What if there were alternatives to abortion?

[Accountable]

yes and no. I know no one with DS but my cousin is now I guess what you would call special needs due to a disease...and i do not want their lives for one second. My cousin doesn't even have a life. He can't talk, eat, walk...nothing. He just sits in a wheel chair all day or his bed watching tv. He's 15 years old and has to get his diaper changed....what kind of happy ending is that

I've worked with kids like that. Breaks your heart. Makes me wish I were psychic so I could try to have a conversation.

Just to complete the thought: kids like your cousin are rare and extreme. Most special needs kids grow up to live productive lives. They live on their own, go to work, hate the boss, date, fight, marry, fight, have makeup sex, have kids, feel exasperation & pride over the lives they've created..... pretty damn near normal.

 

[JanieDough]

I've worked with kids like that. Breaks your heart. Makes me wish I were psychic so I could try to have a conversation.

Just to complete the thought: kids like your cousin are rare and extreme. Most special needs kids grow up to live productive lives. They live on their own, go to work, hate the boss, date, fight, marry, fight, have makeup sex, have kids, feel exasperation & pride over the lives they've created..... pretty damn near normal.

:homo::nod::nod::nod:

that's why you need to know more about this before you judge.

 

[RedRyder]

Well, I hadn't expected to get into the weeds about this, but okay, I'll give it my best shot.

And why not? I try to be prepared when I start a thread about such a controversial topic. Oh wait... I haven't done that yet. :ninja

1. If you mean the transplant itself, I would expect the woman receiving the fetus.
If you mean the research, I'll leave that up to the research funding fairies.

I suppose I expected that answer for the receiving end. But I'm thinking along the lines of Health Insurance.... since it most likely will involve some sort of surgical element... and risk. Let's say insurance will never cover such a procedure (as it doesn't for selective abortion that I know of)..... and say during the procedure something goes wrong.... and other emergency measures are required involving bigger bucks than the average person has..... who is going to suck up that cost?

Wasn't thinking really about the research end of it yet. Apparently we're to assume it's already available. So I'll not go there.

2. In my perfect world, of course the transplant would be cheaper, safer, and less painful. Worst case would be that they would be exactly equal in every way.

Have you ever priced an abortion? I did a quick google and it shows $300 and up depending on how far along. Do you really think a transplant of this sort would be equal or cheaper? I doubt it. But then again, it doesn't exist, so who knows yet?

3. Wouldn't that be a horrible situation? Still, it's bound to happen. I'm sure it happened to adoptive parents. I wouldn't want to be Judge Solomon in such a situation.

Yes it would be. Especially after all the mechanics of getting the baby transplanted as it were.

4. Same as traditional adoptions, I'm sure.

But this time, they have to consider the total fitness and health of the selected mother. Another expense. And what if they are wrong. Of course, there's the mental and emotional state too. Mama-to-be Roulette I suppose.

 

[GuesSAngel]

Right but if you don't know these kids and you don't know these parents how can you have a good complete picture of their true quality of life?


Go look at this website and tell me you would abort these children:

DREAMS Foundation of Acadiana

And yes I would still abort. My cousin knew the quality of life he had, he was once able to walk and talk like a normal little boy, has been living with a disease since he was 7. Like anything else there is no black and white here. It's a decision that would be painful to make but since MLD may run in my family (which is what my cousin has) I would absolutely abort if my fetus had it. And test as early as possible. B/c MLD is a death sentence for your child a very slow and painful death sentence. It's a child trapped in a body where his bones disintegrate around him, even when you pick him up. So you would actually want to bring a child into this life knowing that with a couple years of life would end up with years dying in bed.

I've worked with kids like that. Breaks your heart. Makes me wish I were psychic so I could try to have a conversation.

Just to complete the thought: kids like your cousin are rare and extreme. Most special needs kids grow up to live productive lives. They live on their own, go to work, hate the boss, date, fight, marry, fight, have makeup sex, have kids, feel exasperation & pride over the lives they've created..... pretty damn near normal.

