Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Alien Allen]

My only question is all of this is "Why did Zimmerman get out of his vehicle?"

I believe because he lost sight of the kid.

 

[Jaybird]

My only question is all of this is "Why did Zimmerman get out of his vehicle?"

I personally believe to answer the operators question of which direction Martin ran off to.

We really do not know more than that though. Anything beyond that is pure speculation imo.

 

[Tangerine]

I believe because he lost sight of the kid.

He had already met his mandate and notified authorities of his suspicions. Beyond that, he had no right or reason to leave his vehicle and pursue the boy. I believe this point will be the crucial one.

Ironically, I DO believe the so called "Stand Your Ground" law will come into play in this case, but not for Zimmerman. I believe it will be shown that it was Martin who was excercising his right to "stand his ground" against what he perceived as a threat, and that Zimmerman was the only true aggressor here.

 

[Aeval]

He had already met his mandate and notified authorities of his suspicions. Beyond that, he had no right or reason to leave his vehicle and pursue the boy. I believe this point will be the crucial one.

Ironically, I DO believe the so called "Stand Your Ground" law will come into play in this case, but not for Zimmerman. I believe it will be shown that it was Martin who was excercising his right to "stand his ground" against what he perceived as a threat, and that Zimmerman was the only true aggressor here.

I agree - I think Zimmerman's frame of mind should be questioned (on getting out of his vehicle). Was he feeling safe in the fact that he WAS carrying a gun? Did he think if Martin turned on him "well, that doesn't matter, I can just shoot him." Was he out to be a hero?

Martin was walking home, period. His girlfriend confirmed he noticed Zimmerman watching him and was nervous, he had every right to be where he was and if he perceived Zimmerman as a threat, he had the right to defend himself.

No one (but Zimmerman now) knows who laid a hand on whom first and in all honesty, we might never know the truth.

It's going to be interesting.

 

[Jaybird]

I agree - I think Zimmerman's frame of mind should be questioned (on getting out of his vehicle). Was he feeling safe in the fact that he WAS carrying a gun? Did he think if Martin turned on him "well, that doesn't matter, I can just shoot him." Was he out to be a hero?

Martin was walking home, period. His girlfriend confirmed he noticed Zimmerman watching him and was nervous, he had every right to be where he was and if he perceived Zimmerman as a threat, he had the right to defend himself.

No one (but Zimmerman now) knows who laid a hand on whom first and in all honesty, we might never know the truth.

It's going to be interesting.

My biggest problem with the Girlfriends call is a possible credibility problem. Now before you filet me, hear me out.

The girl only came forward publicly after the case had been investigated for over two weeks, and the police had been asking for any other witnesses to come forward. This wasn't small town news at that time. It was regional going on statewide at the time that the investigation was turned over to the DA. Maybe they turned it over too quickly, but that was only because Martin's Parents were demanding that charges be brought. But she most certainly knew Martin was dead by this time. It was everywhere in both Orlando and Miami, and in between. If she was the last one to hear his voice, I would have been on the news that day if the police didnt want to talk to me(and I am not saying they didnt. There is a lot of misinformation out there right now making the PD look worse then they really are.)

And it was her information, relayed through the Martin Family Attorneys after they had already been told no charges would most likely be filed, that thrust this thing onto the national scene, well mixed with the lies that it was Martin actually crying out for help on the tapes, and not Zimmerman.

Now, I am not saying she wasnt on the phone. And I am not saying she lied at all. But first off, a story can change in ones mind over a 2 week period of grief. And if Martin's family lawyers were the first to interview her, they could have certainly biased her story more than it already would have been. Lawyers have a tendency to do that. Heck, police can do that too if they are not careful. Police are supposed to be trained to just get the information, but we also know that sometimes they can go too far in the interrogation room. Lawyers? They are trained to get what they want out of a witness and nothing more.

Again. I am not saying that the girl did anything wrong. But, the fact that the information didnt come out until after the Martin family basically knew no charges would probably be filed, and all of a sudden....the 'smoking gun' is found that would put Zimmerman into the aggressor role of chasing down Martin and confronting him....seems suspect to me.

The non emergency 911 call clearly has Zimmerman not knowing where Martin is anymore. It would be interesting to know the time difference of the girls call and Zimmermans call ending. Because if there is an overlap...there is a problem. Because we have Zimmermans own words saying he has no idea where Martin is anymore.

So...there are some questions for me. But I understand others see it differently. But again, I had heard of this case before the girls story was even known. So maybe I am biased for that reason myself. IDK.

It will ultimately now come down to whose story the GJ believes is more credible before anything happens. Of course, now that so much miss information has come out making Zimmerman look like a rapid foaming at the mouth racist...it certainly has slanted the public's perception. This is a case that never should have been tried in the 'court of public opinion' and certainly not to the extent it was with as much miss information and bias as it had.

