The Pledge of Allegiance (United States)

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Johnfromokc

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Do any of our international members force their school children to "pledge allegiance" to their flag or country every morning before school? Or is this just a weird American ritual?

Here is the pledge:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
"
This is how I feel about our pledge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2BfqDUPL1I
 
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CityGirl

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Bellamy_salute_pledge_of_Allegiance.88113737_std.jpg
 

Guyzerr

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Canada doesn't have a pledge such as yours but when I went to school back in the dark ages we were forced to sing our national anthem before the start of each day. God Save the Queen was saved for special occasions I think. I don't know if they still do it but I'm sure someone with school aged kids will probably answer that.
 

Kyle B

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In other countries students do something similar such as sing the national anthem, raise the flag etc. Students aren't forced to say the pledge of allegiance. They're more than free to not say it.
 

AnitaBeer

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I don't even remember being "forced" to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but I did say it every day happily. I wish kids still did this in school today.
 

AUFred

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When I was in school we said the pledge. We had prayer too. National Anthem was played often if I remember.
 

alice in chains

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they made us stand up every day when i was in elementary school, but to be honest, i just didn't give a shit. am i supposed to believe i don't like or love living here just because i don't say it? i think i mainly did not do it out of spite of the school for them EXPECTING me to sing it without question.
 

Francis

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Canada doesn't have a pledge such as yours but when I went to school back in the dark ages we were forced to sing our national anthem before the start of each day. God Save the Queen was saved for special occasions I think. I don't know if they still do it but I'm sure someone with school aged kids will probably answer that.

It still is, at least at Francis school for the anthem.

When i joined the government I had to pledge allegiance to the Queen but soon after they changed it to either Queen, Bible or just the Country.
 

Zorak

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Do any of our international members force their school children to "pledge allegiance" to their flag or country every morning before school? Or is this just a weird American ritual?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2BfqDUPL1I

It's a very North American tradition.
From a British and European view, I've always thought it bizarre, especially when they added the "under god" part. Which was a sign of the beginning of devolution, after trail blazing the Enlightenment.

Patriotism is a far more aggressive concept in America than elsewhere. The "pledge" is proof of that, it's less a pledge than a challenge: "If you really love this country you'll say it and you're fucking children will say it"
At least, that's the impression I get.
 

Panacea

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It's a very North American tradition.
From a British and European view, I've always thought it bizarre, especially when they added the "under god" part. Which was a sign of the beginning of devolution, after trail blazing the Enlightenment.

Patriotism is a far more aggressive concept in America than elsewhere. The "pledge" is proof of that, it's less a pledge than a challenge: "If you really love this country you'll say it and you're fucking children will say it"
At least, that's the impression I get.


I think this sums it up.

I find myself a bit averse to aggressive nationalism, and I get embarrassed by it sometimes. Sort of like...AMERRRICUHH FUCK YEAHHH. Don't think I've ever said I love my country, because that's not really a feeling I have, but I certainly think of my luck being born with Western freedoms, versus being some other places. That's not isolated to the US, as some seem to think it is. The US isn't the only country with freedom :p

In my school, we did say the pledge, but only as tiny children when we could be more easily forced to do things. I remember not knowing what half of the words meant, because I was 4 and in preschool. Indivisible was a tough word then, most of my peers just stopped shitting their pants a year or so earlier. heh
 

alice in chains

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It's a very North American tradition.
From a British and European view, I've always thought it bizarre, especially when they added the "under god" part. Which was a sign of the beginning of devolution, after trail blazing the Enlightenment.

Patriotism is a far more aggressive concept in America than elsewhere. The "pledge" is proof of that, it's less a pledge than a challenge: "If you really love this country you'll say it and you're fucking children will say it"
At least, that's the impression I get.


oh ya that's exactly what it is. american hicks and rednecks are EVERYWHERE, and theyre mainly the ones that promote this stuff without even contemplating it. must be nice to be in Europe!
 

CityGirl

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It's a very North American tradition.
From a British and European view, I've always thought it bizarre, especially when they added the "under god" part. Which was a sign of the beginning of devolution, after trail blazing the Enlightenment.

Patriotism is a far more aggressive concept in America than elsewhere. The "pledge" is proof of that, it's less a pledge than a challenge: "If you really love this country you'll say it and you're fucking children will say it"
At least, that's the impression I get.


Zorak's comment reminded me of George Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in which he distinguishes patriotism from nationalism.

He writes:

By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1). But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
So long as it is applied merely to the more notorious and identifiable nationalist movements in Germany, Japan, and other countries, all this is obvious enough. Confronted with a phenomenon like Nazism, which we can observe from the outside, nearly all of us would say much the same things about it. But here I must repeat what I said above, that I am only using the word ‘nationalism’ for lack of a better. Nationalism, in the extended sense in which I am using the word, includes such movements and tendencies as Communism, political Catholicism, Zionism, Antisemitism, Trotskyism and Pacifism. It does not necessarily mean loyalty to a government or a country, still less to one's own country, and it is not even strictly necessary that the units in which it deals should actually exist. To name a few obvious examples, Jewry, Islam, Christendom, the Proletariat and the White Race are all of them objects of passionate nationalistic feeling: but their existence can be seriously questioned, and there is no definition of any one of them that would be universally accepted.

It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist — that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating — but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also — since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself — unshakeably certain of being in the right.

It is an interesting essay for those who are inclined- http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat


 

Zorak

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I think this sums it up.

I find myself a bit averse to aggressive nationalism, and I get embarrassed by it sometimes. Sort of like...AMERRRICUHH FUCK YEAHHH. Don't think I've ever said I love my country, because that's not really a feeling I have, but I certainly think of my luck being born with Western freedoms, versus being some other places. That's not isolated to the US, as some seem to think it is. The US isn't the only country with freedom :p

I agree and like your idea of patriotism. Cherish the freedoms and privilege you have, but don't love something as paradoxical as a "Nation": Some hybrid of geographical physicality and collected ethereal consciousness.

Of course, forms of aggressive nationalism have existed in modern Europe, and reached their culmination between the 30's and 70's. It's a very, very dangerous ethos. Situations are completely different of course, and you'd be a fool to draw too many parallels between American nationalism and the nationalism of, say, Germany under Hitler, Italy with Mussolini or Franco in Spain. For one thing, America, like France & England, can draw upon a clearer and more defined sense of nationality than Spain or Italy. This certainly helps, these countries never had need of a despot who could exploit the desire for uniformity. For the most part, the people of these countries already possessed the innate understanding of what their nationality was, or at least, had already undergone the process to achieving this.

As to what defines a "nation", there are a million reasons, and you could argue indefinitely, factors such as geography, race & religion, culture can break up nations; but I believe war is the major factor in shaping them. "Patriotism is the shared hatred of a common neighbour." America was created through a war with England\Britain. England and France were shaped (in an albeit lengthier and more complex process) by wars with each other. Whereas in the last major European war, both Italy and Spain regressed from external conflict to fight internally.
 

Panacea

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I agree and like your idea of patriotism. Cherish the freedoms and privilege you have, but don't love something as paradoxical as a "Nation": Some hybrid of geographical physicality and collected ethereal consciousness.

Of course, forms of aggressive nationalism have existed in modern Europe, and reached their culmination between the 30's and 70's. It's a very, very dangerous ethos. Situations are completely different of course, and you'd be a fool to draw too many parallels between American nationalism and the nationalism of, say, Germany under Hitler, Italy with Mussolini or Franco in Spain. For one thing, America, like France & England, can draw upon a clearer and more defined sense of nationality than Spain or Italy. This certainly helps, these countries never had need of a despot who could exploit the desire for uniformity. For the most part, the people of these countries already possessed the innate understanding of what their nationality was, or at least, had already undergone the process to achieving this.

As to what defines a "nation", there are a million reasons, and you could argue indefinitely, factors such as geography, race & religion, culture can break up nations; but I believe war is the major factor in shaping them. "Patriotism is the shared hatred of a common neighbour." America was created through a war with England\Britain. England and France were shaped (in an albeit lengthier and more complex process) by wars with each other. Whereas in the last major European war, both Italy and Spain regressed from external conflict to fight internally.

This definitely seems to be the problem I have with the sentiment; it goes beyond just a casual "Hey, I really like living here"/"I'm glad I was born here" into a proud mocking or as far as a pure hatred for any place else.

When I visit Canada, I notice they put their maple leaf on everything, but it doesn't carry the same connotation. I rarely see the American flag pasted without an aggressive "I SUPPORT MY TROOPS WHENEVER THEY GO! NO COMFORT TO THE ENEMY, NO WAY!" text accompanying it lol. Our flag, then, isn't about the country and it's culture, it's about our wars...which...may be our culture.
 
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