Trayvon Martin- Tragedy

[Jaybird]

I see a pattern of conservatives siding with Zimmerman. Do you disagree?

I am a former right winger of many years and know 100% of the right wings talking points by heart and have read more right wing propaganda and books than most professing conservatives. I went down the Libertarian road for a few years as well. Eventually, I came to see the hypocrisy of conservo-libertarianism and now consider myself an unapologetic Classical Liberal.

So, what's you political affiliation Jay?

Well, seeing that you were honest, so will I.

I have been, for almost 20 years, since I have been a registered voter, officially registered as an independent. I grew up in a very 'liberal' household. My parents are still very 'liberal'. I realized the hypocrisy of that view though at a very young age, but also did not align myself with a 'conservativ' policy, and therefore registered as an independent. In every election that I have voted in since then, I have voted for both major political parties, and some third parties as well. Ross Perot in 92 baby!!!

However, now? I would consider myself....socially liberal, fiscally conservative, and more politically libertarian. But I am still a registered independent, and have no desire to change that at this point. I am far from a Republican though. If I had to pick a party, it would be neither Blue or Red, and probably Libertarian, but even they do not align well with all of my beliefs. Therefore, I am an independent. I am....a swing voter, in probably one of the most important swing states in the county.

 

[Mercury]

Personally, I am don't see myself as conservative or liberal since both tend to ignore or exaggerate things because of their emotional connections to their beliefs.

I will agree that the tendencies with this case is that the officials handled it poorly and thus outrage. There are those who say this was all based on Zimmerman's racist motivation towards Martin ... I don't see how it is possible to reach such a conclusion since I haven't seen anything that suggests Zimmerman is a racist. There are those who suggest that Martin acted completely out of self-defense ... there isn't enough information available to back that up. At this point, it is all speculation ... and when speculation is all we have, NO ONE should be denouncing anyone until there is an investigation or trial. This is where the "mob mentality" has shown its ugly head once again.

If no investigation or trial occurs with this case, then this nation has sadly hindered itself from both justice and law.

 

[Jaybird]

100% of alleged "justifiable" homocides should at minumum charge the shooter with homocide until the full facts are discovered. The charges could then be dropped by a judge at a preliminary hearing. Nobody should be able to so easily kill another human being and walk away as if nothing happened.

Really? Well, that I simply disagree with. Of course, this is a political thing, and now that I know you are a liberal, at least I understand where you are coming from.

See, I would say, that someone can certainly be justified in a shooting, and that the prosecution can make the decision as to whether to charge someone or not. And it doesnt mean it is a cover-up, nor that anyone is getting away with anything, nor that it is being 'swept' under the rug. The prosecution makes those decisions every day on a slew of charges.

Do you think, that whenever someone is 'accused' of ANY crime, that after an investigation, no matter what is found out, that the person should be put on trial? Regardless of the evidence? If not, and you only think it is applicable when someone shoots another person with a gun, than I think you are the one biased here. Just sayin.

I dont think we will ever agree on this though, now that I know that your view is biased because of political ideology. At least I know where you are coming from though. *shrug*

 

[Johnfromokc]

If the nightwatchman was approached by this young man as said and we do know the young man whipped his ass This looks much better for the watchman.

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Given the transcripts of Zimmerman's call to police, it is clear Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Go look at the pictures I posted of the crime scene, read the transcripts and listen to the recordings. No sense getting that readily available information second hand.

Then add in the witness testimony of Martins girlfriend who stated she heard Zimmermen accost Martin and it does not look too good for Zimmerman.

All this information should be examined in court by a jury. There is far too much evidence that implicates, rather than exhonerates Zimmerman.

 

[Jaybird]

If no investigation or trial occurs with this case, then this nation has sadly hindered itself from both justice and law.

And this is the part that bothers me Mercury. But I understand your concern. An investigation did take place. It took over two weeks. Could it have been longer? Maybe, but how long should they have waited? This was already bubbling up when they turned over the investigation to the DA on March 13th.

If the Prosecution didnt think there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman with a crime, when they were actually looking at ALL of the evidence; Things we have no clue of; Things that we may never know; Things that could completely show that Zimmerman was justified in claiming self-defense, why should he be charged with a crime and put in jail and put through trial? That is what the prosecutors do every day in this country. They make the decision whether to charge someone with a crime or not. Unless you think like John....that anytime someone uses a gun to defend themselves, no matter what the investigation shows, that they should be charged with a crime. But, isnt that violating someones rights? If everytime someone uses a gun in self-defense that they are put on trial, no matter what the evidence, isnt someone that uses a gun in elf defense....guilty until proven innocent? That is what this case boils down to imo.

