The USA Gun Problem

[Peter Parka]

Sorry about the name calling, I just get fed up of repeating the same thing over and over again in these threads, it gets really fustrating, I was trying to approach this issue from a different angle and once again it gets dragged back to this.

It really dosent take too much looking to notice that a lot of innocent people get shot dead in the USA. Your cops job is much more dangerouse than here, something Natasha can back up, because of guns.

Are you seriously telling me, you dont notice more shootings in the USA than in other Western countries? If so, I can only conclude you've been really lucky. In my entire life, I have only ever seen a real loaded gun three times and one of them was in Malaysia, how about you? I seriously doubt that I have nearly as much chance of getting a burglar break into my home with a gun than you do in the USA. I've been broken into once and I saw the burglar off with a bike chain to the face. If I was in the USA I wouldn't do that incase he pulled a gun on me. Although he could have here, it's extremely unlikely.

And come on, do you really think that the mass shoot outs by nutters is just the same around the world? On the news here, BBC, pretty unbiased as you get, this year or so, I've heard of one in the Baltics, 1 in Germany and about 5 in the US.

 

[KpAtch3s]

I'm not really offended by the name calling. More like I was just giving you a hard time.

Sorry I didn't mean to change your angle of approach, but it seems you are looking to more regulations on guns and I was trying to cite where gun control doesn't help the situation.

Yes, I agree that policeman probably have a more dangerous job here in the USA.

My personal experience is I've never seen a policeman or otherwise pull a gun for the reason of defense or criminal activity. I have seen stuff on TV however. Other than that I've had personal experience with shooting hand guns, rifles, shotguns, and an assault rifle for sport. It is a real enjoyment as well. I've also never had a break in nor do I know anybody that it has happened to. So perhaps I am extremely lucky.

I do not think I've heard of any shoot outs here in the US since probably one of the school shooting incidents. Actually I take back, the incident of 4 policeman being shot and killed. But the stuff that goes on here in the US is minute when you compare to sections of Africa or South America. Some of the statistics from the Wikipedia link showed over 50 deaths associated to gun shot incidents per 100,000.

 

[Peter Parka]

Now we're getting back on track. I'm honestly not starting this thread to bash the USA. It's just that USA problems seem to be the only ones people generally respond to around here. I'm aware that gun crime is a lot worse in SA for instance but then, as far as I know, we only have one SA poster on this forum so that thread probably wouldn't go too far. We have other problems here in the UK but once again, not too many people would respond to that. I'm just saying, as big or as small as you want to make it, there is some kind of problem in the US with innocent people being shot by criminals and want to know what ways you can reduce it. I'm not so naieve as to expect a miracle cure which will completely stop it, crims always find a way and yes, we still get shootings over her. I'm just interested to know what ways you would suggest to cut down the shootings of innocent USA citizens and police even further? I'm aware that you have a big gang problem, do you think there is some way to cut this down and maybe that will help somewhat, for instance?

 

[KpAtch3s]

Our gang problem is really quite ridiculous. From what I know about that is there are certain parts of some cities that police won't even go into due to it being so dangerous and out of control. I have had a few thoughts about areas like this but they are radical and people would not allow for it. It would also create a huge uprising in these areas. Basically I'm thinking you use the National Guard to move into these areas and walk the streets and militarize the zone. Then you follow up by cleaning the area by cracking down on crime. Eventually the area would be safe enough you could with draw the national guard.

 

[Peter Parka]

I would tend to agree with that actually. I've seen documentaries on US prison gangs, not proffessing to know it all from there but the gang stuff can only really be describes as a cult, people who will die for their gang and it's very racially motivated. Not too different from radical Muslims in the middle east, you need to fight the enemy within if you are going to fight the enemy outside. These people are so brainwashed that I only see radical action being able to stamp it (mostly) out. :nod:

 

[KpAtch3s]

As far as other methods to protect the innocent? We could hand out body armor :24:

I think solving the gang problem would reduce a lot of problems with guns. Only other thing is to vigorously go after our drug problem as well. If we could reduce the amount of drugs shipped in perhaps it would undermine the gangs a little. This could just create gang wars as well since the supply would be less and they may fight over it.

