is another fact, even if you don't think with your dick and you don't have the system trying to perhaps screw you over on child support, you're going to get the system to screw you on something else, it's going to happen.
 
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The Man

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I'm right in the sense of the courts stance, as well. If I were a loser, YOUR tax money would assist me in supporting this boy. That is, if you work.

I didn't "take" the child. I fought my ass off in a court of law against his sperm donor... who, btw, to this day, has made nothing of himself. Nothing! (Which is why I fought for custody to begin with.)

No, I don't need him, but - his son does. If you'll go back and read this thread, instead of just talking out of your ass to try and build your nonsensical case, you'd see where I posted about it. Kids need their parents! Not just their money.
I'm right in the sense of the courts stance, as well.
Civil contempt is not the same as criminal contempt...I have broke it down rather well in more than one post...until you adress that rather than ignore it you cant be right.

If I were a loser, YOUR tax money would assist me in supporting this boy.
You seem to have an odd definition of loser...which essentially means anyone that is poor....just because someone is poor doesnt make them a loser...I like most people have no issues helping someone who is trying to help themselves.

Also {which has been explained before as well}...many areas had and some still have double digit unemployment....this will hamper those that owe child support...by taking their drivers license,professional licenses tossing them in the jug...making felons out of them..ALL which makes it more difficult to comply{which has also been explained prior as well}
I didn't "take" the child. I fought my ass off in a court of law against his sperm donor.

Then what are you whining about?...you won..you have the child.

who, btw, to this day, has made nothing of himself. Nothing!
perhaps you should should give him more credit...he made the effort to fight you in court for custody of his child after the mother passed away.
Sounds like me he doesnt fit the definition of a deadbeat dad.

No, I don't need him, but - his son does.
And his Dad tried to full fill that need ...correct?...yes correct.
If you'll go back and read this thread, instead of just talking out of your ass to try and build your nonsensical case, you'd see where I posted about it.

This was the first time me seeing you post that he fought in court for his child.

Kids need their parents! Not just their money.

If kids need their parents then why didnt you let the child live with the surviving parent?

TBO I was under the impression earlier he was a "deadbeat dad"...but after hearing He wanted the raise the boy...thats far from skating out.

Not trying to start a personal argument here...but IMO a child should be with the parent unless there has been evidence of child abuse or neglect{none of which you have mentioned}
Drinking mountain dew and smoking pot are not "the big evils"..if that were the case then about half the kids would need to be taken away.
 

The Man

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Couple of rules

Nothing in life is free
Life is not always fair

Are there some guys getting screwed over by the system for child support? I'm certain of it. That said, I'm just as certain that more guys are screwing their children over by not supporting them then guys getting screwed over by the system.

You want to know the simple solution? Don't think with your dick.

Here is another fact, even if you don't think with your dick and you don't have the system trying to perhaps screw you over on child support, you're going to get the system to screw you on something else, it's going to happen.

I agree with you Joe.but alot of families start out with good intent...and may be a family for several years...The parents "decide" they cant get along and go their ways.

Hard times can come...take the recent hit of the economy for instance of which we are finally crawling out of.
Couples that were together were losing homes cars etc by the droves...if it can happen to couples...it can easily happen to some single non custodial parent trying to live on 300 bucks or less a month.
To make it worse they intentionally make it more difficult to pay once you are behind.
 

The Man

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Here is another sample case with each parent earning $9.37 an hour
1500 a month wages.
Support obligation is $915 a month.
All federal and state deductions from check will be about a third of of a check.
1500 minus 915 for support and about 500 hundred more in Govt withholding's.
Dont forget the 5 to 10 bucks fee he has to pay for getting his check garnished every week...just say 30 bucks thats seven fifty a pop.
That leaves him a whopping 35 dollars a month to live on.{ ONE DOLLAR AND SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY}...and this is if he is current and had the kid 150 days of the year !!!!!!!!!!
This is appalling and not the way we should do things in America...This sample case will end up not being able to drive...end up in prison.
Owe the debt when he gets out.....go back in because he cant pay.

:clapFucked good.jpg

Its no wonder these guys work for cash...they have to or they cant make a living.
 
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Joe the meek

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Here is another sample case with each parent earning $9.37 an hour

I would argue that if you're making $9.37 an hour, you better have been saving for some time before you have children because that kid is going to give you a massive pay cut. Children COST money.
 
