U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis

[Homer]

your only fooling yourself , just keep going down the road your on and you'll find out.

 

[All Else Failed]

No, you just ran out of words to put in my mouth.

 

[Tim]

Guys, back on topic...

 

[All Else Failed]

Sorry.

 

[Tim]

Well I do have one thing to add.... if this is ok for the military to do, then why are there 3 snipers on trial for murder for doing this? This is why the story is out there right now. One of the snipers who is on trial for murder is saying he was only following these bait and kill orders.

 

[Boomer]

it just doesn't mater thats a fucked up thing to say .

Its a fucked up thing to say, but the doods been shovin it down his neck so much its bound to get spit out.

As far as the bait tactic. We never had problem killing people before, I dont see the need to take it to these extremes.

 

[Homer]

if in fact they were following orders they should get a pass and they should move up the chain of command .

 

[dt3]

Here's my take on the subject. For starters, I don't know why we're assuming these snipers are guilty of anything (I'm not saying any of you are, but that's how the media is coming across to me). Remember the "slaughter of civilians in cold blood" that happened in Haditha? How many of those guys were found guilty of anything? It seems to me like the media latches onto these stories and ruins lives before anything is ever proven.

Also, EVERYONE in the military knows you're obligated to disobey illegal orders. That's day one of boot camp. So to think that would even come up as an attempt at a legal defense blows my mind.

Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.

Here's my main problem with the story. Snipers are in NO position to put a weapon on a body. Concealment is the priority of a sniper. I can't imagine one of them running 1000 yards through downtown Ramadi to the guy they just took down and planting a gun.

I met several Marine snipers in Iraq. A lot of them are on rooftops, or in positions they can't even get out of without help (which is as much as I'm gonna say on the internet about our sniper tactics). I can't see how they'd be able to lay bait or plant a weapon.

 

[Tim]

I agree Donnie. I don't know if these guys are guilty of anything and I wouldn't venture a guess to their guilt or innocence, I'll let a judge decide that. I sure as hell don't know what happened there and I really don't want to venture a guess...

All of my responses to this topic were hypothetical, as in, if this was an authorized program, is it ok to do it.

I heard some general talking about it on TV and he said that he doesn't know of any such directive for snipers. And he even said that such a program would be illegal and against the rules of war. He said according to the rules of engagement, it's not ok to shoot someone for picking something up.

 

[dt3]

I agree Donnie. I don't know if these guys are guilty of anything and I wouldn't venture a guess to their guilt or innocence, I'll let a judge decide that. I sure as hell don't know what happened there and I really don't want to venture a guess...

All of my responses to this topic were hypothetical, as in, if this was an authorized program, is it ok to do it.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree that hypothetically that would be completely wrong.

I heard some general talking about it on TV and he said that he doesn't know of any such directive for snipers. And he even said that such a program would be illegal and against the rules of war. He said according to the rules of engagement, it's not ok to shoot someone for picking something up.

And the General is definitely right on this one.

To use deadly force, you have to either have Hostile Action (like someone shooting at you) or Hostile Intent (planting an IED, etc...). I don't think picking up something proves either of those.

 

[Tim]

See that, we were in agreement the whole damn time.... I guess it's just a matter of wording it correctly to get our points across.

 

[dt3]

See that, we were in agreement the whole damn time.... I guess it's just a matter of wording it correctly to get our points across.

The Rules of Engagement are extremely strict, and any violation of them is taken beyond seriously. I'll share a war story:

I was on guard duty at the north gate of Camp Fallujah, around 2AM. We saw 2 people about 600yds away just standing on the side of the road (the only road leading out of the gate, all the convoys coming in and out used it).

Now, it wasn't a bus stop. 2 people standing beside the road is definitely suspicious. Every couple of minutes we could see one of them keep ducking down. We weren't allowed to fire at them. There was no Hostile Action or Hostile Intent. Eventually they just walked off.

The next convoy rolled in about an hour later, they just happened to be Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) guys.

They blew up an IED in the exact same spot those two guys were at.

If we had seen them using shovels and digging, they would've been dead. But because we didn't see that, we couldn't prove Hostile Intent, and couldn't fire.

:cool

 

[All Else Failed]

Still, the point is that this method is pretty hazardous to innocent people.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Donnie, I'm curious as to why no one was sent to check them/their location/etc. out? Or did it all happen too fast?

 

[dt3]

Donnie, I'm curious as to why no one was sent to check them/their location/etc. out? Or did it all happen too fast?

The QRF (Quick Reaction Force) was tied up in an attack on one of the pumphouses nearby, and we didn't have the manpower at the time

 

[GraceAbounds]

The QRF (Quick Reaction Force) was tied up in an attack on one of the pumphouses nearby, and we didn't have the manpower at the time

I can't imagine how you felt being right there, having to actually see that and not being able to do anything about it.

Thanks again for your service Donnie.

 

[Suzie]

Thanks again for your service Donnie.

Ditto Donnie.

 

[dt3]

I can't imagine how you felt being right there, having to actually see that and not being able to do anything about it.

Thanks again for your service Donnie.

Ditto Donnie.

Stop it, you're makin me blush

 

[Maulds]

Donnie I salute you (and not the same way James does)

 

[groundpounder]

The Rules of Engagement are extremely strict, and any violation of them is taken beyond seriously. I'll share a war story:

I was on guard duty at the north gate of Camp Fallujah, around 2AM. We saw 2 people about 600yds away just standing on the side of the road (the only road leading out of the gate, all the convoys coming in and out used it).

Now, it wasn't a bus stop. 2 people standing beside the road is definitely suspicious. Every couple of minutes we could see one of them keep ducking down. We weren't allowed to fire at them. There was no Hostile Action or Hostile Intent. Eventually they just walked off.

The next convoy rolled in about an hour later, they just happened to be Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) guys.

They blew up an IED in the exact same spot those two guys were at.

If we had seen them using shovels and digging, they would've been dead. But because we didn't see that, we couldn't prove Hostile Intent, and couldn't fire.

:cool

I can't believe I missed this the first time through. :cool

Surreal. Thanks again for your service, Marine! My humble hat's off to you!

I sure wish you'd see a shovel. Did you have a weapon that would reach out and touch someone at 600 yds? And night vision, eh? Cool.