Why should I respect these oppressive religions? - Johann Hari

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Meirionnydd

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I think this was quite an interesting article...

The Independent said:
The right to criticise religion is being slowly doused in acid. Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism – giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds – are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion. A historic marker has just been passed, showing how far we have been shoved. The UN rapporteur who is supposed to be the global guardian of free speech has had his job rewritten – to put him on the side of the religious censors.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated 60 years ago that "a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief is the highest aspiration of the common people". It was a Magna Carta for mankind – and loathed by every human rights abuser on earth. Today, the Chinese dictatorship calls it "Western", Robert Mugabe calls it "colonialist", and Dick Cheney calls it "outdated". The countries of the world have chronically failed to meet it – but the document has been held up by the United Nations as the ultimate standard against which to check ourselves. Until now.

Starting in 1999, a coalition of Islamist tyrants, led by Saudi Arabia, demanded the rules be rewritten. The demand for everyone to be able to think and speak freely failed to "respect" the "unique sensitivities" of the religious, they decided – so they issued an alternative Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. It insisted that you can only speak within "the limits set by the shariah [law]. It is not permitted to spread falsehood or disseminate that which involves encouraging abomination or forsaking the Islamic community".

In other words, you can say anything you like, as long as it precisely what the reactionary mullahs tell you to say. The declaration makes it clear there is no equality for women, gays, non-Muslims, or apostates. It has been backed by the Vatican and a bevy of Christian fundamentalists.

Incredibly, they are succeeding. The UN's Rapporteur on Human Rights has always been tasked with exposing and shaming those who prevent free speech – including the religious. But the Pakistani delegate recently demanded that his job description be changed so he can seek out and condemn "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets". The council agreed – so the job has been turned on its head. Instead of condemning the people who wanted to murder Salman Rushdie, they will be condemning Salman Rushdie himself.

Anything which can be deemed "religious" is no longer allowed to be a subject of discussion at the UN – and almost everything is deemed religious. Roy Brown of the International Humanist and Ethical Union has tried to raise topics like the stoning of women accused of adultery or child marriage. The Egyptian delegate stood up to announce discussion of shariah "will not happen" and "Islam will not be crucified in this council" – and Brown was ordered to be silent. Of course, the first victims of locking down free speech about Islam with the imprimatur of the UN are ordinary Muslims.

Here is a random smattering of events that have taken place in the past week in countries that demanded this change. In Nigeria, divorced women are routinely thrown out of their homes and left destitute, unable to see their children, so a large group of them wanted to stage a protest – but the Shariah police declared it was "un-Islamic" and the marchers would be beaten and whipped. In Saudi Arabia, the country's most senior government-approved cleric said it was perfectly acceptable for old men to marry 10-year-old girls, and those who disagree should be silenced. In Egypt, a 27-year-old Muslim blogger Abdel Rahman was seized, jailed and tortured for arguing for a reformed Islam that does not enforce shariah.

To the people who demand respect for Muslim culture, I ask: which Muslim culture? Those women's, those children's, this blogger's – or their oppressors'?

As the secular campaigner Austin Darcy puts it: "The ultimate aim of this effort is not to protect the feelings of Muslims, but to protect illiberal Islamic states from charges of human rights abuse, and to silence the voices of internal dissidents calling for more secular government and freedom."

Those of us who passionately support the UN should be the most outraged by this.

Underpinning these "reforms" is a notion seeping even into democratic societies – that atheism and doubt are akin to racism. Today, whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents immediately claim they are the victims of "prejudice" – and their outrage is increasingly being backed by laws.

All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him.

I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. This is not because of "prejudice" or "ignorance", but because there is no evidence for these claims. They belong to the childhood of our species, and will in time look as preposterous as believing in Zeus or Thor or Baal.

When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade.

But why are religious sensitivities so much more likely to provoke demands for censorship than, say, political sensitivities? The answer lies in the nature of faith. If my views are challenged I can, in the end, check them against reality. If you deregulate markets, will they collapse? If you increase carbon dioxide emissions, does the climate become destabilised? If my views are wrong, I can correct them; if they are right, I am soothed.

But when the religious are challenged, there is no evidence for them to consult. By definition, if you have faith, you are choosing to believe in the absence of evidence. Nobody has "faith" that fire hurts, or Australia exists; they know it, based on proof. But it is psychologically painful to be confronted with the fact that your core beliefs are based on thin air, or on the empty shells of revelation or contorted parodies of reason. It's easier to demand the source of the pesky doubt be silenced.

But a free society cannot be structured to soothe the hardcore faithful. It is based on a deal. You have an absolute right to voice your beliefs – but the price is that I too have a right to respond as I wish. Neither of us can set aside the rules and demand to be protected from offence.

Yet this idea – at the heart of the Universal Declaration – is being lost. To the right, it thwacks into apologists for religious censorship; to the left, it dissolves in multiculturalism. The hijacking of the UN Special Rapporteur by religious fanatics should jolt us into rescuing the simple, battered idea disintegrating in the middle: the equal, indivisible human right to speak freely.

Johann Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions? - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent
 
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SgtSpike

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Good article. And despite being a "religious" person myself, I agree that this is just plain wrong. Freedom of speech should be allowed in the UN, as well as anywhere else in the world.
 

Sylviane88

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First, when you get to know what is Islam, you will automatically know why you should respect it :thumbup .. I remember when I was atheist, I was totally deceived by such lies :(.

Now, I'm muslim thanks to Allah who helped me to get the way of the truth (which is hidden by those evils).

Meirionnydd, did you try to know something true about Islam before you brought this topic written surely by a zionist who hates Islam ( the religion of freedom and peace ).

I'm ready to start three topics with you about Islam, christianity and judaism, and we both will uncover their truth with proofs from their holy book. what is your opinion ? :nod:;)

Cordially - Sylviane :)

 

skyblue

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First, when you get to know what is Islam, you will automatically know why you should respect it :thumbup .. I remember when I was atheist, I was totally deceived by such lies :(.

Now, I'm muslim thanks to Allah who helped me to get the way of the truth (which is hidden by those evils).

Meirionnydd, did you try to know something true about Islam before you brought this topic written surely by a zionist who hates Islam ( the religion of freedom and peace ).

I'm ready to start three topics with you about Islam, christianity and judaism, and we both will uncover their truth with proofs from their holy book. what is your opinion ? :nod:;)

Cordially - Sylviane :)


you want someone to believe something you say when it was you who declared that hamas has never fired missiles at israel
 

pinkerton

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Although a non muslim myself, I have many muslim friends and colleagues who will find some of the practices described in the article above as abhorrent as any other rational human being.The point here is that one should look at things in the proper perspective here.
The UN as most people would agree has been reduced to no more than a sinecure - I do commend the humanitarian and relief work that the UN carries out but on taking a closer look , one will realise that in the areas of safeguarding human rights , religious oppression/conflicts etc.the UN is probably absolutely
ineffctive.The problem being where the world body should draw the line between being an international watchdog and being seen as a meddlesome pest and as far as religious issues are concerned, they seem to arise more due to lack of knowledge (and hence respect)of each others faiths rather than anything else!
 

Sylviane88

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you want someone to believe something you say when it was you who declared that hamas has never fired missiles at israel

Where did I say so ???:ninja my friend I said:

Although Hamas have not fired rockets as you imagine, I can say in all candor: Even if they will decide to fire rockets, they will have the right to do so because they will defend their own lands stolen by other strange assassins.

and if you're a little more intelligent, you will see that I already say:

I have proofs that hamas's rockets never exceeded 30 friendly fire /day .. moreover, no one in Israel was hurt by Hamas's rockets ! Except a very small number of Israeli soldiers who were slightly injured.

Mr Skyblue we are talking here about a religious matter and not political :) .. Therefore, do not come out on the subject, please !:thumbup
 

Peter Parka

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I'll respect religions when they respect me and my beliefs. The ones who dont I haven't got the time of day for and can go fuck themselves and their shitty god as far as I'm concerned.:thumbup:)
 

skyblue

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thing is mr sylviane......all of your posts are pro muslim.....thats all you post here.....its almost as if you want to convert us all by stating facts which you seem to think are fact,where some might be others aren't......i'm sure that if any member here was that interested they go to sites and find out for themselves
 

Minor Axis

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Excuse this meandering post...
Tolerance is the way forward. At one point in recent time local Churches seemed tolerant, inviting members of other faiths to their services, not as a recruitment tool but as a friendship tool. I witnessed this in the Lutheran Church in the 90's (when I still went to church). This seems very different than in previous times when various Christian based religions seemed more hostile towards one another. Example when I (raised Presbyterian) told my Dad me and my Catholic wife were going to raise our son Catholic, he said it was like having a death in the family... That is how they used to think. Or do they still think that way? :)

However when it comes to Middle Eastern muslim nations who honestly I don't know if they were ever tolerant now seem completely intolerant and moving towards militancy regarding those who don't share their views. That does not seem to be the case with Muslim's living in the U.S., at least not yet. However the page will turn when the fist suicide bomber, traced to a U.S. based mosque explodes. I hope that never happens.

Bottom line when your group feels the need to enforce your religion's standards on other people by means of violence then you are lost and are traveling down the long troubled path of religion over the ages.

When it comes to Israel and Palestine, I wonder if Israel agreed to leave the occupied lands would that fix anything or would the zealots continue to insist on the destruction of Israel? Not only religious but there are cultural and economic issues at work there.
 

SgtSpike

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First, when you get to know what is Islam, you will automatically know why you should respect it :thumbup .. I remember when I was atheist, I was totally deceived by such lies :(.

Now, I'm muslim thanks to Allah who helped me to get the way of the truth (which is hidden by those evils).

Meirionnydd, did you try to know something true about Islam before you brought this topic written surely by a zionist who hates Islam ( the religion of freedom and peace ).

I'm ready to start three topics with you about Islam, christianity and judaism, and we both will uncover their truth with proofs from their holy book. what is your opinion ? :nod:;)

Cordially - Sylviane :)

How can you say Islam is a religion of freedom and peace when there are suicide bombers killing people in allah's name almost every day?
 

skyblue

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How can you say Islam is a religion of freedom and peace when there are suicide bombers killing people in allah's name almost every day?

my guess is that he'll say that suicide bombers are fiction made up by the deceitful israelies
 

Sylviane88

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How can you say Islam is a religion of freedom and peace when there are suicide bombers killing people in allah's name almost every day?

I'm talking about Islam, not about who thinks/claims he is following it ! .. Islam clearly does not permit so !. I have to tell you that terrorism and suicide are strictly fobidden in Islam.

Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat that include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good people were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause.
Allah says : "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Qur'an 2:190)
"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Qur'an 2:193)
"If they seek peace, then you seek peace. And trust in God for He is the One that hears and knows all things." (Qur'an 8:61)


Now about suicide: when islam forbids kill, this time "suicide" is killing yourself, so it is strictly forbidden in islam,

Quran says clearly that suicide is forbidden. read: "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30)


Cordially - Sylviane :)
 

Accountable

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I'm talking about Islam, not about who thinks/claims he is following it ! .. Islam clearly does not permit so !. I have to tell you that terrorism and suicide are strictly fobidden in Islam.

Like Christianity, Islam permits fighting in self-defense, in defense of religion, or on the part of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. It lays down strict rules of combat that include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock. As Muslims see it, injustice would be triumphant in the world if good people were not prepared to risk their lives in a righteous cause.
Allah says : "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Qur'an 2:190)
"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Qur'an 2:193)
"If they seek peace, then you seek peace. And trust in God for He is the One that hears and knows all things." (Qur'an 8:61)


Now about suicide: when islam forbids kill, this time "suicide" is killing yourself, so it is strictly forbidden in islam,

Quran says clearly that suicide is forbidden. read: "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30)


Cordially - Sylviane :)
Do you think (as I do) that the terrorists can show themselves supporting each of those passages? Firstly, they are fighting in defense of their religion and their lands, which they see as being under attack by Western culture and ideology. As for the passages:

1. This one would be sticky, but I'll bet they don't see themselves as having transgressed anything.
2. They are fighting until we stop. We'll fight until they stop. They don't trust us because we are not of Islam, so won't believe any temporary cease fire.
3. Again, any gesture toward peace from infidels is probably just a ploy. History has shown as much.
4. The key words are rancour and injustice. I'm sure they see themselves sacrificing their lives in battle in the name of justice, and rather than rancor, they feel filled with the power of Allah.

Interpreting ancient text is tricky.
 

Sylviane88

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Do you think (as I do) that the terrorists can show themselves supporting each of those passages?

I think they aren't even muslims ! :thumbup How can they be muslims while they are disobeying the law of God (Quran) , they are killing innocents ( the victims are atheists, christians, and even muslims) ? ... !!! a muslim cannot do that, my friend ! even if some of them were muslims ! doing so makes them out of Islam. then Islam will not be the responsible of what they are doing !

You say they don't believe in these verses of the "ancien text" ( as you said ) .. my friend, being muslim means that you have to believe in all the Quran ( not only some ) you have to believe in all the bible sent to jesus, you have to believe in all the holy books of Allah ! otherwise, you are out of islam.

Unfortunately, western people doesn't know anything about Islam except the lies spread by the media which hate Islam and make it bad and a "nightmare" of the world. :( Western people thinks that muslims cannot live with other non-muslim people in a land, while Allah clearly said: "" There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing."" [Quran 2:256].

Cordially - Sylviane :)
 
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