 

[Peter Parka]

Or you could legalise drugs, get a bundle or tax from it and cut out a lot of illegal crime but thats probably something for a different thread.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

We don't have a gun problem.



We have a criminal problem.

Absolute fact.....Ted Kennedys car has killed more people than any of my handguns

 

[thatguyjeff]

There are hundreds of gun laws on the books already. And you think new gun laws will make a difference? It's not legal gun owners that are causing the problems. New gun laws won't do a thing to change the behavior of unlawful gun owners.

Legalize and regulate all drugs and you'll see gun crimes cut in half almost overnight.

 

[KpAtch3s]

There are hundreds of gun laws on the books already. And you think new gun laws will make a difference? It's not legal gun owners that are causing the problems. New gun laws won't do a thing to change the behavior of unlawful gun owners.

Legalize and regulate all drugs and you'll see gun crimes cut in half almost overnight.

Like peter said, that is probably in need of another thread. But go ahead, I'll be that much smarter when everyone else is high.

 

[Tim]

I believe the US does have a gun problem...

But with that being said, I am a strong proponent of private gun ownership here. I firmly believe that I should be allowed to own guns under certain guidelines.
Here's where I think we do it all wrong. We have one side that want no regulation on gun ownership and the other that wants to ban them all. They need to get together and work on getting together.
I would like to see any American that wants to own a gun be able to do so, but I want them to be licensed and the guns registered. I want a background check on those who want a license to own/carry a firearm and it should have to be renewed as often as your drivers license. If you are convicted of a crime then your license is revoked.
Then I would like to see tough gun laws enforced on those who have/use guns in any sort of crime.

I have always found the push back on registering your firearms or having some sort of license to own guns quite amusing. Since these same people have no problem registering their car and keeping their drivers license current so they can drive. What's the difference? And the age old argument that once they know where all the guns are, then they can come take them is nothing but a paranoid and outdated viewpoint.

I am a law abiding citizen that owns guns. I am a responsible owner that keeps them secure and locked up away from others (and my children) but I can access them very quickly in my electronic safe. I have no problem registering my guns and carrying a license, why would I?

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

I believe the US does have a gun problem...

But with that being said, I am a strong proponent of private gun ownership here. I firmly believe that I should be allowed to own guns under certain guidelines.
Here's where I think we do it all wrong. We have one side that want no regulation on gun ownership and the other that wants to ban them all. They need to get together and work on getting together.
I would like to see any American that wants to own a gun be able to do so, but I want them to be licensed and the guns registered. I want a background check on those who want a license to own/carry a firearm and it should have to be renewed as often as your drivers license. If you are convicted of a crime then your license is revoked.
Then I would like to see tough gun laws enforced on those who have/use guns in any sort of crime.

I have always found the push back on registering your firearms or having some sort of license to own guns quite amusing. Since these same people have no problem registering their car and keeping their drivers license current so they can drive. What's the difference? And the age old argument that once they know where all the guns are, then they can come take them is nothing but a paranoid and outdated viewpoint.

I am a law abiding citizen that owns guns. I am a responsible owner that keeps them secure and locked up away from others (and my children) but I can access them very quickly in my electronic safe. I have no problem registering my guns and carrying a license, why would I?

My opposition to gun registration is this Tim,

Everything you listed above, car registration, drives liscense etc, all come with taxation. How long before we begin paying lofty taxes on firearms once the government knows what we have?

Don't think that's a stretch either, and don't think that you cannot at some point become a target of suspicion once the government knows what type of weapons or how many weapons you have.

Bottom line is this, it's none of their business what, or how many I have. If I'm a law abiding citizen, the government has no reason to fear me.

My fathers great advice on just about anything:

"Son, never give anyone more power than you are willing to let them abuse"

 

[KpAtch3s]

I believe the US does have a gun problem...