I tend to believe there were a lot of mistakes made that day. And actually feel for all parties involved(yes, all parties) But I am less inclined to believe that the police purposefully botched an investigation. I am also inclined to believe, that if there is even a wiff of impropriety in the investigation, the feds would have already said something. Of course, they may come out eventually saying that as well. But police do investigations all the time. That is just as much of their job, as determining if someone should be tried for a crime is the Prosecutions job. Of course, now that this story has turned into a media circus, who knows what will happen.

 

[Aeval]

Hey..I don't disagree with you, Jay. When I was typing my last post about the the girlfriend I was hesitant...her memory could have changed, she may have been listening to others, she might be just saying something to protect her boyfriend...who knows, I'm hoping she's telling the truth, but I imagine she could be discredited rather quickly, unfortunately...now the timing of the calls is a different story.

LOL...kids that actually talked on the phone and didn't text...go figure.

 

[Alien Allen]

I wonder if the gf knew where he was going to

If she had the phone number of where the father was at? Which was the fathers girlfriends place.

If she did then clearly she did not call the father

Did she ever say if she heard what sounded like the gunshot?

Given she states the kid quit talking I would think she heard screaming. You would think she would have been concerned and called somebody to look into the welfare of the kid.

 

[Tangerine]

The bottom line to this case is that all people have the right to not be pursued by another citizen. It is not really in dispute that Zimmerman did that.

 

[Alien Allen]

The bottom line to this case is that all people have the right to not be pursued by another citizen. It is not really in dispute that Zimmerman did that.

Only problem is this is a gated community which had a number of burglaries. In that case I can see why somebody would be followed.

Not confronted but followed.

And at this point I don't see any evidence yet that confirms who did the confronting. Nor when the gun came out.

To me the following scenarios are plausible........

1. Zimmerman relocates the kid and confronts him. Zimmerman acts like a jerk and the kid feels threatened and starts beating up Zimmerman. Zimmerman is now scared and fears for his life and shoots the kid

2. Same as above except Zimmerman get clear from the kid and shoots him even though he was then safe

3. The kid waits for Zimmerman to approach without the kid being seen. Kid starts beating up Zimmerman and when given the chance Zimmerman fearing for his life shoots the kid

4. Same as Number 3 except Zimmerman is not caught off guard. Both get lippy and a fight ensues. Zimmerman is getting the crap beat out of him and fears for his life and shoots the kid when he gets free enough to do so.



I could probably think of a couple more scenarios. One thing people like John are ignoring is the fact it appears Zimmerman was screaming for help before the gunshot. And when police arrived he was bloodied. If he was bloodied from a fight with the kid then there will be evidence on the kid to indicate that. Which is something we do not have knowledge of but you can bet the police did. And if there was bruised and bloody knuckles on the kid that raises doubt as to Zimmerman being guilty of murder or manslaughter. Even if Zimmerman started a verbal confrontation if he got the shit beat out of him he had a right to self defense didn't he?

 

[The Man]

I could probably think of a couple more scenarios. One thing people like John are ignoring is the fact it appears Zimmerman was screaming for help before the gunshot. And when police arrived he was bloodied. If he was bloodied from a fight with the kid then there will be evidence on the kid to indicate that. Which is something we do not have knowledge of but you can bet the police did. And if there was bruised and bloody knuckles on the kid that raises doubt as to Zimmerman being guilty of murder or manslaughter. Even if Zimmerman started a verbal confrontation if he got the shit beat out of him he had a right to self defense didn't he?

Not if the threat was over...say such as martin whips his ass then gets off him and is finished
But If he had to fight to free himself from martin and martin continued to agress ..justified blast..at least in my area..most states are similar once you break down the actual laws

 

[Joe the meek]

65 yards is pretty close to where Martin was staying (apparently how far away the attack took place?).

What I wonder is if Zimmerman impeded Martins path to the residence or Martin went back towards Zimmerman. For myself, it does make a difference because if Martin had a recourse to go to safety instead of confronting Zimmerman, and then Zimmerman had to use lethal force to defend himself, this doesn't become a wanna be cop being a vigilante, but a dumb kid making a dumb mistake getting jumped by even a dumber kid.

What I can't help but think is all that Martin had to say was "Hey man, I'm staying right over there at my future mother in laws place" and none of this would of taken place. At 65 yards he probably could of pointed to the place.

Was Zimmerman wrong to even get out of his car? Perhaps. But was it illegal? probably not.

The way this whole story started with the press slowly keeps changing. Fact is, I just read some "new" accounts released today that Jay has already mentioned here that makes the circumstances favorable to Zimmerman.