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GoldDust Woman

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He fought for custody to show me that he was in control of me. LOL He showed up at all court dates except for the final day of reckoning. Yeah, he wanted his son. I even offered to give him his son, once kindergarten was over, on one condition. That he get a place of his own, learn to budget his own life before infusing a growing child into his. Guess what? He's STILL HASN'T gotten his own place, and the boy is going to be a sophomore in High School. Also... he never paid for his lawyer. So, yes, he's a LOSER of epic proportion.

You know what? Just screw off, ok? You have no idea what you're even talking about. :thumbdown
 

GoldDust Woman

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I agree with you Joe.but alot of families start out with good intent...and may be a family for several years...The parents "decide" they cant get along and go their ways.

Hard times can come...take the recent hit of the economy for instance of which we are finally crawling out of.
Couples that were together were losing homes cars etc by the droves...if it can happen to couples...it can easily happen to some single non custodial parent trying to live on 300 bucks or less a month.
To make it worse they intentionally make it more difficult to pay once you are behind.


:blah: :blah:
 

The Man

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He fought for custody to show me that he was in control of me. LOL He showed up at all court dates except for the final day of reckoning. Yeah, he wanted his son. I even offered to give him his son, once kindergarten was over, on one condition. That he get a place of his own, learn to budget his own life before infusing a growing child into his. Guess what? He's STILL HASN'T gotten his own place, and the boy is going to be a sophomore in High School. Also... he never paid for his lawyer. So, yes, he's a LOSER of epic proportion.

You know what? Just screw off, ok? You have no idea what you're even talking about. :thumbdown

You have no idea what you're even talking about.
I can only respond to what you tell me.
Your prior posts had no mention of him failing to show "reckoning day"..but rather made it appear to be quite the battle.
He fought for custody to show me that he was in control of me.
Again not to sound harsh here...but it sounds like you fought to have control of him....what you stated below is the latest example.

I even offered to give him his son, once kindergarten was over, on one condition. That he get a place of his own, learn to budget his own life before infusing a growing child into his.
See something seems to be amiss here and doesnt add up.....why would he have to fight you for custody when its his child...unless you fought to gain custody to begin with.
Guess what? He's STILL HASN'T gotten his own place.
So what...most households are not single member...many people have a husband, wife, BF, GF ...or live with someone of relation.
Unless it a harmful environment to the child its non issue.

and the boy is going to be a sophomore in High School.
So several years later the father hasnt decided to live by his self for you to decide he can have custody of his own kid....and who wants control?
Also... he never paid for his lawyer.
Pretty odd as I have not observed lawyers work without receiving funds as cases progress...The tend to not tie themselves up in court suing clients.
So, yes, he's a LOSER of epic proportion.
Ok we have gone from a pot smoker and mountain dew drinker....to a man that doesnt live in a single member household and didnt pay his lawyer as being a loser.
Lets tar and feather the guy....shame on him.
 

GoldDust Woman

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I gave you the cliff note version. Honestly, a person of your caliber is not capable of connecting the dots. What you may think matters not. What IS, is what matters. I pray you never breed... you are a prime example as to why this country is in the shape it's in. Don't own responsibilities... blame all of your mistakes on everyone else. Blame them on the system. Blame them on the government. Blame them on the women who raise children alone without help. Spare me.

Stoner and the rest of the gang from TSG have always said that you're an idiot. Well, after this interaction with you, I must agree with the majority and agree with what they've coined you... an idiot.

You like to argue, for arguments sake. How's about you go out and make a living and pay your taxes. Good bye.
 

The Man

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I gave you the cliff note version. Honestly, a person of your caliber is not capable of connecting the dots. What you may think matters not. What IS, is what matters. I pray you never breed... you are a prime example as to why this country is in the shape it's in. Don't own responsibilities... blame all of your mistakes on everyone else. Blame them on the system. Blame them on the government. Blame them on the women who raise children alone without help. Spare me.

Stoner and the rest of the gang from TSG have always said that you're an idiot. Well, after this interaction with you, I must agree with the majority and agree with what they've coined you... an idiot.

You like to argue, for arguments sake. How's about you go out and make a living and pay your taxes. Good bye.
Honestly, a person of your caliber is not capable of connecting the dots.
I laid out all the dots..connecting them for YOU...you choose to ignore them.