But with that being said, I am a strong proponent of private gun ownership here. I firmly believe that I should be allowed to own guns under certain guidelines.
Here's where I think we do it all wrong. We have one side that want no regulation on gun ownership and the other that wants to ban them all. They need to get together and work on getting together.
I would like to see any American that wants to own a gun be able to do so, but I want them to be licensed and the guns registered. I want a background check on those who want a license to own/carry a firearm and it should have to be renewed as often as your drivers license. If you are convicted of a crime then your license is revoked.
Then I would like to see tough gun laws enforced on those who have/use guns in any sort of crime.

I have always found the push back on registering your firearms or having some sort of license to own guns quite amusing. Since these same people have no problem registering their car and keeping their drivers license current so they can drive. What's the difference? And the age old argument that once they know where all the guns are, then they can come take them is nothing but a paranoid and outdated viewpoint.

I am a law abiding citizen that owns guns. I am a responsible owner that keeps them secure and locked up away from others (and my children) but I can access them very quickly in my electronic safe. I have no problem registering my guns and carrying a license, why would I?

While I agree with you partially I think gun registration is pointless and here's my proof.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf

Read page 19-21. It's a short read. Then I suggest you read the rest of it. I recommend everyone read it actually. I'd go into it more but well I've already said more than my piece in this thread.

 

[thatguyjeff]

I have always found the push back on registering your firearms or having some sort of license to own guns quite amusing. Since these same people have no problem registering their car and keeping their drivers license current so they can drive. What's the difference? And the age old argument that once they know where all the guns are, then they can come take them is nothing but a paranoid and outdated viewpoint.

The big difference between guns and cars is that guns are a right under the constitution. Cars/driving is a priveldge, not a right.

I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but that's the way it is. Constitutional amendments would be required to change that, not any easy thing.

And I'm still confident that any new law won't change hardly a things. Those that are currently breaking the law will have no trouble with breaking new laws.

My claim about legalizing/regulating drugs has nothing to with taxation/revenue or anything like that. Though that would be an added bonus. But there is a direct correlary between drug trafficking and gun violence.

I'll put it this way:
At the moment, if one were to buy drugs illegally and was unsatisfied with the transaction, one has little recourse except to take matters into their own hands. It's irrelevant whether the transaction was fair in anyone's eyes or not. When someone feels screwed by their drug dealer, there is no agency to which one could file a complaint. The result is violence.

Legalizing/regulating drugs would protect the consumer in the same way the consumer is protected with any legitimate transaction. That is not to say that there still won't be a few nut-jobs out there who go in and shoot up retailers from time to time. But with regulation similar to any legitimate consumer transaction, the buyer will have a legitimate course of action when there is any sort of fraud.

In addition, crime simply begets crime. Take the crime out of drugs and there will no longer be the same criminal activity associated with drugs, violent or not.

 

[USF Sam]

Absolute fact.....Ted Kennedys car has killed more people than any of my handguns

:clap

Nice... I'm stealing that line.

 

[Tim]

My opposition to gun registration is this Tim,

Everything you listed above, car registration, drives liscense etc, all come with taxation. How long before we begin paying lofty taxes on firearms once the government knows what we have?

Don't think that's a stretch either, and don't think that you cannot at some point become a target of suspicion once the government knows what type of weapons or how many weapons you have.

Bottom line is this, it's none of their business what, or how many I have. If I'm a law abiding citizen, the government has no reason to fear me.

My fathers great advice on just about anything:

"Son, never give anyone more power than you are willing to let them abuse"

The only tax we pay for those items is during the purchase of the car and you already do that when you purchase a gun (pay taxes). The rest of the fees are to cover registration costs to the state.
I think it's more paranoia than anything... the government doesn't want your guns, they would never be able to take them... the gun owners would stand and fight, you know that. What sitting president would initiate that sort of unrest in the population? It's the same thing when any democrat comes into office, there is ALWAYS a run on guns and ammunition under fears that they will be taken away, yet it never happens. Paranoia...