Considering Zimmerman has numerous people (white AND black) coming to his defense claiming he wasn't racist, and the fact that Zimmerman may not of pulled out his gun until Martin was on top of him beating the crap out of him with the possibility of Martin perhaps going for the same gun if it became exposed, it could be an uphill battle for any prosecution, state OR federal.

 

[The Man]

What I can't help but think is all that Martin had to say was "Hey man, I'm staying right over there at my future mother in laws place" and none of this would of taken place. At 65 yards he probably could of pointed to the place.

My thoughts as well

 

[Jaybird]

The bottom line to this case is that all people have the right to not be pursued by another citizen. It is not really in dispute that Zimmerman did that.

I think it is. And certainly would be in a court of law.

It can easily be shown, by just the evidence we know of, that Zimmerman was not 'following' anyone, if the Girlfriends testimony is not factored in. Just the operators call.

Making assumptions alert below!!!

Zimmerman saw a person that he did not recognize in his crime prone community out walking in the rain and so called in a suspicious person report. Something that was his 'quasi' duty because he was the volunteer neighborhood watch.

While he was on the phone with the non emergency operator, remember, he didnt even call 911, so he wasnt sure if an actual 'emergency' was taking place, he was just calling in someone he did not recognize.

The person ran. After being asked by the operator what direction the person was running, he got out of his car to see where the person ran. He was not 'following' anyone, he thought he was proceeding at a safe distance. At some point, Zimmerman lost sight of the person that ran. He got off the phone with the non emergency operator, and was proceeding back to his car, when he was attacked.

^^That is basically Zimmerman's story from what we can gather by the operators call and the city managers report. And him and his attorneys would be arguing in court that is not 'following' anyone. It is being vigilant of people that you do not recognize in a crime prone community, and then trying to see which way the person ran, simply to answer the operators question. That is really all we know of what his story would be based on the call that is recorded. But you can bet it would be argued as such in court.

and since he said he was attacked, not that he stopped to question Martin. The rest of his story would be something like this.

Once he was attacked, he was quickly taken to the ground, and was screaming for help while Martin was on top of him, had his nose busted and was bleeding.

*stop*

We dont know all of that for fact. But I would be willing to bet that is his story. And it is partially corroborated by eye witness testimony.

Then, the question is... why did he fear for his life. Well, based on his friends words that Zimmerman thought it was either him or Martin. We can guess that the rest of his story will be something like.

While he was on the ground yelling for help, there was a point when his weapon became exposed, and a struggle commenced, and zimmerman shot martin once in the chest, fearing that it was either him or Martin.

Yes. I am making some assumptions here. But I would be willing to bet that it is very close to what Zimmerman's story is, and how it would be argued in court. And I would also be willing to bet that the investigation had some physical and eye witness testimony that backed up at least parts of those claims, as well as the non operator call. And since the GF's account was not known when the investigation was turned over to the DA, the DA would have to decide if there is enough evidence to press charges. And based on this assumed pieced together story that I am guessing closely resembles Zimmerman's actual account, and without anything further, there is no justification to charge Zimmerman with anything.

Getting out of ones car to see where someone ran off to is not.....following, from the standpoint of Zimmerman. He certainly didnt feel like he was stalking anyone. Maybe Martin felt he was though. We dont know. But SYG does not allow Martin to attack Zimmerman at this point. He would have to believe he was either in fear for his life. If he was already out of Zimmerman's sight(which we know based on the recorded call, than Martin could not claim he was in fear for his life. If(and that is a big if) he doubled back and attacked Zimmerman, than Martin is the aggressor. Just like those are saying Zimmerman had no right under SYG if he was 'following' Martin, than Martin had no SYG right if he doubled back and ran towards Zimmerman. Again, we do not know anything that happened in those moments. This is ALL conjecture.

But I would be willing to put money on the story I pieced together above as being a close approximation of Zimmerman's story. Is it true? IDK. But if that story is backed up by other evidence and eye witness testimony, in whole or in part, than the DA would be justified in not charging Zimmerman with something. They need actual evidence that he committed a crime. They investigated it and found none. They can not fabricate evidence that says this is not true. They need real evidence to determine that Zimmerman was guilty of a crime. And I am sure they looked at a number of things that we have no idea of. If there was anything that caste doubt on Zimmerman's story, than the DA would have probable cause. We have no idea what evidence corroborates that story. It might ALL corroborate that story. But I am willing to bet that if there was any doubt, even a small bit of evidence to caste doubt on the story, Zimmerman would have been charged. But if the DA had nothing, what are they going to use to argue in court? That Zimmerman lied? Get up there and say, this will be the defendants story, blah blah blah. But, I am here to tell you that he lied. I have no evidence to back up my claim that he lied, but trust me...he did. That is not how our court system works.