What you may think matters not.
It must...your responses show it.
you are a prime example as to why this country is in the shape it's in. Don't own responsibilities
I receive no assistance..I owe no one and earned everything I have...I also help those in need via much volunteer work.
I care about ALL people...therefore do not consider a "sperm donor" as you like to call them an automatic piece of shit.
Families split up for various reasons...each case has its own cause.
blame all of your mistakes on everyone else. Blame them on the system. Blame them on the government. Blame them on the women who raise children alone without help. Spare me.

What mistakes?

Stoner and the rest of the gang from TSG have always said that you're an idiot.
Odd...being that I received a PM from you wanting to know my id at that forum and that you didnt like stoner.

You like to argue, for arguments sake. How's about you go out and make a living and pay your taxes.
Not at all...you chose to argue with me...not only did I offer facts that you refuse to address Your entire position has been "My grand childs sperm donor is a loser who is behind on his payments." rather than discuss the actual topic itself.
Emotional responses are not rebuttal to facts.


And about the taxes...I pay...and I rarely get back EIC.
I am helping to support the children of others....Tax me/ to hand back thousands to another :)
Good bye.
For real this time ?:D
 

Accountable

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Broken down that means...The man is right..the debt is not due to fraud..therefore is not a criminal offense.
The man is right as we abolished debtors prison centuries ago.
I think the meaning is closer to ... The Man is obstinate. Your analogies don't line up and the people you're arguing with have better things to do with their lives than look up parental and family statute just to carry on a conversation.

I have a little more spare time a the moment.

Parental rights and obligations are not federal issues and are not covered by the US Constitution. Each state makes its own laws, but I'd assume they're basically the same. I looked up the TX statutes because I was curious just how finely these things were really defined. Answer: pretty frickin fine.

First we have to agree what a parent even is. Is it the sperm donor? The name on the birth certificate? The guy that sleeps/slept in the master bedroom?
That is covered legally in TX with the Uniform Parentage Act [LINK] which goes into great detail who parents are presumed to be and how parentage is determined in case the presumption is in dispute.

Once a person is designated as a parent, that person is endowed/burdened with certain rights and duties. These rights and duties are enumerated for Texans in the statute entitled, oddly enough, Rights and Duties in Parent-Child Relationship [LINK].

Since both parents have the same rights and duties toward any given child, it is inevitable that conflicts will occur. When the parents can't resolve such conflicts on their own, they can ask the courts to intervene and decide who has what rights and what duties. SO, once the court decides that (for instance) the mother has the right to physical possession of the child, and the father has the duty to pay $X.xx toward the child's feeding, watering, and general upkeep, the father's duty cannot be considered a debt (he's not purchasing the child) but an obligation.

The obligation is to the state, not the child nor the mother. Neither of them can unilaterally relieve the father of the obligation; only the courts can do that. Failure to pay court ordered child support is no different from failure to pay any other duty to the government. I guess it becomes more like a tax.

So when a deadbeat dad goes to jail for failure to pay child support, he's not going to jail for not paying a debt to another person but for not paying a duty to the government - meaning the people, or society.
 

The Man

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I think the meaning is closer to ... The Man is obstinate. Your analogies don't line up and the people you're arguing with have better things to do with their lives than look up parental and family statute just to carry on a conversation.

I have a little more spare time a the moment.

Parental rights and obligations are not federal issues and are not covered by the US Constitution. Each state makes its own laws, but I'd assume they're basically the same. I looked up the TX statutes because I was curious just how finely these things were really defined. Answer: pretty frickin fine.

First we have to agree what a parent even is. Is it the sperm donor? The name on the birth certificate? The guy that sleeps/slept in the master bedroom?
That is covered legally in TX with the Uniform Parentage Act [LINK] which goes into great detail who parents are presumed to be and how parentage is determined in case the presumption is in dispute.

Once a person is designated as a parent, that person is endowed/burdened with certain rights and duties. These rights and duties are enumerated for Texans in the statute entitled, oddly enough, Rights and Duties in Parent-Child Relationship [LINK].

Since both parents have the same rights and duties toward any given child, it is inevitable that conflicts will occur. When the parents can't resolve such conflicts on their own, they can ask the courts to intervene and decide who has what rights and what duties. SO, once the court decides that (for instance) the mother has the right to physical possession of the child, and the father has the duty to pay $X.xx toward the child's feeding, watering, and general upkeep, the father's duty cannot be considered a debt (he's not purchasing the child) but an obligation.

