The USA Constitution

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Stone

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Can you imagine what a constitution written by the corporate clowns we have in Washington would look like? The Bill of Rights would be an actual bill, with gratuity already figured in! :D


Indeed.
Also imagine the results by either of the two major political parties.
Imagine the chaos from libertarianism.
Imagine leftwing socialists versus neocons.
Imagine the draconian results written from a fundamentalist religious pov.

Now imagine trying to rewrite it with the above vying for influence and control in a new version.
 
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pjbleek

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thank God we have the right to argue/discuss the Constitution.....whether we agree or disagree its good to know that we can do this.
 

Stone

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You seriously think there is even a remote likelyhood that the USA could be invaded? Please tell me you're joking.

Recent history.

19 men led an attack with the intention of destroying our financial center, our military command center, and possibly our central government.

It's been called 911


You're obviously thinking of a large scale military land based invasion.....that's unlikely.

Even WW2 Japan was defeated and surrendered without a large scale invasion on their homeland....it took two bombs.
 
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Tim

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Indeed.
Also imagine the results by either of the two major political parties.
Imagine the chaos from libertarianism.
Imagine leftwing socialists versus neocons.
Imagine the draconian results written from a fundamentalist religious pov.

Now imagine trying to rewrite it with the above vying for influence and control in a new version.

The only way it could ever be written subjectively is if you got a room full of constitutional scholars that were not beholden to any party. The absolute brightest minds in the country that could look at it without ANY political agenda or religious bias... and I'm not sure that could happen

I would love to see some attempts at it though... it would be interesting to see the outcome
 

pjbleek

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The only way it could ever be written subjectively is if you got a room full of constitutional scholars that were not beholden to any party. The absolute brightest minds in the country that could look at it without ANY political agenda or religious bias... and I'm not sure that could happen

I would love to see some attempts at it though... it would be interesting to see the outcome
even the pre-ramble would be debated....amongst other things.. and I agree, it would be super hard as hell to do that some kind thing it this day and age...
 

Stone

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The only way it could ever be written subjectively is if you got a room full of constitutional scholars that were not beholden to any party. The absolute brightest minds in the country that could look at it without ANY political agenda or religious bias... and I'm not sure that could happen

Indeed....but do any/enough even exist that have no political influence?
But it's not just a rule book, it's a policy statement also.

How can the rule of a republic be determined without some form of political intentions?
 

Tim

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Indeed....but do any/enough even exist that have no political influence?
But it's not just a rule book, it's a policy statement also.

How can the rule of a republic be determined without some form of political intentions?

I don't believe politics have any place in the rule of law. I think that's the problem we have today, laws aren't written objectively and have a political spin to them.

And no, I don't think we have many people that are unbiased that would have the ability to rewrite the constitution.
 

CityGirl

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But, to support your point: I forget which of the founders said it, but one of them suggested that the entire Constitution should be rewritten every 7 years or so.

On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation. They may manage it then, and what proceeds from it, as they please, during their usufruct. They are masters too of their own persons, and consequently may govern them as they please. But persons and property make the sum of the objects of government. The constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished them, in their natural course, with those whose will gave them being. This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself, and no longer. Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19. years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right.

It may be said that the succeeding generation exercising in fact the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to 19. years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be indeed if every form of government were so perfectly contrived that the will of the majority could always be obtained fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils. Bribery corrupts them. Personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise so as to prove to every practical man that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison Paris, Sep. 6, 1789 http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl81.htm


Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the arc of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it, and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present, but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects.

But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors. It is this preposterous idea which has lately deluged Europe in blood. Their monarchs, instead of wisely yielding to the gradual change of circumstances, of favoring progressive accommodation to progressive improvement, have clung to old abuses, entrenched themselves behind steady habits, and obliged their subjects to seek through blood and violence rash and ruinous innovations, which, had they been referred to the peaceful deliberations and collected wisdom of the nation, would have been put into acceptable and salutary forms. Let us follow no such examples, nor weakly believe that one generation is not as capable as another of taking care of itself, and of ordering its own affairs. Let us, as our sister States have done, avail ourselves of our reason and experience, to correct the crude essays of our first and unexperienced, although wise, virtuous, and well-meaning councils. And lastly, let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods.

What these periods should be, nature herself indicates. By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation. Each generation is as independent as the one preceding, as that was of all which had gone before. It has then, like them, a right to choose for itself the form of government it believes most promotive of its own happiness; consequently, to accommodate to the circumstances in which it finds itself, that received from its predecessors; and it is for the peace and good of mankind, that a solemn opportunity of doing this every nineteen or twenty years, should be provided by the constitution; so that it may be handed on, with periodical repairs, from generation to generation, to the end of time, if anything human can so long endure. It is now forty years since the constitution of Virginia was formed. The same tables inform us, that, within that period, two-thirds of the adults then living are now dead. Have then the remaining third, even if they had the wish, the right to hold in obedience to their will, and to laws heretofore made by them, the other two-thirds, who, with themselves, compose the present mass of adults? If they have not, who has? The dead? But the dead have no rights. They are nothing; and nothing cannot own something. Where there is no substance, there can be no accident.

This corporeal globe, and everything upon it, belong to its present corporeal inhabitants, during their generation. They alone have a right to direct what is the concern of themselves alone, and to declare the law of that direction; and this declaration can only be made by their majority. That majority, then, has a right to depute representatives to a convention, and to make the constitution what they think will be the best for themselves. But how collect their voice? This is the real difficulty. If invited by private authority, or county or district meetings, these divisions are so large that few will attend; and their voice will be imperfectly, or falsely pronounced. Here, then, would be one of the advantages of the ward divisions I have proposed. The mayor of every ward, on a question like the present, would call his ward together, take the simple yea or nay of its members, convey these to the county court, who would hand on those of all its wards to the proper general authority; and the voice of the whole people would be thus fairly, fully, and peaceably expressed, discussed, and decided by the common reason of the society. If this avenue be shut to the call of sufferance, it will make itself heard through that of force, and we shall go on, as other nations are doing, in the endless circle of oppression, rebellion, reformation; and oppression, rebellion, reformation, again; and so on forever. Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval
 

Tangerine

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IMO no man in our country's history had a better understanding of life, society, human nature, government and freedom than Thomas Jefferson. Perhaps the single most intelligent man that ever lived on US soil.
 

pjbleek

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IMO no man in our country's history had a better understanding of life, society, human nature, government and freedom than Thomas Jefferson. Perhaps the single most intelligent man that ever lived on US soil.

he really was into Voltaire and his thoughts...educated in the finer writings of the Euros and their counterparts...I remember in a poly sci class having to see where the Declaration was influenced from...very hard work but worth the research effort...and my professor was really strict about us not to overlap in any of one thinker/writer/historian
 

Stone

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I don't believe politics have any place in the rule of law. I think that's the problem we have today, laws aren't written objectively and have a political spin to them.

And no, I don't think we have many people that are unbiased that would have the ability to rewrite the constitution.

I don't believe politics have any place in the rule of law. I think that's the problem we have today, laws aren't written objectively and have a political spin to them.

Good point....but not as an absolute......if the intent is to engineer a republic, the concept of starting with that goal in mind.... begins with a bias. And that is a political position.

If not a republic, what else and what is used as a measuring stick?
Again, some form of bias is going to enter the equation.

As the Constitution is in essence, a political position.....it seems reasonable that the decisions in forming it or any future document come from a political bias.....the issue is whether it's acceptable/accepted by the society.

There are absolutely no absolutes :D
 
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