The other argument would be that...by him stepping out of his car he removed his right to self-defense. Now, that is a losing case imo. And if that is all the DA had, he could maybe argue that case, but it would be an argument on Constitutional law. Not even State Law at that point. This case would have easily gone all the way up to the US Supreme Court if all the DA had was Zimmerman getting out of his car and running to see where another person ran off to.

Now. throw in the GF's account, after the investigation was already complete, and the family was told no charges would be filed....well, then now there is maybe something to use in court to argue that Zimmerman lied. But if that is all the evidence the DA has now, and other evidence that we know nothing about still corroborates Zimmerman's story.....well, I dont know what to tell you.

Heck. They may have Martins fingerprint on Zimmerman's gun for all we know, indicating an actual struggle for the gun took place. We really know very little about what actual evidence the DA had to determine if Zimmerman was lying, or telling the truth. There just might be a whole lot more than what we know. Maybe there isnt anything else though. If there isnt, this will come down to Zimmerman's word vs Martin's GF account. Now, you tell me how he could ever get a fair and impartial trial now, if that is all it boils down to, when Martin's Family's Lawyers have done a fine job vilifying him in the press?

Yeah. Whatever happened that day was a tragedy. I will 100% admit that. And there were mistakes possibly made all around. But Zimmerman has rights too. There are always more than one side to every story. And the only story the press has been telling for a long time is Martins. Maybe, it is time to look at this from how it would be argued in court. If the DA has nothing, besides the GF's telephone call, and the fact that Martin got out of his car to see where Martin ran off to? Its not much to hang a 2nd degree murder charge on someone. Not in our criminal justice system. In Florida, or in alot of states in this country.

Now, lets examine my motivations for seeing it this way.

Would the fallout that could happen from this case....effect gun rights and laws in this country? You betcha. If the story I told above is actually what happened, could I see gun laws change because of this case? Very possibly. And I wouldnt like that at all. So now, I ask you, why would I be telling Zimmerman's side of the story, when if it is true, it could actually adversely affect laws I care a lot about? Wouldnt it be easier for me to say....Zimmerman was a lone nut case! Zimmerman was a racist! Zimmerman racially profiled the kid! Zimmerman was wrong SOMEHOW! I wish I could believe any of those things, but legally....I just dont see it. From a legal standpoint with the way the current laws are written in Florida, getting out of ones car and running to see where someone ran...does not remove ones right to self-defense. That is the real bottom line.

What actually really happened that day? Who knows anymore.

 

[Joe the meek]

Ironically, I DO believe the so called "Stand Your Ground" law will come into play in this case, but not for Zimmerman. I believe it will be shown that it was Martin who was excercising his right to "stand his ground" against what he perceived as a threat, and that Zimmerman was the only true aggressor here.

If Martin had no obstacles (including Zimmerman in his way) to make that 65 yards home, and Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman when he could make it home, AND Zimmerman went for his gun after Martin jumped him, I don't think Martin has a case.

Now, if Zimmerman jumped Martin and Martin fought back and got the better end of the situation, perhaps.

For Martins girlfriend's story on the phone, you can bet your life the investigation will have everything they need to know if it hurts or helps their case.

 

[Alien Allen]

nice summation Jaybird

 

[Mercury]

nice summation Jaybird

Agreed. An excellent theory. It will be very interesting to see what comes out of this whole thing.

 

[Jaybird]

nice summation Jaybird

Thanks.

And trust me. I would love to be able to find some real legal fault with what Zimmerman did that day, only so I could feel better about the political storm that is brewing . But, I simply just cant. Not from what I was able to piece together.

Heck, I could be completely off in what I think Zimmerman's story is. But I dont think so. And if the DA has nothing to disprove that story, except now a possible suspect phone call from Martin's GF, which we really do not know exactly how it aligns with the timeline or nothing....I have to go with my gut.

That the DA did not have any evidence to say Zimmerman was lying. Could he have been? Maybe. IDK though. And even if the DA thought so, he would need something to prove Zimmerman was lying. Something. Anything. That is the whole....presumption of innocence, instead of the presumption of guilt thing.

IDK. Ugh. :/

 

[CityGirl]

To me, it boils down to Zimmerman's decision to get out of his car. It is the car door slam that was heard around the world.

 

[The Man]

To me, it boils down to Zimmerman's decision to get out of his car. It is the car door slam that was heard around the world.

To get out of the car to see where the young man was?...Are you associating that with guilt?
I will agree the incident would have likely never happened had he stayed in the car.
But he does have the right to get out of the car...and see "what that hell that guy is doing"

 

[CityGirl]

To get out of the car to see where the young man was?...Are you associating that with guilt?
I will agree the incident would have likely never happened had he stayed in the car
But he does have the right to get out of the car...and see "what that hell that guy is doing"

I'm just saying his decision to get out of his car set the stage for all the ensuing events. Sure, he had the "right" to get out of the car. His rights are not in question. His judgement is.