UAW workers paid $75 an hour!!!

Users who are viewing this thread

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
You wonder why the big three automakers are bankrupt?

For UAW, Aid Likely to Come With Strings - WSJ.com

Because the UAW has extorted $75 an hour from the automakers for their employees--almost double what auto-workers outside the US have to pay their employees.

Not sure how anyone but a union employee could justify this and that's only because they are on the same Gravy Train. This is not money rightfully earned or bargained for, its money extorted because unions are given unfair bargaining power by Congress. The reality is the only way to save the auto companies is to allow them to go bankrupt so these contracts can be invalidated, which they should be as they are disgusting examples of what can be obtained by exerting undue influence on politicians.

Imagine $75 an hour for putting parts on an assembly line! :rolleyes
 
  • 120
    Replies
  • 2K
    Views
  • 0
    Participant count
    Participants list

SgtSpike

Active Member
Messages
807
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Can someone explain what powers unions have? All I know of is that they can conduct organized strikes, but I didn't know they actually had power via congress. What power is that?

And yeah, I completely agree that $75 is ridiculous. Well, not just ridiculous, but absurd. Insanity. Stupidity. I could go on. There's no way those jobs are worth that much... they should be paid $20/hr at the MAX. Heck, top production line employees at my company only make $12 or $13/hr!
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.02z
You wonder why the big three automakers are bankrupt?

It's impossible for you to avoid misrepresenting one of your pet peeve issues... There are no UAW workers making $75 per hour wage.

Media Matters

Further, neither Larson nor Cunningham noted that the "Big Three" negotiated with the UAW in 2007 to significantly reduce the salary and benefits packages for certain new employees, cost reductions not reflected in the $73-per-hour and $75-per-hour figures. Bloomberg News reported in October 2007 that "[o]ver the life of the new accord [with GM], hourly base wages will start at $14 and rise to $15.30 for new hires such as forklift drivers and others not directly involved in making vehicles or parts. That compares with $28.12 for current employees, whose pay won't be cut." The negotiations also "create[d] a fund run by the union that will be responsible for 73 percent of GM's $64 billion in liability for retiree medical care."
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
It's impossible for you to avoid misrepresenting one of your pet peeve issues... There are no UAW workers making $75 per hour wage.

Media Matters

Further, neither Larson nor Cunningham noted that the "Big Three" negotiated with the UAW in 2007 to significantly reduce the salary and benefits packages for certain new employees, cost reductions not reflected in the $73-per-hour and $75-per-hour figures. Bloomberg News reported in October 2007 that "[o]ver the life of the new accord [with GM], hourly base wages will start at $14 and rise to $15.30 for new hires such as forklift drivers and others not directly involved in making vehicles or parts. That compares with $28.12 for current employees, whose pay won't be cut." The negotiations also "create[d] a fund run by the union that will be responsible for 73 percent of GM's $64 billion in liability for retiree medical care."


That's for new employees under the new contract. The average by your own source is $73 to $75 an hour--and that's a fucking average for Godsakes. So there are employees making less and making more--but as stated, none of them are worth anywhere close to that.

This is not a pet peave of mine, its a recognition of economics, which I've explained to you before but which falls on deaf ears because you are the benefactor of the extortion. Its an economic impossiblity to raise wages above the prevailing market rates. What happens is that there is a balancing of cost by loss of income/benefits by other non-union employees and/or a loss of jobs. The sad truth is that other employees and society as a whole pays for this extortion. That's why its so hypocritical for you to talk about exectuve compensation because whatever it is, its freely bargained for an is controlled by market forces. Unions are economic communism. That's simply a statement of fact that virtually any economist will tell you (except those hired or paid by unions).
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Can someone explain what powers unions have? All I know of is that they can conduct organized strikes, but I didn't know they actually had power via congress. What power is that?

Because they have the right to strike (imagine if you could tell you boss you are not coming to work until he gives you a raise! :rolleyes) and its damn near impossible to fire them (among other things but that's the major rights given by Congress). That's what allows them to extort higher wages--they have the employer by the proverbial balls. In a free economic system parties bargain based on relative economic strengths. However, unions are not subject to the same rules as everyone else operating in a free economy--they are given the right to say "fuck off" to their employer without any meaningful repercussions.