There is no productive life. It's very bold to say that most special need kids grow up to live that. What my cousin goes through is a rare disease and is extreme to someone like you and I. But it's not rare in the world. Take a visit to a children's hospital and then tell me how rare kids with disabilities are. And tell me what the doctors will say on their quality of life.

 

[Margene]

Why on earth not? Why should a woman's life have priority over a child's life, especially if a similar procedure takes place either way?

I know 2 for certain would be rape and down syndrome. Personally it's in my own opinion that men shouldn't have a say in abortion. What about the rights of the mother? I mean now that there's a fetus in her, she's now invisible?

It's b.s. keep you're opinions and laws off MY body

And yes I would still abort. My cousin knew the quality of life he had, he was once able to walk and talk like a normal little boy, has been living with a disease since he was 7. Like anything else there is no black and white here. It's a decision that would be painful to make but since MLD may run in my family (which is what my cousin has) I would absolutely abort if my fetus had it. And test as early as possible. B/c MLD is a death sentence for your child a very slow and painful death sentence. It's a child trapped in a body where his bones disintegrate around him, even when you pick him up. So you would actually want to bring a child into this life knowing that with a couple years of life would end up with years dying in bed.



There is no productive life. It's very bold to say that most special need kids grow up to live that. What my cousin goes through is a rare disease and is extreme to someone like you and I. But it's not rare in the world. Take a visit to a children's hospital and then tell me how rare kids with disabilities are. And tell me what the doctors will say on their quality of life.

Your posts have been excellent throughout the thread.

I do know families with kids who were born just as you have described. One boy, who was in the same daycare as my baby (who is not special needs) , owing to the fact the sitter had a special needs child herself so she opened her daycare to kids with disabilities, just lay there on the floor, day in and out. He had a feeding tube and was in diapers and would be all his life. His parents HAD to work to support his needs and then took turns staying up at night with him to make sure his trach tube didn't clog or in case his sleep monitor went off, which it did several times a night.

They did this because they didn't want him in a nursing home. They too, had no quality of lives themselves.

I have no idea how long he lived or what happened to their family. I just remember how sad it was for that little boy and his parents, tired, stressed out and ragged from working and caring for him.

The sitter's son was never going to be on his own either. He was not as bad as the boy I described, but what happens to him were his parents to pass on? Accidents happen all the time.

From that experience, I know I would choose abortion rather than bring a child into this world only to lay there like a vegetable. Or, to be at risk of strangers taking care of them because I died unexpectedly.

 

[GuesSAngel]

Your posts have been excellent throughout the thread.

I do know families with kids who were born just as you have described. One boy, who was in the same daycare as my baby (who is not special needs) , owing to the fact the sitter had a special needs child herself so she opened her daycare to kids with disabilities, just lay there on the floor, day in and out. He had a feeding tube and was in diapers and would be all his life. His parents HAD to work to support his needs and then took turns staying up at night with him to make sure his trach tube didn't clog or in case his sleep monitor went off, which it did several times a night.

They did this because they didn't want him in a nursing home. They too, had no quality of lives themselves.

I have no idea how long he lived or what happened to their family. I just remember how sad it was for that little boy and his parents, tired, stressed out and ragged from working and caring for him.

The sitter's son was never going to be on his own either. He was not as bad as the boy I described, but what happens to him were his parents to pass on? Accidents happen all the time.

From that experience, I know I would choose abortion rather than bring a child into this world only to lay there like a vegetable. Or, to be at risk of strangers taking care of them because I died unexpectedly.

glad to see that somebody gets the point

 

[Margene]

glad to see that somebody gets the point

Indeed I do get it. Having seen it up close and day after day, it left an impression. Especially after having a healthy child, I wouldn't want to bring forth a child who may end up being dependent on their siblings. It's not fair.