Of course, the 'mob' got their wish. The DA didnt want to touch this case(I think he knew it was a losing case from the get go), so they threw it at a Grand Jury. The Grand Jury is nothing more than a dog and pony show imo. I think they know much more than we do, and feel there is a clear case for self-defense, but because the media built a powder keg, they now need to go through with the dog and pony show. But that....is just pure speculation.

 

[The Man]

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Given the transcripts of Zimmerman's call to police, it is clear Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Go look at the pictures I posted of the crime scene, read the transcripts and listen to the recordings. No sense getting that readily available information second hand.

Then add in the witness testimony of Martins girlfriend who stated she heard Zimmermen accost Martin and it does not look too good for Zimmerman.

All this information should be examined in court by a jury. There is far too much evidence that implicates, rather than exhonerates Zimmerman.

will check it out after a while when the internet speeds back up

 

[Johnfromokc]

Really? Well, that I simply disagree with. Of course, this is a political thing, and now that I know you are a liberal, at least I understand where you are coming from.

See, I would say, that someone can certainly be justified in a shooting, and that the prosecution can make the decision as to whether to charge someone or not. And it doesnt mean it is a cover-up, nor that anyone is getting away with anything, nor that it is being 'swept' under the rug. The prosecution makes those decisions every day on a slew of charges.

Do you think, that whenever someone is 'accused' of ANY crime, that after an investigation, no matter what is found out, that the person should be put on trial? Regardless of the evidence? If not, and you only think it is applicable when someone shoots another person with a gun, than I think you are the one biased here. Just sayin.

I dont think we will ever agree on this though, now that I know that your view is biased because of political ideology. At least I know where you are coming from though. *shrug*

FYI I'm a registered Independent as well.

I am speaking specifically to homocide by any means here Jay. The taking of a human life.

As to home defense, my home is defended with a 12 gauge loaded with 3" magnum 00 buckshot. I have no intent to wound an intruder that has forcibly breeched my security. I intend to completely stop the threat. If that ever happened, I would expect to submit to a full investigation in order to show justification.

I would NEVER, under any circumstances, pursue an intruder outside my home or in my neighborhood. That's just not smart, and likely to land you in deep shit like Zimmerman.

When the Sanford prosecutor on call declined to show up at the scene of Martins homocide, taking the word of the police on the scene with no verification, and injusctice was committed.

Now, it needs to go to a jury trial, and all evidence examined, and then a verdict from the jury will fully and finally settle the issue. Can you agree with that?

 

[Jaybird]

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Given the transcripts of Zimmerman's call to police, it is clear Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Go look at the pictures I posted of the crime scene, read the transcripts and listen to the recordings. No sense getting that readily available information second hand.

Then add in the witness testimony of Martins girlfriend who stated she heard Zimmermen accost Martin and it does not look too good for Zimmerman.

All this information should be examined in court by a jury. There is far too much evidence that implicates, rather than exhonerates Zimmerman.

Look at John go. Your liberal cronies at MSNBC would be proud how you have soaked up so much garbage.

FYI...."It is clear Zimmerman went looking for Martin" is the most biased and unsubstantiated claim in your post. You, know nothing of those moments. Neither do I. Nothing is clear. You are not sitting there with the investigation in your hands. You have....nothing.

 

[Mercury]

And this is the part that bothers me Mercury. But I understand your concern. An investigation did take place. It took over two weeks. Could it have been longer? Maybe, but how long should they have waited? This was already bubbling up when they turned over the investigation to the DA on March 13th.

If the Prosecution didnt think there was enough evidence to charge Zimmerman with a crime, when they were actually looking at ALL of the evidence; Things we have no clue of; Things that we may never know; Things that could completely show that Zimmerman was justified in claiming self-defense, why should he be charged with a crime and put in jail and put through trial?

An excellent point!

 

[Joe the meek]

Now, it needs to go to a jury trial, and all evidence examined, and then a verdict from the jury will fully and finally settle the issue. Can you agree with that?

I could be wrong, but I believe there still is a possibility that this case still won't get to a jury.

That said, exactly where do you think a fair trial can be had?

 

[Alien Allen]

I am not siding with anybody

I am skeptical though

And I have faith that now that the feds and the state are involved they will sort it out

If there is evidence to go to trial then so be it.

In the meantime this is just a circus

 

[Jaybird]

Now, it needs to go to a jury trial, and all evidence examined, and then a verdict from the jury will fully and finally settle the issue. Can you agree with that?

I dont need that. If the Grand Jury comes back and says, there is nothing to charge Zimmerman with, I couldn't care less.

If the Grand Jury comes back, and says there is something to charge ZImmerman with, I also couldn't care less.

If than a trial commences, and at a pre-trial hearing, a judge throws out the case, I also couldn't care less.