BTW--contrary to Minor's contentions, I have no problem whatsoever with unions or organized labor provided they bargain on equal footing with the rest of the work force. That is---if they choose to strike, they can be permanently replaced and the employer can choose not to rehire them.
 

trekguy

New Member
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
You wonder why the big three automakers are bankrupt?

For UAW, Aid Likely to Come With Strings - WSJ.com

Because the UAW has extorted $75 an hour from the automakers for their employees--almost double what auto-workers outside the US have to pay their employees.

Not sure how anyone but a union employee could justify this and that's only because they are on the same Gravy Train. This is not money rightfully earned or bargained for, its money extorted because unions are given unfair bargaining power by Congress. The reality is the only way to save the auto companies is to allow them to go bankrupt so these contracts can be invalidated, which they should be as they are disgusting examples of what can be obtained by exerting undue influence on politicians.

Imagine $75 an hour for putting parts on an assembly line! :rolleyes

I agree with you. :eek



:puke:



:D
 

SgtSpike

Active Member
Messages
807
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Because they have the right to strike (imagine if you could tell you boss you are not coming to work until he gives you a raise! :rolleyes) and its damn near impossible to fire them (among other things but that's the major rights given by Congress). That's what allows them to extort higher wages--they have the employer by the proverbial balls. In a free economic system parties bargain based on relative economic strengths. However, unions are not subject to the same rules as everyone else operating in a free economy--they are given the right to say "fuck off" to their employer without any meaningful repercussions.

BTW--contrary to Minor's contentions, I have no problem whatsoever with unions or organized labor provided they bargain on equal footing with the rest of the work force. That is---if they choose to strike, they can be permanently replaced and the employer can choose not to rehire them.
So they can refuse to work and not be fired? Seriously? That's like... absurdity. Why do we allow unions to exist???
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
$75 an hour! That's absurd! Maybe we can sue someone over this! Now all we have to do is find a lawyer that's willing to work for less than the $400 an hour they charge for pushing paper. :smiley24:
 

Strauss

Active Member
Messages
718
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Can someone explain what powers unions have? All I know of is that they can conduct organized strikes, but I didn't know they actually had power via congress. What power is that?

Because the largest contributors to political parties (actually pretty much just one party-Democrat) and to political campaigns is unions.

I'll let Mulder post the link to the facts and statistics. ;)
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
$400 an hour? I couldn't afford the pay cut.

Exactly my point. If there is a market for it, people will pay. It's funny that the big three can pay all their workers $75/hr and cover their medical/benefits (which is government funded for Japanese auto makers) and yet sell a car for the same price as the foreign manufacturers. How is that economically possible?

And tell me Mulder, where does all this money go that these workers get? Doesn't it go right back into the economy? What would happen if we took millions of workers and cut their pay by 75%? What kind of effect would that have on the economy? Will the price of domestic autos be cut by 75% or even half? Or will the money just be shifted to the management?

And I'm still waiting to see how much of the price of a car is union labor and how much is management pay/compensation. Got those numbers Mulder?
 

SgtSpike

Active Member
Messages
807
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
This is an interesting tidbit of information I found on wikipedia... though there's no citations, so it could be untrue.

In the United States, under Federal labor law, an employer may only hire temporary replacements during a lockout. In a strike, unless it is an unfair labor practice (ULP) strike, an employer may legally hire permanent replacements. Also, in many U.S. states, employees who are locked-out are eligible to receive unemployment benefits, but are not eligible for such benefits during a strike.[citation needed]
For the above reasons, many American employers have historically been reluctant to impose lockouts, instead attempting to provoke a strike. However, as American unions have increasingly begun to resort to slowdowns rather than strikes, lockouts have come "back in fashion" for many employers, and even as incident of strikes are on the decline, incidents of lockouts are on the rise in the U.S.[citation needed]

So why don't the Big 3 just hire non-unionized workers?
 