While I agree with you partially I think gun registration is pointless and here's my proof.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.0/GunFacts5-0-screen.pdf

Read page 19-21. It's a short read. Then I suggest you read the rest of it. I recommend everyone read it actually. I'd go into it more but well I've already said more than my piece in this thread.

Maybe gun registration isn't needed... I'm not as convinced that registration would help the problem... But I will stand by my belief that if you want to own a gun, you need to be licensed. Then we can make sure people have a basic understanding of safely handling the gun and proper use and storage. And the sale of any firearm would require valid licenses.

The big difference between guns and cars is that guns are a right under the constitution. Cars/driving is a priveldge, not a right.

I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but that's the way it is. Constitutional amendments would be required to change that, not any easy thing.

And I'm still confident that any new law won't change hardly a things. Those that are currently breaking the law will have no trouble with breaking new laws.

Although it may be a right to bear arms, it is still subject to regulation. Licensing and registration wouldn't impede your right to own a gun unless you are not qualified to own one. But we already have laws on the books to cover that. If you are a convicted felon, you cannot own a gun, you cannot own a rocket launcher or hand grenade, etc...

 

[Darrell]

I really want to participate, but every time I get into political threads feelings get hurt. So I will continue to read.

 

[BadBoy@TheWheel]

The only tax we pay for those items is during the purchase of the car and you already do that when you purchase a gun (pay taxes). The rest of the fees are to cover registration costs to the state.
I think it's more paranoia than anything... the government doesn't want your guns, they would never be able to take them... the gun owners would stand and fight, you know that. What sitting president would initiate that sort of unrest in the population? It's the same thing when any democrat comes into office, there is ALWAYS a run on guns and ammunition under fears that they will be taken away, yet it never happens. Paranoia...



Maybe gun registration isn't needed... I'm not as convinced that registration would help the problem... But I will stand by my belief that if you want to own a gun, you need to be licensed. Then we can make sure people have a basic understanding of safely handling the gun and proper use and storage. And the sale of any firearm would require valid licenses.



Although it may be a right to bear arms, it is still subject to regulation. Licensing and registration wouldn't impede your right to own a gun unless you are not qualified to own one. But we already have laws on the books to cover that. If you are a convicted felon, you cannot own a gun, you cannot own a rocket launcher or hand grenade, etc...

I didn't say anything about them taking guns, although you should be well aware that has been an established agenda since the first Clinton regime.

I am talking taxation, and taxation on ammunition has already gone up. As of right now, there is nothing stopping the federal government from taxing us on whatever they want.

And I don't care if it's state, or federal taxation. Nuff S Nuff. Here's the issue Tim, why give a fucking inch? Why even ponder vanquishing one more piece of civil liberty?

To me, there's no argument for giving the government anymore power than what they have, and really they need to be taken down a notch.

 

[AUFred]

I didn't say anything about them taking guns, although you should be well aware that has been an established agenda since the first Clinton regime.

I am talking taxation, and taxation on ammunition has already gone up. As of right now, there is nothing stopping the federal government from taxing us on whatever they want.

And I don't care if it's state, or federal taxation. Nuff S Nuff. Here's the issue Tim, why give a fucking inch? Why even ponder vanquishing one more piece of civil liberty?

To me, there's no argument for giving the government anymore power than what they have, and really they need to be taken down a notch.

Yep! And registration of guns & gun owners just makes gun confiscation easier down the road. Make the penalties for using a gun in the commision of a crime substantial and non-negotiable. 10 years in the pokey for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime in addition to any other punishments issued.

 

[Tim]

Yep! And registration of guns & gun owners just makes gun confiscation easier down the road. Make the penalties for using a gun in the commision of a crime substantial and non-negotiable. 10 years in the pokey for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime in addition to any other punishments issued.

Paranoid much?

Do any of you guys own a handgun? Well if you do, the government knows it. They know the make model and serial number.... does that mean they are going to come take it away?

:willy_nilly: