What makes you think ?

[doombug]

Existent not by pure accident = god?
Get whiplash jumping to that conclusion?

Are you saying you agree?

 

[Francis]

 

[Panacea]

Are you saying you agree?

No, I think that argument makes unjustified assumptions and is more congruent with human desire for emotional meaning and purpose than it is with possibility. I think it's quite boring and safe to limit oneself to "Universe; therefore god". It would seem the possibilities for the universe's origin and meaning/lacktherof are endless.

 

[doombug]

No, I think that argument makes unjustified assumptions and is more congruent with human desire for emotional meaning and purpose than it is with possibility. I think it's quite boring and safe to limit oneself to "Universe; therefore god". It would seem the possibilities for the universe's origin and meaning/lacktherof are endless.

Or could this be an excuse for intellectual laziness?

 

[Panacea]

Or could this be an excuse for intellectual laziness?

Not in my eyes, if the person is still pondering and learning, and wondering about life...it's the exact opposite.
As I eluded to before, I feel intellectual laziness is assuming the answers to the universe are already known, thanks to the bible or some other ancient holy text. Case closed? Really?

 

[doombug]

Not in my eyes, if the person is still pondering and learning, and wondering about life...it's the exact opposite. Asks I eluded to before, I feel intellectual laziness is assuming the answers to the universe are already known, thanks to the bible or some other ancient holy text. Case closed? Really?

You claim to be bored with the topic and tired of discussing it and that is fair enough. Just as it is fair enough for those who have faith and are satisfied with what they believe. And the same goes for those who still discuss such things. So why would someone who finds this topic so boring even attempt to comment on it? There are tons of forums with boring topics that I don't participate in....because I find them boring.

 

[BleedingBull]

damn that makes you think I believe cos Ive had personal reasons to, but its a private thing and I wouldnt ram it up someones ass unless they were into that hmm may have let my mind wander a bit .oops

 

[doombug]

Thank god for Atheists?

Really?



Starving children in North Korea....

Famines, mass-starvation, and constant hunger in North Korea are not natural disasters. Rather, they are commissioned by the government through a series of strategic socio-economic and political choices. By a man named Kim Jong IL....



Who is also an Atheist.

 

[Minor Axis]

The silliness of human beings relating to their deity. (first 2) I don't believe God, if such an entity exists as we imagine him, micromanages events on Earth. Human beings for the most part call the shots here.

You realise there's no such thing as a satisfying answer to this question.

In addition to being the 1015 thread on this subject. I guess it's a testament to our desire to figure this out...

Really?



Starving children in North Korea....

Famines, mass-starvation, and constant hunger in North Korea are not natural disasters. Rather, they are commissioned by the government through a series of strategic socio-economic and political choices. By a man named Kim Jong IL....



Who is also an Atheist.

Are you saying ole Kim is a bad person specifically because he is an atheist? If so we'd have to include Evangelical Christians among the most heinous of individuals.

 

[doombug]

The silliness of human beings relating to their deity.

What is wrong with being thankful even for the smallest things? If you were to lose your keys and were locked out of your house wouldn't you be thankful if you found them?

(first 2) I don't believe God, if such an entity exists as we imagine him, micromanages events on Earth.

How do you imagine God? Many see God as being in all places at all times. Some have even said there are nine dimensions and God is able to exist in all of them. So why would God not have the ability to "micromanage" things on this tiny particle called Earth?

Human beings for the most part call the shots here.

I don't know if humans "call the shots" here on Earth but we do seem to have alot of control of our environment. That is why picture #3 is disturbing to me. Not so much that suffering exists on this planet but there is a country where children die of starvation while in another country there is considered to be an obesity epidemic....Let that sink in.....That is a clear reflection of how poorly mankind manages this planet.

In addition to being the 1015 thread on this subject. I guess it's a testament to our desire to figure this out...

Are you really hoping for such things to be figured out on an internet forum? I thought the purpose was to discuss certain subjects pertaining to a specific theme.
From what I have seen so far this forum is nothing but mostly non-believers sitting around "poo-pooing" God and Christians. If you guys are really trying to figure the subject of God out let me know if you find anything.

Are you saying ole Kim is a bad person specifically because he is an atheist? If so we'd have to include Evangelical Christians among the most heinous of individuals.

No, I am lending balance to the thread by offering a counterpoint to the statement "Thank God for Atheists".
Dr Briend did a wonderful thing but I doubt it has anything to do with his being an Atheist.

I would hardly compare some Televangelists acts to what is considered genocide.

 

[Minor Axis]

What is wrong with being thankful even for the smallest things? If you were to lose your keys and were locked out of your house wouldn't you be thankful if you found them?

Actually I frequently send a thank you out when I find my lost keys, but I don't know where it goes or if anyone is listening, and I don't imagine it going to my father in the sky who is watching my back. Maybe it is a hedge my bets weakness. But I really take issue when two teams are playing football and each are praying to God for victory. Like God is going to cheat?? How about letting them win on their own merit for Christ sake...

How do you imagine God? Many see God as being in all places at all times. Some have even said there are nine dimensions and God is able to exist in all of them. So why would God not have the ability to "micromanage" things on this tiny particle called Earth?

I did not say if a God existed, it could not micromanage events, it could, but by human mortal standards, as a general practice, I don't see it. Too many good things happen to bad people, too many bad things happen to good people. For all I know certain crucial events could be micromanaged, but that is pure speculation. With what I have to go on, I believe events happen as they may, that humans make the Earth what it is. There are no guarantees, if you take the wrong turn or make a mistake you'll be squashed like a bug. I believe if there is a purpose to our lives, it is to have an opportunity to learn something and improve ourselves and even if you die young, maybe you'll get multiple chances to learn.

I don't know if humans "call the shots" here on Earth but we do seem to have alot of control of our environment. That is why picture #3 is disturbing to me. Not so much that suffering exists on this planet but there is a country where children die of starvation while in another country there is considered to be an obesity epidemic....Let that sink in.....That is a clear reflection of how poorly mankind manages this planet.

Various groups of humans spend a lot of time patting ourselves on the back, but as a superior species/civilization, we have a long way to go, if we don't exterminate ourselves in the mean time.

Are you really hoping for such things to be figured out on an internet forum? I thought the purpose was to discuss certain subjects pertaining to a specific theme.
From what I have seen so far this forum is nothing but mostly non-believers sitting around "poo-pooing" God and Christians. If you guys are really trying to figure the subject of God out let me know if you find anything.

No more then sitting down to participate in any group discussion. People "poo-poo" religion because of its irrational close minded positions. It is when people latch on to a concept and don't want to consider any other possibilities, when there is no evidence to support their beliefs, just a gut feeling. Which could be right, but the world to them now turns around this unproven concept. I'm not saying don't have faith, I'm saying they should not close off their mind because it makes them feel good about the uncertainty of death and the benefactor who is going to take care of them on that fateful day.

No, I am lending balance to the thread by offering a counterpoint to the statement "Thank God for Atheists".
Dr Briend did a wonderful thing but I doubt it has anything to do with his being an Atheist.

I would hardly compare some Televangelists acts to what is considered genocide.

How about hypocrisy? You are still implying that these evil things were done in part because a person is an Atheist. There is no bearing on how moral people are based on if they believe in God or not. Morality comes from within. It's not a God dictated rule that only followers of Christ or other major religions can agree too. Which brings me to another theme I've promoted in this forum...

If you follow the 10 commandants are you moral or just a good rule follower?

 

[darkcgi]

this isnt heaven where we are now
dont forget
but it aint hell either

 

[Johnfromokc]

 

[darkcgi]

please tell me that is not your personal thought on it

 

[Johnfromokc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

 

[doombug]

Actually I frequently send a thank you out when I find my lost keys, but I don't know where it goes or if anyone is listening, and I don't imagine it going to my father in the sky who is watching my back. Maybe it is a hedge my bets weakness.

But if you are a true non-believer why would you feel the need to "hedge your bets"?

But I really take issue when two teams are playing football and each are praying to God for victory. Like God is going to cheat?? How about letting them win on their own merit for Christ sake...

If you are a true non-believer why would it bother you if an athlete prays for something? Maybe the player is praying for the ability to play at his best in hopes of winning.

I did not say if a God existed, it could not micromanage events, it could, but by human mortal standards, as a general practice, I don't see it.

But God is capable of such things as you say then why hold Him to human mortal standards? To me this kind of thinking proves a human's inability to even begin to understand the concept of God.

Too many good things happen to bad people, too many bad things happen to good people. For all I know certain crucial events could be micromanaged, but that is pure speculation. With what I have to go on, I believe events happen as they may, that humans make the Earth what it is. There are no guarantees, if you take the wrong turn or make a mistake you'll be squashed like a bug.

There are many things our human minds have trouble with isn't there. That makes a great case for just having faith doesn't it. Maybe faith is necessary for humans.

I believe if there is a purpose to our lives, it is to have an opportunity to learn something and improve ourselves and even if you die young, maybe you'll get multiple chances to learn.

No one knows for sure how many chances people get to learn, maybe just the one that we know of. I do like your thought on the purpose of life is being an opportunity to learn something and improve ourselves. Many people choose religion to do so and it works well for them.

Various groups of humans spend a lot of time patting ourselves on the back, but as a superior species/civilization, we have a long way to go, if we don't exterminate ourselves in the mean time.

Agree with you on that.

No more then sitting down to participate in any group discussion. People "poo-poo" religion because of its irrational close minded positions. It is when people latch on to a concept and don't want to consider any other possibilities, when there is no evidence to support their beliefs, just a gut feeling. Which could be right, but the world to them now turns around this unproven concept.

Truth is nothing has been proven so all that anyone has is a "gut feeling" to support their beliefs or non-beliefs. I have seen many closed minded people who were believers as well as non-believers. This tells me it is a human tendency.

I'm not saying don't have faith, I'm saying they should not close off their mind because it makes them feel good about the uncertainty of death and the benefactor who is going to take care of them on that fateful day.

I don't doubt some people do as you described but many have faith because they understand human's as not being capable of understanding all things. They see faith as being necessary while living not just a requirement when they die.

How about hypocrisy? You are still implying that these evil things were done in part because a person is an Atheist.

Maybe that is what you want me to imply but it wasn't my intention because I believe different. Being a non-believer doesn't make anyone evil but it doesn't make them a saint either. I could point to the example of Bill and Melinda Gates. Look at how huge their philanthropic foundation is and the good it does worldwide. It was founded by both of them. Bill is an Agnostic and Melinda is a Roman Catholic. This is evidence that good can be done by believers and non-believers alike....which is what I believe.

There is no bearing on how moral people are based on if they believe in God or not. Morality comes from within. It's not a God dictated rule that only followers of Christ or other major religions can agree too. Which brings me to another theme I've promoted in this forum...


If you follow the 10 commandants are you moral or just a good rule follower?

If Jeffrey Dahmer had taken the commandment : "Thou shalt not kill" seriously people wouldn't have been murdered. Would it have mattered if he was moral or a good rule follower? Seems like both instances have a place.

 

[Siphorous]

Just as it is fair enough for those who have faith and are satisfied with what they believe.

Werd. I don't need to explain my faith to all and sundry but I don't look down on those that do. More power to them.

I do however take time to have private conversations to explain my faith. Anything i say in public doesn't even scratch the surface.

 

[doombug]

werd. I don't need to explain my faith to all and sundry but i don't look down on those that do. More power to them.

I do however take time to have private conversations to explain my faith. Anything i say in public doesn't even scratch the surface.

mmmmkay.....

 

[Minor Axis]

But if you are a true non-believer why would you feel the need to "hedge your bets"?

But God is capable of such things as you say then why hold Him to human mortal standards? To me this kind of thinking proves a human's inability to even begin to understand the concept of God.

Exactly right so don't bother pretending you understand God, the force that represents God, the assurance of it's intelligence, its "good" nature, intentions, interactions, and rules it has designated for the human race. I imagine you call yourself a believer, but do you even know of what specifically you believe in? I imagine a lot of it is based on how good it makes you feel.

I'm going to save you a lot of time from here on out. I'm Agnostic, not Atheist. I'm open to the possibility of God, but don't claim to know what God is, much less understand God's qualities. If you want to call God the force that created existence, I don't have a problem with that. Just don't tell me all about God's rules, expectations, and special feelings for the human race. This is something man conquered up as an attempt to make sense of his existence. In essence God is an unknown, abstract force at best.

You could be surprised to know I'm open, even hopeful of the possibility of a continuation of consciousness after physical death. Calling me a non-believer is a misnomer. You have to find something you can latch onto before you can believe or disbelieve. I'm clearly in the undecided category and happy with that status until something with enough substance comes along that I can intellectually grab hold of. Yes, on frequent occasions, I do get feelings of wonder, but I imagine the difference between you and me is that I search for the source of those feelings, while you know it's God's handy work.

And I am comfortable believing that God does not determine the outcome of football games. What's wrong with praying to God for victory on the football field? It's a delusional method of trying to understand the world in which we exist and the search for truth.

 

[doombug]

Exactly right so don't bother pretending you understand God, the force that represents God, the assurance of it's intelligence, its "good" nature, intentions, interactions, and rules it has designated for the human race.

Where have I pretended to understand any of this?
Although YOU say God is capable of micromanaging events.

I imagine you call yourself a believer, but do you even know of what specifically you believe in? I imagine a lot of it is based on how good it makes you feel.

You can only imagine many things.

I'm going to save you a lot of time from here on out. I'm Agnostic, not Atheist. I'm open to the possibility of God, but don't claim to know what God is, much less understand God's qualities. If you want to call God the force that created existence, I don't have a problem with that. Just don't tell me all about God's rules, expectations, and special feelings for the human race. This is something man conquered up as an attempt to make sense of his existence. In essence God is an unknown, abstract force at best.

Where did I tell you about God's rules specifically? I may have mentioned one or two but you act as though I have been preaching to you from the Holy Bible! I have only asked you questions for which you really have no answer and this bothers you.

You could be surprised to know I'm open, even hopeful of the possibility of a continuation of consciousness after physical death. Calling me a non-believer is a misnomer. You have to find something you can latch onto before you can believe or disbelieve. I'm clearly in the undecided category and happy with that status until something with enough substance comes along that I can intellectually grab hold of.

Maybe one could say you are putting your "faith" in science? Good luck.

Yes, on frequent occasions, I do get feelings of wonder, but I imagine the difference between you and me is that I search for the source of those feelings, while you know it's God's handy work.

How do you know if I search or not? Maybe my questions are nothing more that to try and understand where Agnostics and Atheists are coming from but you seem to be a neurotic bunch. Someone asks questions and you seem to immediately start bashing the bible and those who believe in it. If I were undecided myself I would have to say Christianity is looking pretty good right now. You guys are just too darned angry.

And I am comfortable believing that God does not determine the outcome of football games. What's wrong with praying to God for victory on the football field? It's a delusional method of trying to understand the world in which we exist and the search for truth.

So what? How does an athlete praying really affect you? I still don't understand why this offends you so.