 

[anathelia]

My opinion has always been pretty anti-abortion except in the rare cases of rape and if carrying the baby to term would be detrimental to either the mother's health, the babies health, or both.

However, if there was an option to transplant the baby from one womb to another, I don't see the need for abortion. It's not our place to decide who does and does not have a right to live. No one's forcing the mother to carry the baby to term and "ruin" her body. No one's making her take care of something she didn't want. I just don't see where it's fair for us to make that decision.

 

[JanieDough]

And yes I would still abort. My cousin knew the quality of life he had, he was once able to walk and talk like a normal little boy, has been living with a disease since he was 7. Like anything else there is no black and white here. It's a decision that would be painful to make but since MLD may run in my family (which is what my cousin has) I would absolutely abort if my fetus had it. And test as early as possible. B/c MLD is a death sentence for your child a very slow and painful death sentence. It's a child trapped in a body where his bones disintegrate around him, even when you pick him up. So you would actually want to bring a child into this life knowing that with a couple years of life would end up with years dying in bed.



There is no productive life. It's very bold to say that most special need kids grow up to live that. What my cousin goes through is a rare disease and is extreme to someone like you and I. But it's not rare in the world. Take a visit to a children's hospital and then tell me how rare kids with disabilities are. And tell me what the doctors will say on their quality of life.

But what your cousin has is SO different from regular downs syndrome or autism or spina bifida. Did you even go look at the website?

None of those people regret having those children and none of those children wish to be dead.

 

[GuesSAngel]

But what your cousin has is SO different from regular downs syndrome or autism or spina bifida. Did you even go look at the website?

None of those people regret having those children and none of those children wish to be dead.

And that's exactly why I said it would be an extremely difficult decision to make and it's based on many factors. It's also a very personal choice...

Once you give birth to the child it's a very different discussion, then from when it's inside the womb.

Let me ask you a question, if you knew that you were going to get pregnant next month and you knew that the child was going to have a disease that would not allow the child to reach adolescence, would you avoid having sex on that date to avoid getting pregnant to avoid that child being born? Or would you go ahead have sex on that date knowing this is going to happen. And if you answered no, you are not going to have sex then you and i agree on not wanting to bring an ill-fated child into this world we just disagree on when it's okay to make that choice.

 

[JanieDough]

And if you answered no, you are not going to have sex then you and i agree on not wanting to bring an ill-fated child into this world we just disagree on when it's okay to make that choice.

that and i think we disagree about the definition of a child with special needs

i mean what about the kids that just have a form of autism

1 in 4 children have autism now.

and kids with downs are beginning to be higher functioning citizens (by that i mean we are learning how to help them assimilate into society) I mean it was only 20 years or so ago that we would institutionalize and put away every one who had some form of mental disability

now we teach these people and help them be a part of society




If I got pregnant and found out the child was going to be a pillow angel (similar to your cousin) I think I would still have the child knowing full well what was going to happen. Maybe that's cruel, but to me it's just the way things are supposed to be. But I would understand if some one else terminated that pregnancy.

But if the kid was only going to have down syndrome or autism or cerebal palsy or spina bifida - those are functioning children i don't think anyone should terminate. Those are kids that do have a quality of life and will grow up and be parents, or at least have a life.

 

[GuesSAngel]

that and i think we disagree about the definition of a child with special needs

i mean what about the kids that just have a form of autism

1 in 4 children have autism now.

and kids with downs are beginning to be higher functioning citizens (by that i mean we are learning how to help them assimilate into society) I mean it was only 20 years or so ago that we would institutionalize and put away every one who had some form of mental disability

now we teach these people and help them be a part of society




If I got pregnant and found out the child was going to be a pillow angel (similar to your cousin) I think I would still have the child knowing full well what was going to happen. Maybe that's cruel, but to me it's just the way things are supposed to be. But I would understand if some one else terminated that pregnancy.

But if the kid was only going to have down syndrome or autism or cerebal palsy or spina bifida - those are functioning children i don't think anyone should terminate. Those are kids that do have a quality of life and will grow up and be parents, or at least have a life.

no I understand what a child is with special needs. And it's still something that I would choose not to do, I still wouldn't want to bring a child into this world like that. And not every child with DS, autism, CB or SB is functioning.

 

[JanieDough]

no I understand what a child is with special needs. And it's still something that I would choose not to do, I still wouldn't want to bring a child into this world like that. And not every child with DS, autism, CB or SB is functioning.

But most are functioning!

That's what i think you don't see. You and Margene are talking about very severe cases of something that is NOT downs or autism or CB or SB.

You guys are generalizing over a very broad spectrum.

I work with kids that have these disabilities very severely and if you spend even an hour with them and their parents you know they would never regret having the kid.


But I respect your right to chose. I just think it's sad because these kids are functioning!

 

[GuesSAngel]

But most are functioning!

That's what i think you don't see. You and Margene are talking about very severe cases of something that is NOT downs or autism or CB or SB.

You guys are generalizing over a very broad spectrum.

I work with kids that have these disabilities very severely and if you spend even an hour with them and their parents you know they would never regret having the kid.


But I respect your right to chose. I just think it's sad because these kids are functioning!

I'm also talking about what you're talking about, all of the other disabilities. I believe maybe a small small percentage is functioning, and that's it. The majority that I see and the majority I hear about is not functioning. They wouldn't be able to live on their own like you and me

And why would any parent regret having their child lol

 

[JanieDough]

I'm also talking about what you're talking about, all of the other disabilities. I believe maybe a small small percentage is functioning, and that's it. The majority that I see and the majority I hear about is not functioning. They wouldn't be able to live on their own like you and me

And why would any parent regret having their child lol

but if you don't regret it later then why would you abort?

i said the kids don't regret it either....or did i? i meant to!

i don't know - i just see the kids I work with and I think it's a shame people don't think they are worth the life they were given by nature, god , chance - whatever you believe in.

 

[GuesSAngel]

you don't know a life you had until you had it. When I was without my husband and son, I didn't know what that life felt like...it was never introduced to me. Now that I have it I can't imagine my life without it.

Just like the boy in my belly now Of course I have that little bond with him...but if something should happen, I can't miss a life that I wouldn't have with him

I mean aren't you a mother? After making that choice of having your baby why would you regret having him or her. I'm saying I would make that decision long before hand of what do to before ever having the baby.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

This is somewhat similar to adoption, which is available now.

No it's not at all. Then a women has to give up 9 months of her life to pregnancy, possibly risk her life, and go through all the emotional problems of giving birth to and thusly losing a child.

I would be more okay with them making this required, but I still think abortion should be an option.

 

[JanieDough]

you don't know a life you had until you had it. When I was without my husband and son, I didn't know what that life felt like...it was never introduced to me. Now that I have it I can't imagine my life without it.

Just like the boy in my belly now Of course I have that little bond with him...but if something should happen, I can't miss a life that I wouldn't have with him

I mean aren't you a mother? After making that choice of having your baby why would you regret having him or her. I'm saying I would make that decision long before hand of what do to before ever having the baby.

I'm not a mother. but the bold point is my point exactly. you don't know the greatness they have in their life so how would you say they should abort their kids?

 

[Accountable]

No it's not at all. Then a women has to give up 9 months of her life to pregnancy, possibly risk her life, and go through all the emotional problems of giving birth to and thusly losing a child.

I would be more okay with them making this required, but I still think abortion should be an option.

No one would be forcing a woman to take a fetus into her womb. It would be voluntary. That's how it is similar to adoption.

 

[Kyle B]

No one would be forcing a woman to take a fetus into her womb. It would be voluntary. That's how it is similar to adoption.

Yes, I should have rephrased that better. Biologically, the process is nothing like adoption. However, the concept is similar, accepting somebody's baby.