Watching the Republican debate...

[Minor Axis]

Here's another person who apparently thinks that if the federal gov't doesn't do it then it doesn't get done.

What makes you think it will get done? States don't have any money.

I'm curious, how many here want clean water & air, uncontaminated food, consumer protection, and a basic level of protection from discrimination? And how many here think that it is more efficient if 50 states establish the same bureaucracies as 1 national bureaucracy? Show of hands please.

 

[retro]

What makes you think it will get done? States don't have any money.

I'm curious, how many here want clean water & air, uncontaminated food, consumer protection, and a basic level of protection from discrimination? And how many here think that it is more efficient if 50 states establish the same bureaucracies as 1 national bureaucracy? Show of hands please.

http://www.offtopicz.net/showthread...an-debate...&p=1995011&viewfull=1#post1995011

 

[Minor Axis]

http://www.offtopicz.net/showthread...an-debate...&p=1995011&viewfull=1#post1995011

Hey look at that... Canada's version of the FAA is a private non-share corporation run by a board of directors. I don't see planes falling from the sky in Canada... do you? It was spun off from federal control in 1996, and seems to be working relatively well. Why don't we ask our Canadian members about air traffic in their country? You're always touting Canada's health care system... do you not like their ATC system? Why couldn't the same thing be done with the FDA?

The Canadian equivalent of the FAA, is it for profit? If so, that is not a good move imo. If the FAA was privatized, would the CEO demand $10M per year? You can see where I'm going. The organization would still have to answer to the US Government.

Now what about the Post Office? I thought it was semi-private. However this article does not really make that clear. The question is with the way greed is going in corporate America do we really want to be privatizing government agencies? BTW, the following quote says it is authorized by the Constitution and I thought you Constitutional guys were in love with the Constitution just as it is?

(a) The United States Postal Service shall be operated as a basic and fundamental service provided to the people by the Government of the United States, authorized by the Constitution, created by Act of Congress, and supported by the people. The Postal Service shall have as its basic function the obligation to provide postal services to bind the Nation together through the personal, educational, literary, and business correspondence of the people. It shall provide prompt, reliable, and efficient services to patrons in all areas and shall render postal services to all communities. The costs of establishing and maintaining the Postal Service shall not be apportioned to impair the overall value of such service to the people.

 

[Accountable]

Ron Paul specifically said that he would eliminate the FAA and the FDA when asked. When questioned about who would keep our drugs safe, he said the free market.
I'm sorry, but that's not even in the realm of sanity.

The FAA and FDA are two regulating agencies, not all. You clearly implied EVERY. In fact, that's the word you typed, followed with "fucking" for emphasis.

Here, let me help you. In his book Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our FreedomMr Paul did indeed say the federal government shouldn't be in the business of regulating business. I've already returned the book to the library so I can't give you a direct quote.

Let's just use the FDA as an example.
If the FDA were to go away tomorrow and it was up to the states to oversee safe drugs and food, that sounds good and all, but here are the problems with that.

If Ron Paul were to win the presidency and Congress were packed with his clones, the FDA would not go away tomorrow. You can't explain why something won't work by starting with an unrealistic and unreasonable premise.

Each state would have differing regulations and requirements. Drug company "A" would need to follow different guidelines depending on what states they were going to sell their product. States might lower their threshold of safety to attract cheaper drugs while others might have tighter controls. It would be a huge cluster fuck. What happens when drugs cross state lines? Where a drug might be completely legal in PA it might not be in NJ because of different safety rules. How would you address drugs that come into the country?
How do you ensure the safety of the American public by trying to have 50 different sets of rules and regulations when we live in a global economy and nothing is made locally anymore? It doesn't make any sense...

And I haven't even touched on food safety... What does a meat packer do to ensure that he can transport his meat across the country???

Instead of trying to abolish federal programs that make sense, why don't we give them all a long over due overhaul and fix the problems they have?

Assuming you're sitting at a computer plugged into a wall, look at the bottom of the power strip or your laptop power pack. See that UL listing? Ever wonder why electrical cords and other equipment are dependable? It's not because of federal regulations. Underwriters Laboratories is a completely independent of any government. Here's a neat bit from their faq's:

Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States.

Are doctors federally regulated? Do they have to pass a government exam to earn their title? Indeed they do not. The American Medical Association is a private organization that accredits medical schools.

How about Lawyers? Nope. The American Bar Association is "the largest voluntary professional association in the world. With nearly 400,000 members, the ABA provides law school accreditation, continuing legal education, information about the law, programs to assist lawyers and judges in their work, and initiatives to improve the legal system for the public." Completely free of any federal mandates, and yet they function. Imagine that.

There's no reason to believe that other industries can police themselves just as these three examples do, and have done for a hundred years. It is, after all, in their own best interest to do so. The federal gov't sucks at it. It only builds a false sense of safety which promotes unwise behavior, such as eating spinach without washing it first.

 

[Accountable]

What makes you think it will get done? States don't have any money.

They would if the Washington didn't steal so much of it only to redistribute it right back to the states. But again, it's a myth that if the gov't doesn't do it it doesn't get done.

 

[Minor Axis]

But again, it's a myth that if the gov't doesn't do it it doesn't get done.

But again, it's your opinion. Why do you think it would be more efficient/better to have the equivalent of 50 FDAs, 50 EPAs, 50 of every government agency, across the country instead of 1 at a national level?

 

[Accountable]

But again, it's a myth that if the gov't doesn't do it it doesn't get done.

But again, it's your opinion. Why do you think it would be more efficient/better to have the equivalent of 50 FDAs, 50 EPAs, 50 of every government agency, across the country instead of 1 at a national level?

Not opinion, fact, as I pointed out 3 very strong examples. Those examples were not of government agencies, nor were there 50 of each. They were national (and international, in one instance) private, voluntary, self-regulation requiring nothing of any government.

 

[Minor Axis]

Not opinion, fact, as I pointed out 3 very strong examples. Those examples were not of government agencies, nor were there 50 of each. They were national (and international, in one instance) private, voluntary, self-regulation requiring nothing of any government.

And you examples prove that government agencies should be disbanded? Who funds the American Bar Association and the AMA btw?

-----------------------------------------------------
not directed at Accountable...

Perry Squashed Texas Execution Investigation Ex Official Says. Very interesting after executions were cheered at the Republician debate.

 

[Accountable]

And you examples prove that government agencies should be disbanded? Who funds the American Bar Association and the AMA btw?

Their members. Although I find that the AMA receives some gov't subsidies (which I disagree with) just try to find a national organization that doesn't. http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/about-ama/2010-annual-report.pdf
What is your point? That they don't police themselves properly because they aren't government agencies?

As for disbanded, yes, of course any unnecessary government agency should be disbanded, and most are unnecessary. Can you name a government regulatory agency that is as trusted for ensuring quality in their appointed industry as the three private ones I've pointed out? Transportation, perhaps? Finance? Education? Hell, even our touted military is a cesspool of waste and incompetence.

Perry Squashed Texas Execution Investigation Ex Official Says. Very interesting after executions were cheered at the Republician debate.

I don't understand. Are you agreeing with me??

 

[Minor Axis]

Their members. Although I find that the AMA receives some gov't subsidies (which I disagree with) just try to find a national organization that doesn't. http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/about-ama/2010-annual-report.pdf
What is your point? That they don't police themselves properly because they aren't government agencies?

As for disbanded, yes, of course any unnecessary government agency should be disbanded, and most are unnecessary. Can you name a government regulatory agency that is as trusted for ensuring quality in their appointed industry as the three private ones I've pointed out? Transportation, perhaps? Finance? Education? Hell, even our touted military is a cesspool of waste and incompetence.

Acc, first of all you are making a case that that organizations like you quoted could take over a government function, like this is your solution and your rationalization for dismembering the National government. Secondly you are assuming that if you give such organizations the responsibilities of the FDA for example, that it won't cost nearly as much what it costs the government to handle the same responsibility. A bureaucracy is a bureaucracy, whether if it staffed by the government or a volunteer organization. (You really think a volunteer agency could do the FDA's job?) Only the management of the bureaucracy is important. You've got this fixation in your noggin, that all will be well as long as anyone other than the Federal Government is handling it. Finally, you may not be saying it today, but your typical argument is not to allow the Federal government to handle such responsibilities, but allow the States, all 50 of them develop their own individual programs which makes no sense from an efficiency standpoint.

I don't understand. Are you agreeing with me??

Just added that link into a thread about the Republican debate.

 

[Accountable]

Acc, first of all you are making a case that that organizations like you quoted could take over a government function,

Thank you. I think it's a pretty strong case.

like this is your solution and your rationalization for dismembering the National government.

Hmmm.... interesting verb there. "Dismember"..... as in chop off the intrusive tentacles that are over-reaching into areas it was never meant to be and squeezing the life out of our liberty. I like it! :nod::thumbup

Secondly you are assuming that if you give such organizations the responsibilities of the FDA for example, that it won't cost nearly as much what it costs the government to handle the same responsibility. A bureaucracy is a bureaucracy, whether if it staffed by the government or a volunteer organization.

Ah, but a bureaucracy with limited funds would have to learn to do things smarter and more efficiently. Federal bureaucracies are incentivized to spend every dime allocated to them whether they need it or not, then find ways to justify more. I know. I've
worked in them.

(You really think a volunteer agency could do the FDA's job?)

Oh yes! Absolutely with a cherry on top. Government inspectors have no real reason to do their jobs well. Their union position is secure whether they do their duty or not. It is in a business' self-interest to keep up a good reputation. If they can point to high ratings from a government bureaucracy (that rarely even sends inspectors) their reputation is safe despite the occasional food poison outbreak. However, a private inspection company, equally paid by all competitors to ensure fairness, has all the incentive in the world to be thorough yet fair. Their own reputation is on the line, and if they pass a company that subsequently lets loose a bout of salmonella, the inspector's reputation is in the toilet as much (or maybe even more) than the offending company. This is far and away a more reliable system.

Only the management of the bureaucracy is important. You've got this fixation in your noggin, that all will be well as long as anyone other than the Federal Government is handling it.

Read my Signature.

Finally, you may not be saying it today, but your typical argument is not to allow the Federal government to handle such responsibilities, but allow the States, all 50 of them develop their own individual programs which makes no sense from an efficiency standpoint.

First, you are absolutely right when it comes to domestic issues that cannot be handled by anyone but a government agency. Second, Liberty is WAAAYYY more important than efficiency. Liberty is messy sometimes. Inefficient. I'm okay with that.

Just added that link into a thread about the Republican debate.

Oh. Okay.

Federal motor vehicle safety regs are redundant, too. The http://www.iihs.org/ has tougher standards and is more respected. There's a few billion we could divert to the debt.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Using your logic Accountable, couldn't a private sector school teacher do your job better at half what you make as a government employee?

 

[Accountable]

Using your logic Accountable, couldn't a private sector school teacher do your job better at half what you make as a government employee?

I'm no economist, so I can't comment on the fraction, but it's certainly possible. You don't agree?

I can't see how our education system could help but improve if a privately-funded agency were allowed to come in to track student learning and progress, rating individual teacher effectiveness, school efficiency, you name it.

 

[Minor Axis]

Thank you.

Your welcome and I completely disagree with your views on this subject. There is nothing more I care to say until, oh maybe tomorrow. :horse

 

[Kyle B]

I'm no economist, so I can't comment on the fraction, but it's certainly possible. You don't agree?

I can't see how our education system could help but improve if a privately-funded agency were allowed to come in to track student learning and progress, rating individual teacher effectiveness, school efficiency, you name it.

Just curious, as a teacher, would you support the complete privatization of education?

 

[Minor Axis]

Just curious, as a teacher, would you support the complete privatization of education?

Today you have teacher unions fighting to hold onto their wages. And I imagine if they managed to get rid of the union and privatize education, then you'd have a for-profit organization trying to hanging on to it's profits, telling teachers, we need to cut your pay. I am against the privatization of public services such as fire, police, education, even medical. In our history I believe home owners had to pay (the fire department) to keep a fire emblem (can't remember the proper name for it) on their house. We saw them in Charleston, but they were displayed as historical artifacts. However I don't know at that point, if the fire department was a for-profit venture, or instead of taxes, they were just collecting income to continue operating.

 

[Alien Allen]

I live in a city that has one of if not the largest volunteer FD in the country. They got all the bells and whistles that make Detroit look like the FD version of the Keystone Cops. There are less than 15 that are on salary. The rest which is a few hundred are all volunteer. They get paid nothing beyond getting a retirement benefit based on time served. In order to stay qualified they have meet so many hours a month which they do with training once a week. It works very well. Am proud to say my son is an LT. This is an example where it can be done cheaper.

 

[Minor Axis]

I live in a city that has one of if not the largest volunteer FD in the country. They got all the bells and whistles that make Detroit look like the FD version of the Keystone Cops. There are less than 15 that are on salary. The rest which is a few hundred are all volunteer. They get paid nothing beyond getting a retirement benefit based on time served. In order to stay qualified they have meet so many hours a month which they do with training once a week. It works very well. Am proud to say my son is an LT. This is an example where it can be done cheaper.

I was a volunteer fireman for a couple of years. Had a great time. However the volunteer fire department requires volunteers, and I believe this function is reinforced by a healthy economic system where citizens are secure enough in their lives, where they can afford to volunteer their time. Keep in mind that where I grew up, the volunteer fire department was a GOVERNMENT entity.

 

[retro]

Today you have teacher unions fighting to hold onto their wages. And I imagine if they managed to get rid of the union and privatize education, then you'd have a for-profit organization trying to hanging on to it's profits, telling teachers, we need to cut your pay. I am against the privatization of public services such as fire, police, education, even medical. In our history I believe home owners had to pay (the fire department) to keep a fire emblem (can't remember the proper name for it) on their house. We saw them in Charleston, but they were displayed as historical artifacts. However I don't know at that point, if the fire department was a for-profit venture, or instead of taxes, they were just collecting income to continue operating.

Your argument is predicated on a false dichotomy... you've assumed that privatization will result in a for profit replacement. You've completely dismissed the concept of a non-profit or not for profit replacement.

 

[retro]

Today you have teacher unions fighting to hold onto their wages. And I imagine if they managed to get rid of the union and privatize education, then you'd have a for-profit organization trying to hanging on to it's profits, telling teachers, we need to cut your pay. I am against the privatization of public services such as fire, police, education, even medical. In our history I believe home owners had to pay (the fire department) to keep a fire emblem (can't remember the proper name for it) on their house. We saw them in Charleston, but they were displayed as historical artifacts. However I don't know at that point, if the fire department was a for-profit venture, or instead of taxes, they were just collecting income to continue operating.

Your argument is based on a false dichotomy... you've assumed that privatization will result in a for profit replacement. You've completely dismissed the concept of a non-profit or not for profit replacement.