Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

[Greatest I am]

Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?

 

[BornReady]

I think free will is way over rated. Parents don't give it to their children. Nor do bosses give it to their employees. Nor does OTz give it to members. Nor does society give it to citizens. So, if God exists and has authority over us then why do people think he should give free will to us?

I'm an ardent supporter of freedom. But unlimited freedom is ridiculous. The freedom for someone to swing his arm ends before the tip of my nose. Now oppression is another thing. Certainly, authorities should not oppress anyone. If they do then it's time to either get out from under their authority or over throw them.

 

[Accountable]

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.

True, but what if that plan was like every plan that we make, subject to alteration due to circumstances at the point of implementation? Parents make "plans" for their children all the time, but they seldom turn out exactly they hope because of free will, or at least because no one behaves exactly according to plan.

Any reason why God's plan for us is not the same as a parent's plan for his child?

 

[cam elle toe]

True, but what if that plan was like every plan that we make, subject to alteration due to circumstances at the point of implementation? Parents make "plans" for their children all the time, but they seldom turn out exactly they hope because of free will, or at least because no one behaves exactly according to plan.

Any reason why God's plan for us is not the same as a parent's plan for his child?

Beat me to it.

We and HE, have the free will to change the plan. Just because His is a "divine" one...(according to "

That" book) doesnt mean it cant be changed.

 

[Greatest I am]

I think free will is way over rated. Parents don't give it to their children. Nor do bosses give it to their employees. Nor does OTz give it to members. Nor does society give it to citizens. So, if God exists and has authority over us then why do people think he should give free will to us?

I'm an ardent supporter of freedom. But unlimited freedom is ridiculous. The freedom for someone to swing his arm ends before the tip of my nose. Now oppression is another thing. Certainly, authorities should not oppress anyone. If they do then it's time to either get out from under their authority or over throw them.

Yes, freedom is rather a strange concept. If we were all free and did not follow the rules we do, it would be what no one wants. Anarchy.
Imagine if we all decided to exercise our freedom on the highways. What carnage we would have.
Man is a rule follower. That is basically what we do all day long.

We do still have free choice though. We are all free at this very moment to grab a gun and go killing. happily, most of us use a little thing I call, intelligent use of freedom of choice.

Without this, we would be no better than packs of dogs.

You are right in freedom being overrated. We can exercise it fully only a very few times in our lives.

B R, I must say Buddy, you surprise me with your grasp of things. I give it to few but respect grows.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

True, but what if that plan was like every plan that we make, subject to alteration due to circumstances at the point of implementation? Parents make "plans" for their children all the time, but they seldom turn out exactly they hope because of free will, or at least because no one behaves exactly according to plan.

Any reason why God's plan for us is not the same as a parent's plan for his child?

If we do have free will then it must be. The problem with that then is that God cannot be omnipotent.
If theists start to take God's attributes away from him, they will end in a watered down version of God and then he would look more like the cosmic consciousness that I believe in. We would then be at the beginning again. That would be better than what we have created but I do not think theists will give up that easily. They prefer to look stupid by trying to explain the paradox I have laid out.

Because they give him the status of creator, they must assume he created for a purpose and has a plan to express this purpose.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Beat me to it.

We and HE, have the free will to change the plan. Just because His is a "divine" one...(according to "

That" book) doesnt mean it cant be changed.

I like the idea of God evolving and changing along with man but theists will not have it.
The Godhead I know does just that but he is not a religion----yet.

Regards
DL

 

[cam elle toe]

I like the idea of God evolving and changing along with man but theists will not have it.
The Godhead I know does just that but he is not a religion----yet.

Regards
DL

It makes no sense to me, that He would stay stagnant, whilst everything else changed.

 

[Greatest I am]

It makes no sense to me, that He would stay stagnant, whilst everything else changed.

Religions know that their positions are based on imaginary Gods and once invented, they fear changing them because then the people would realize that they are all man made.

They fear losing their jobs.

Religion is a make work project. I think it always has been.

Regards
DL

 

[Kyle B]

Yes, freedom is rather a strange concept. If we were all free and did not follow the rules we do, it would be what no one wants. Anarchy.
Imagine if we all decided to exercise our freedom on the highways. What carnage we would have.
Man is a rule follower. That is basically what we do all day long.

We do still have free choice though. We are all free at this very moment to grab a gun and go killing. happily, most of us use a little thing I call, intelligent use of freedom of choice.

Without this, we would be no better than packs of dogs.

You are right in freedom being overrated. We can exercise it fully only a very few times in our lives.

B R, I must say Buddy, you surprise me with your grasp of things. I give it to few but respect grows.

Regards
DL

You have free will to do anything you wish. You just choose not to.

 

[Greatest I am]

You have free will to do anything you wish. You just choose not to.

Yes. As I said, if we did not follow the rules, it would be chaos.

Freedom and free will is not something that can be given to us as like from some God.
Freedom is something that can only be taken.

Regards
DL

 

[Kyle B]

Yes. As I said, if we did not follow the rules, it would be chaos.

Freedom and free will is not something that can be given to us as like from some God.
Freedom is something that can only be taken.

Regards
DL

If a God is omnipotent it can do anything it wishes.

 

[Accountable]

If we do have free will then it must be. The problem with that then is that God cannot be omnipotent.

Of course he can. Having the power to do anything does not require the use of that power. It could be that God chooses to limit Himself (Itself?) and allow us to make certain choices for ourselves, while keeping some rules, such as gravity, unbreakable.

 

[BornReady]

The idea that any being is omnipotent seems too convenient. I think God's omnipotence is a result of pissing contests between different religions. The same psychology that causes kids at school to say, "My dad can beat up your dad!"

 

[satinbutterfly]

Of course he can. Having the power to do anything does not require the use of that power. It could be that God chooses to limit Himself (Itself?) and allow us to make certain choices for ourselves, while keeping some rules, such as gravity, unbreakable.

Well said, and what I believe. :thumbup

 

[Greatest I am]

If a God is omnipotent it can do anything it wishes.

Sure and that would mean that there is a flexible changeable plan and that is not Christian thinking.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Of course he can. Having the power to do anything does not require the use of that power. It could be that God chooses to limit Himself (Itself?) and allow us to make certain choices for ourselves, while keeping some rules, such as gravity, unbreakable.

It is possible, anything is possible to theists, for God to do anything. His record though as shown with that little list of quirks at the bottom of my O P shows that if omnipotent, he certainly chooses to not be quite often. In fact, we have more that shows him not than otherwise.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The idea that any being is omnipotent seems too convenient. I think God's omnipotence is a result of pissing contests between different religions. The same psychology that causes kids at school to say, "My dad can beat up your dad!"

Insightful. Thanks for this.
That is how the word God has been blown so out of proportions and made rather useless.

If omnipotent then the proof is in the doing and there are way too many examples of this lack of omnipotence.

Like his being surprised to find Satan in heaven.
Would a God build his plan on a shaky foundation from day one? Not logically and rather stupidly.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well said, and what I believe. :thumbup

Then, for his reputation and good name, he would have logically restricted his murdering powers all over the O T don't you think?

Restricting one omnipotence in order to allow genocide is completely illogical as a moral God would cure instead of murder those he thought unfit.

Right?

Regards
DL

 

[Accountable]

Sure and that would mean that there is a flexible changeable plan and that is not Christian thinking.

I don't recall Jesus mentioning an inflexible plan, but I'm hardly a scholar. Of course, Jesus wasn't a Christian, though.
But if Christians follow something that Jesus never postulated, it can't legitimately be called Christian, can it?