The obligation is to the state, not the child nor the mother. Neither of them can unilaterally relieve the father of the obligation; only the courts can do that. Failure to pay court ordered child support is no different from failure to pay any other duty to the government. I guess it becomes more like a tax.

So when a deadbeat dad goes to jail for failure to pay child support, he's not going to jail for not paying a debt to another person but for not paying a duty to the government - meaning the people, or society.

A little semantics on obligation and debt...however the result is still the same.
Example...you are behind say 4 payments ....you are now in debt.
You go to jail because you owe that debt.
You are obligated to pay rent for instance or get kicked out...a court can find you owe that money as you lived there during a stated time period...it is now a debt.

On to child support...A person is jailed for non compliance resulting in civil contempt of court.


In order for civil contempt to be proper the state would need to show cause that one being placed in contempt IS ABLE TO COMPLY...which means the state would need to show that the father actually had the funds for back child support.{but refused to comply}
If the state could show the father actually had the funds they could simply garnish them.

Additionally courts are designed to adjust payments within your means....Lets say you owe the hospital 10 k..and get put on payments of 200 a month via garnishment.....You DONT go to jail when you lose your job and no longer have a check coming in....the garnishments occur again when you start getting pay checks again.

Back to contempt{failure to pay}....which would be applicable if the court could show you had means but refused....Savings account for instance with the funds.

And yes it is very much a constitutional matter due to protection violations alone...both parents are not given equal protections from suffrage.
Methods to determine amounts are also flawed...based upon what you make...not by the cost of raising a child.
Granted the more money you make the more you will spend on your child to a point
Lets say he makes 25 k a year and she makes 25 k a year...they are doing well and the children have all the needs met as well as have money for recreation toys boy scouts etc.....this is possible because there is extra money...now what if that couple was paying rent and utilities on another building, paying for a car at that building and whatever else it took to live....they would not have the extra money as before.

This is what happens during a split up 2 households now have to be provided for,more vehicles, more insurance, more electric ,more natural gas,more rent
We can no longer have the same means of provision for the child as prior.{as before the split}
Se we provide for our children within our means...Johnny might get a Cadillac when he is 16...Jake and old beater chevy.
Johnny would not get that caddy if it not was within the parents means...if Johnnies family were paying additional rent utilities ect..that caddy may not be possible....I would like to point out the Caddy isnt a need ...but an extra {as Mom and Dad can.}
This same holds true for fast foods to the clothes you wear.
If you dont have extra funds beyond basic living..you will not see 4 wheelers outside for example
As said the govt is failing to provide equal protections,,,and are actually creating unequal protections and suffrage.
Another small example of this is tax credit...if you have been forking half the money to raise a child through child support{as you have someone dependent upon you}*cough*..then one should have half that credit...the state already declared the child a dependent for you...and you provided by garnishments.
The mother often gets back thousands a year in tax credits..since the man can not claim his dependent he loses much in taxes.
This is an offset of several thousand dollars in itself....this thousands she receives is not considered income for funds available to raise a child...nor is his loss t deducted in calculating income.
Therefore the Custodial Parent is often several thousand dollars ahead when 2 make the same wage.{just from tax credit alone.}

It gets worse when you get poor...A rich man can pay through the teeth and still make a living...A poor man doesnt stand a chance as shown by the sample chart

Fucked good.jpg

He will have roughly 35 bucks a months to live on.{AND HE IS NOT BEHIND ON PAYMENTS}
She will have about 2200 bucks a month...if we average in tax credit now rather than lump at the end of the year..it will be about 2600 bucks.

Which means she has 74 times more available funds when they both make the same wage.

I want to see a study that shows that 74 dollars of 75 earned in wages goes toward the expense of a child.

Additionally..when the custodial parent loses a job...they receive aid for that child...why does the NCP not receive aid when they are also caring for that child?{in the event they lose their job} as they are supporting that child.

So yes ACC states may have their own laws but they are not exempt from constitutional protections.
 
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The Man

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And again for the record I am not stating a parent shouldnt care for a child...I am stating you can only care for a child within your means.
 

Accountable

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A little semantics on obligation and debt...however the result is still the same.
They are very different legal terms each bringing about very different results. They're no more synonymous than murder and manslaughter, though one can try to argue that the result is the same (a dead body).

So yes ACC states may have their own laws but they are not exempt from constitutional protections.
Actually, they are. This "Progressive" myth that the US Constitution restricts state governments in the same way and scope that it does the federal gov't - which is incorrectly supported by SCOTUS decision - is blown away the instant you apply the barest minimum of critical thought. If states were restricted by the US Constitution they wouldn't need state constitutions. Look at your own state's constitution. I'm betting there is a separate and redundant "bill of rights" enshrined there.



eta: http://www.moga.mo.gov/const/t01.htm
 

The Man

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Not only is this unfair ..it is also unfair to other children involved {unequal protections}...while it is the govt who is enforcing "equal protection" to begin with.
Using the model case the ncp is ordered to pay 915 a month for the two children...if the NCP also has two children not associated with the current case he is ordered to pay 750 a month.....a lousy 165 bucks difference.
This is stealing from one set of kids to give to another....why should those kids have unequal protection
Bob has two kids with mary..mary has custody...bob pays 915 a month.
Bob has custody of two kids with Jill...Bob pays mary 750 a month.
The state is saying your cost to raise the children is 165 a month....but hers is $915x2 {1830 bucks}...{same number of children and both make the same wage}
Bob is now raising two kids on 203 a month.
Mary is now raising two kids on 2415 a month.

They both have the same number of kids and make the same wage....as we can see we are "protecting" one set of children while intentionally placing suffrage on another..
Additionally...the more bob makes the higher is payments will be...thus giving more money to the other set of kids.
Therefore Bob would have to make over a quarter million a year to have equal support for each family.
 

Accountable

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If they calculate the way you indicate then you may very well be right. It would be unfair. Call your legislator. But I recommend you do the research as to what the actual calculation is before you start your crusade.
 

The Man

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They are very different legal terms each bringing about very different results. They're no more synonymous than murder and manslaughter, though one can try to argue that the result is the same (a dead body).


Actually, they are. This "Progressive" myth that the US Constitution restricts state governments in the same way and scope that it does the federal gov't - which is incorrectly supported by SCOTUS decision - is blown away the instant you apply the barest minimum of critical thought. If states were restricted by the US Constitution they wouldn't need state constitutions. Look at your own state's constitution. I'm betting there is a separate and redundant "bill of rights" enshrined there.



eta: http://www.moga.mo.gov/const/t01.htm

They are very different legal terms each bringing about very different results. They're no more synonymous than murder and manslaughter, though one can try to argue that the result is the same (a dead body).
Unpaid money is a debt ACC....a debt occurs from a failure to meet that obligation{just like rent}

Actually, they are. This "Progressive" myth that the US Constitution restricts state governments in the same way and scope that it does the federal gov't - which is incorrectly supported by SCOTUS decision - is blown away the instant you apply the barest minimum of critical thought. If states were restricted by the US Constitution they wouldn't need state constitutions. Look at your own state's constitution. I'm betting there is a separate and redundant "bill of rights" enshrined there.
States are bound by Fed constitution.
A simple example being due process..without it Oregon could say Execute a man without a trial for an unpaid parking ticket.
Then we have gender rights etc...the list is endless.

I am not saying it works...all we have to do is look at the patriot act to see protections are disregarded....They do want they want to do anyway.
 
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The Man

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If they calculate the way you indicate then you may very well be right. It would be unfair. Call your legislator. But I recommend you do the research as to what the actual calculation is before you start your crusade.

Not everyone gets fucked ACC,but many do.
I have know people that have worked thier asses of for years to bring home less that a hundred bucks a week due to child support.
If one person gets fucked its to many?
Safeguards need to be in place to prevent fuckings.
 

The Man

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Let me take a recent case{bout three years ago} where the guy got off lucky
He made about 11.07 and hour she made about 9.13 an hour....I wouldnt swear to the odd change.
The guides in the locale said he would be paying about 425 a month.
He ended up in the low 3s.
Not only could they have went with the 425...they could have gone over it...they are just guides.
He had a good lawyer and made it work for him...thats 6 grand in lawyer fees though {so to get that 6 grand back he will have to have beat the system for 100 bucks a month times 60 months} he came out a winner as he is "saving" 6 grand in five years through reduced payments.
He did have an injury from a fall and was unable to work about 7 months...so is now behind...not sure how much extra they are taking out...but he is bitching lol
 
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