SgtSpike

Active Member
Messages
807
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Exactly my point. If there is a market for it, people will pay. It's funny that the big three can pay all their workers $75/hr and cover their medical/benefits (which is government funded for Japanese auto makers) and yet sell a car for the same price as the foreign manufacturers. How is that economically possible?

And tell me Mulder, where does all this money go that these workers get? Doesn't it go right back into the economy? What would happen if we took millions of workers and cut their pay by 75%? What kind of effect would that have on the economy? Will the price of domestic autos be cut by 75% or even half? Or will the money just be shifted to the management?

And I'm still waiting to see how much of the price of a car is union labor and how much is management pay/compensation. Got those numbers Mulder?
So you're saying that unions are just another part of the free market? :24:

From what I've gathered thus far, the Big 3 don't have any choice but to hire unionized workers. I'm not sure why that is, but I would imagine there are plenty of people who would do a dang good job on an assembly line willing to work for $20/hr, and for some reason, Ford can't hire them...

Also, the whole point of why we are talking about this is because it's NOT economically feasible for these companies to continue paying workers $75/hr while competing with foreign companies. That's why they're going under. ;)

And the economic principle is laughable - you can't justify taking extra money from a company just because it will be put back into the economy. Well, unless you're a socialist. :D
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
If it is the unions that are bringing down the big three right now, then why did Ford show a 30% drop in sales and Toyota showed a 34% in October? It looks to me like it's the economy that's breaking the auto makers back right now, not the workers.

So does anyone have the figures yet on what percentage of a new cars price is managements pay/compensation? Or do you conservatives only look at how much the line worker is getting paid?
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Exactly my point. If there is a market for it, people will pay. It's funny that the big three can pay all their workers $75/hr and cover their medical/benefits (which is government funded for Japanese auto makers) and yet sell a car for the same price as the foreign manufacturers. How is that economically possible?

The market would never pay $75 an hour for an auto worker--that's the point--there is no market for $75 an hour unskilled workers.

And tell me Mulder, where does all this money go that these workers get? Doesn't it go right back into the economy?

By that reasoning we should raise the MW to $75 an hour because it would all go back into our economy. The problem is we compete in a global market so if the cost of labor is too high, no one buys our products or services. And that's not even considering the inflationary effect of higher wages, which does not yield any real purchasing power.

What would happen if we took millions of workers and cut their pay by 75%? What kind of effect would that have on the economy? Will the price of domestic autos be cut by 75% or even half? Or will the money just be shifted to the management?

The effect on the economy of eliminating union (all unions) not just auto would be tremendous--we would have an influx of literally millions of jobs.

And I'm still waiting to see how much of the price of a car is union labor and how much is management pay/compensation. Got those numbers Mulder?

What difference does that make? Management employees are bargained for on a free market--you don't pay them enough, they move to another job/industry. All companies have the same issue--its a level playing field. With the union workers, they are being paid far more than what the market would pay them.

Why don't you consider this and see if it "adds up" for you:

He explained that in 2006, widely available industry and Labor Department statistics placed the average labor cost for UAW-represented workers at the former DaimlerChrysler at $75.86 per hour. For Ford it was $70.51, he said, and for General Motors it was $73.26.

. . .

For U.S. workers at Toyota, however, the per hour labor cost is around $47.60, around $43 for Honda and around $42 for Nissan, Perry added, for an average of around $44.

“So we’re looking at somewhere around a $29 per hour pay gap between the Big Three and the foreign transplants that are producing cars in the United States,” Perry, chairman of the economics department, told CNSNews.com.

The average union worker at Chrysler, meanwhile, received 150 percent more in compensation than U.S. workers generally.

“Using Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers, the average compensation for manufacturing workers is around $31.50, and the average hourly compensation, including benefits, for the average worker in the U.S. economy is around $28.50,” Perry told CNSNews.com.

If you annualize Chrysler’s labor cost of $75.86 an hour per worker over a 35-hour week, for 50-weeks a year, the yearly compensation comes in at almost $133,000 per worker per year.

Seriously, I am at an utter loss to figure out why you are defending this. Just about everyone except Minor and you can see the gross disparity and unfairness of this and it doesn't take an economic genius to figure out that with the big 3 paying $29 per hour more for union labor that they are not going to be competetive.
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
So does anyone have the figures yet on what percentage of a new cars price is managements pay/compensation? Or do you conservatives only look at how much the line worker is getting paid?

You just don't get it do you? :confused You're argument is irrelevant--totally irrelevant to the issues. Management pay/compensation is controlled by market forces so all companies are in the same boat. The foreign auto plants here in the US have to pay their engineers and accountants and managers the same money that Ford and Chrysler do. That's a constant that doesn't effect the competetiveness of a particular product. The fact that Ford/Chrysler has to pay their union stiffs an extra $30 an hour is going to cause a significant comepetetive disadvantage. If you cant' understand that you need to take a fucking economics class.
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
So you're saying that unions are just another part of the free market? :24:

From what I've gathered thus far, the Big 3 don't have any choice but to hire unionized workers. I'm not sure why that is, but I would imagine there are plenty of people who would do a dang good job on an assembly line willing to work for $20/hr, and for some reason, Ford can't hire them...

Also, the whole point of why we are talking about this is because it's NOT economically feasible for these companies to continue paying workers $75/hr while competing with foreign companies. That's why they're going under. ;)

And the economic principle is laughable - you can't justify taking extra money from a company just because it will be put back into the economy. Well, unless you're a socialist. :D

How old are you? Because its astonishing to me that you understand basic economic principles while there are adults here that have no clue. You won't convince Tim or Minor to consider the economics because that doesn't sqaure with their political ideology--in their world 2+2=5 because their ideology is better served by erroneous math.
 

Fox Mulder

Active Member
Messages
2,689
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Here's your economics, Tim! And this is from 2006--long before the current financial crisis. Consider this-from the Mises Institute (an Economics thinktank)

Where Would General Motors Be Without the United Automobile Workers Union?
Daily Article by George Reisman | Posted on 4/19/2006

This is a question that no one seems to be asking. And so I've asked it. And here, in essence, is what I think is the answer. (The answer, of course, applies to Ford and Chrysler, as well as to General Motors. I've singled out General Motors because it's still the largest of the three and its problems are the most pronounced.)

First, the company would be without so-called Monday-morning automobiles. That is, automobiles poorly made for no other reason than because they happened to be made on a day when too few workers showed up, or too few showed up sober, to do the jobs they were paid to do. Without the UAW, General Motors would simply have fired such workers and replaced them with ones who would do the jobs they were paid to do. And so, without the UAW, GM would have produced more reliable, higher quality cars, had a better reputation for quality, and correspondingly greater sales volume to go with it. Why didn't they do this? Because with the UAW, such action by GM would merely have provoked work stoppages and strikes, with no prospect that the UAW would be displaced or that anything would be better after the strikes. Federal Law, specifically, The National Labor Relations Act of 1935, long ago made it illegal for companies simply to get rid of unions.

Second, without the UAW, GM would have been free to produce in the most-efficient, lowest cost way and to introduce improvements in efficiency as rapidly as possible. Sometimes this would have meant simply having one or two workers on the spot do a variety of simple jobs that needed doing, without having to call in half a dozen different workers each belonging to a different union job classification and having to pay that much more to get the job done. At other times, it would have meant just going ahead and introducing an advance, such as the use of robots, without protracted negotiations with the UAW resulting in the need to create phony jobs for workers to do (and to be paid for doing) that were simply not necessary.

(Unbelievably, at its assembly plant in Oklahoma City, GM is actually obliged by its UAW contract to pay 2,300 workers full salary and benefits for doing absolutely nothing. As The New York Times describes it, "Each day, workers report for duty at the plant and pass their time reading, watching television, playing dominoes or chatting. Since G.M. shut down production there last month, these workers have entered the Jobs Bank, industry's best form of job insurance. It pays idled workers a full salary and benefits even when there is no work for them to do.")

Third, without the UAW, GM would have an average unit cost per automobile close to that of non-union Toyota. Toyota makes a profit of about $2,000 per vehicle, while GM suffers a loss of about $1,200 per vehicle, a difference of $3,200 per unit. And the far greater part of that difference is the result of nothing but GM's being forced to deal with the UAW. (Over a year ago, The Cincinnati Enquirer reported that "the United Auto Workers contract costs GM $2,500 for each car sold.")

Fourth, without the UAW, the cost of employing a GM factory worker, including wages and fringes, would not be in excess of $72 per hour, which is where it is today, according to The Post-Crescent newspaper of Appleton, Wisconsin.

Fifth, as a result of UAW coercion and extortion, GM has lost billions upon billions of dollars. For 2005 alone, it reported a loss in excess of $10 billion. Its bonds are now rated as "junk," that is, below, investment grade. Without the UAW, GM would not have lost these billions.

Sixth, without the UAW, GM would not now be in process of attempting to pay a ransom to its UAW workers of up to $140,000 per man, just to get them to quit and take their hands out of its pockets. (It believes that $140,000 is less than what they will steal if they remain.)

Seventh, without the UAW, GM would not now have healthcare obligations that account for more than $1,600 of the cost of every vehicle it produces.

Eighth, without the UAW, GM would not now have pension obligations which, if entered on its balance sheet in accordance with the rule now being proposed by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, will leave it with a net worth of minus $16 billion.

What the UAW has done, on the foundation of coercive, interventionist labor legislation, is bring a once-great company to its knees. It has done this by a process of forcing one obligation after another upon the company, while at the same time, through its work rules, featherbedding practices, hostility to labor-saving advances, and outlandish pay scales, doing practically everything in its power to make it impossible for the company to meet those obligations.

Ninth, without the UAW tens of thousands of workers — its own members — would not now be faced with the loss of pension and healthcare benefits that it is impossible for GM or any of the other auto companies to provide, and never was possible for them to provide. The UAW, the whole labor-union movement, and the left-"liberal" intellectual establishment, which is their father and mother, are responsible for foisting on the public and on the average working man and woman a fantasy land of imaginary Demons (big business and the rich) and of saintly Good Fairies (politicians, government officials, and union leaders). In this fantasy-land, the Good Fairies supposedly have the power to wring unlimited free benefits from the Demons.

Tenth, Without the UAW and its fantasy-land mentality, autoworkers would have been motivated to save out of wages actually paid to them, and to provide for their future by means of by and large reasonable investments of those savings — investments with some measure of diversification. Instead, like small children, lured by the prospect of free candy from a stranger, they have been led to a very bad end. They thought they would receive endless free golden eggs from a goose they were doing everything possible to maim and finally kill, and now they're about to learn that the eggs just aren't there.

It's very sad to watch an innocent human being suffer. It's dreadful to contemplate anyone's life being ruined. It's dreadful to contemplate even an imbecile's falling off a cliff or down a well. But the union members, their union leaders, the politicians who catered to them, the journalists, the writers, and the professors who provided the intellectual and cultural environment in which this calamity could take place — none of them were imbeciles. They all could have and should have known better.

. . .

Perhaps the American people do not rise up because they have never seen General Motors, or any other major American business, rise up and dare to assert the philosophical principle of private property rights and individual freedom and proceed to pull the leeches off in the name of that principle.
It is easy to say, and also largely true, that General Motors and American business in general have not behaved in this way for several generations because they no longer have any principles. Indeed, they would project contempt at the very thought of acting on any kind of moral or political principle.

. . .

Any business firm today that tried to make a principled stand on such a matter as throwing out a legally recognized labor union would have to do so in the knowledge that its action was a futile gesture that would serve only to cost it dearly. And a corporation that did this would undoubtedly also be embroiled in endless lawsuits by many of its stockholders blaming it for the losses the government imposed on it.
But none of this should stop anyone else from speaking up and making known his outrage at what the UAW has done to General Motors.

And this didn't only happen in the auto industry. the Airline Industry is another one brought to its knees by unions--many having gone out of business. And the government unions are even worse because government don't go out of business-they just raise taxes and all of us are paying dearly for this!!!
 
78,875Threads
2,185,392Messages
4,959Members
Back
Top