If it gets past a pre-trial hearing, and goes to a full jury trial, I will be very surprised, but still couldn't care less.

If it goes to a full jury trial, and he is found not-guilty, I still couldn't care less. Although I would think it was a complete waste of tax payer money.

If it goes to a full trial, and he is found guilty? I will wait for the appeals before I say you were right. Once they are all done, and his conviction is upheld? Than I will come here, and tell you that you were right. Will you be happy than?

Will you do the same? At any of those stages? What will you do if the GJ comes back and says there is no evidence to charge him with a crime? Will you accept that John? Will you? How about if a judge throws it out at a pre-trial hearing? Will you? I doubt you will, but that is just a guess.

 

[The Man]

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Given the transcripts of Zimmerman's call to police, it is clear Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Go look at the pictures I posted of the crime scene, read the transcripts and listen to the recordings. No sense getting that readily available information second hand.

Then add in the witness testimony of Martins girlfriend who stated she heard Zimmermen accost Martin and it does not look too good for Zimmerman.

All this information should be examined in court by a jury. There is far too much evidence that implicates, rather than exhonerates Zimmerman.

I looked at the picture,,the only place you can basically have a clean line of site is if you are in between the 2 rows of building and possibly in one small area from the street.

Was the girlfriends cellphone going the entire time?

 

[Jaybird]

In the meantime this is just a circus

Yes. It has been. Ever since this thing was even a regional issue. Zimmerman was lambasted as a racist in Orlando Newspapers for a good week before this thing bubbled up to the state level from a regional level. Then it started to morph into...a little boy was chased down by a violent racist and shot in cold blood, and the racist police department covered the whole thing up when it bubbled from state to national news. What took it international? Meh. Who knows. I guess twitter, and celebrities pushing the same old BS. Oh, and the moveon.org crap.

The media loves a good story I guess. This is a textbook example of media bias imo. Look back on page 2 of this thread. When I came in here, and made a post of actual facts...no one here probably had heard any of that info. People were probably outraged and didnt believe a word I was saying. Everyone thought it was a little boy who had been chased down and shot in cold blood by a violent racist, and the racist Sanford PD was covering the whole thing up.

Now? At least enough real facts have been talked about, that we are talking about who confronted whom first, and what constitutes self-defense. Its a wonder what actual facts can do. Although, with the actual facts of this story, and without the blatant media bias pushing this every step of the way, no one would have cared. Some may think that is a good thing. I dont though. When our media turns into propaganda machine, and blatantly distorts truths to push an agenda, and build a powder keg of national emotions...typically, imo...only bad things can happen. But we shall see. *shrug*

 

[Mercury]

When our media turns into propaganda machine, and blatantly distorts truths to push an agenda, and build a powder keg of national emotions...typically, imo...only bad things can happen. But we shall see. *shrug*

Good point ... sounds familiar ...







Propaganda truly knows no bounds ...

 

[Johnfromokc]

Look at John go. Your liberal cronies at MSNBC would be proud how you have soaked up so much garbage.

Fuck you Jaybird. You are no independent. You exhibit all the signs of right wing asshattery with that dipshit comment. Nothing worse that a conservobot fucking liar. Go spew that right wing shit at your right wing gun forum.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I looked at the picture,,the only place you can basically have a clean line of site is if you are in between the 2 rows of building and possibly in one small area from the street.

And that's exactly where the killing took place - where Zimmerman had a clean line of sight. How about that?

Was the girlfriends cellphone going the entire time?

Yes. Up until Zimmerman approached Martin according to the girlfriend. Then, as she said, the line went dead. Her testimony refutes Zimmermans claim that Martin approached him.

 

[Minderella]

So Martin couldn't have turned around and began to approach Zimmerman?

 

[Johnfromokc]

So Martin couldn't have turned around and began to approach Zimmerman?

Why was Zimmernam following Martin in the first pace after being told not to?

 

[Jaybird]

Fuck you Jaybird. You are no independent. You exhibit all the signs of right wing asshattery with that dipshit comment. Nothing worse that a conservobot fucking liar. Go spew that right wing shit at your right wing gun forum.

Did I touch a nerve there John? Is MSNBC your favorite TV show? I bet you have it on right now, dontcha?

Oh, I am no Fox News lover. I know they are biased. I laugh at them sometimes. I also laugh at MSNBC, because they are just as biased, just the other way. CNN? Meh. They arent too bad. They lean a bit liberal. It really depends on the story with them. You have to watch all three though to get a full picture. Or better yet, read as much as you can on the Internet, on both sides. Because it is increasingly difficult to find any 'unbiased' news reporting anymore.

But if you think I am no independent because I think Fox is biased one way, and MSNBC is biased the other way....well, that is just your opinion. And a wrong opinion. HAHA