The ungovernable people ???

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Mercury

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Following right alone the lines of this discussion. I wonder if a form of government can be put together that would be acceptable to all...

Maybe a new thread should be started on this...

But I don't see ANY form of governing/government being correct.

Let me see if I can clarify. I would not want to see our government strictly adhere to any philosophy such as Liberalism, Conservatism, Libertarian-ism, etc. I find good qualities in all of them yet oppose any one of them as a complete package.

What would be the perfect balance between the differing forms of governance?

Good call, Tim! I agree with you that any single form of Government is a BAD idea.

Reminds me of Germany when the National Socialists gained more and more power. The single party became the ONLY form of government and any other form of government was considered criminal. (While I don't see this happening here within the U.S. ... history does have a funny way of repeating itself in different forms.)

So what would be the perfect balance between the differing forms of governance? .... hmmmmm

An excellent question ... I really am not sure.
 
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Mercury

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be nice to have an experiment where states are created with distinct forms of government that mirror what we know today, and all of these states start off with equal resources, and people could choose where they wanted to live based oin how they wanted their government to operate

fast forward fitfy years and see what happens

That's funny, actually! I was just thinking the same thing. It would be an AWESOME experiment!!!
 

Accountable

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While I do believe that a society without any form of government would be ideal (with 100% of the population able to behave) I just don't see that EVER being possible.
Legislation is surrender. Just like building a fence in the old days was surrendering to the fact that you couldn't have both the open range and keep the cattle from being eaten, making laws is surrendering part of our freedom, giving up on trying to have that bit of freedom and something else (whatever you're making laws about) at the same time. The key is surrendering as little as possible, and weighing very carefully that which we are surrendering before throwing it away. People these days seem to think that we need a law for everything - that if something doesn't have a law attached to it then it risks chaos. Silly.
 

Jackass master

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Legislation is surrender. Just like building a fence in the old days was surrendering to the fact that you couldn't have both the open range and keep the cattle from being eaten, making laws is surrendering part of our freedom, giving up on trying to have that bit of freedom and something else (whatever you're making laws about) at the same time. The key is surrendering as little as possible, and weighing very carefully that which we are surrendering before throwing it away. People these days seem to think that we need a law for everything - that if something doesn't have a law attached to it then it risks chaos. Silly.
Could not agree more. Well said.
 

Mercury

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Legislation is surrender. Just like building a fence in the old days was surrendering to the fact that you couldn't have both the open range and keep the cattle from being eaten, making laws is surrendering part of our freedom, giving up on trying to have that bit of freedom and something else (whatever you're making laws about) at the same time. The key is surrendering as little as possible, and weighing very carefully that which we are surrendering before throwing it away. People these days seem to think that we need a law for everything - that if something doesn't have a law attached to it then it risks chaos. Silly.

Could not agree more. Well said.

An excellent point!

weighing very carefully that which we are surrendering before throwing it away.
This is also a good point. It does seem that our legislators see a small number of issues then feel that new legislation must be made while little consideration is made about what is being negatively impacted.

Too much legislation is inefficient and can strangle the individual.

Perhaps because we have such a HUGE mix of cultures here in the United States that "norms" or "common sense" doesn't exist as it once did. Now what is "normal" or "common sense" to some is not for many others. Could this cause an increase in legislation and laws?
 

Tim

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Legislation is surrender. Just like building a fence in the old days was surrendering to the fact that you couldn't have both the open range and keep the cattle from being eaten, making laws is surrendering part of our freedom, giving up on trying to have that bit of freedom and something else (whatever you're making laws about) at the same time. The key is surrendering as little as possible, and weighing very carefully that which we are surrendering before throwing it away. People these days seem to think that we need a law for everything - that if something doesn't have a law attached to it then it risks chaos. Silly.

Legislation is surrender? I think that's your problem, you see it as a surrendering of your liberties. But it's a two edged sword.
When laws are passed to ensure that the beef you buy is not contaminated with deadly diseases, you see that as a surrendering of the butchers liberties, where I see it as a protection of the public that buys his products.
I guess we can do away with such laws and let the "free market" decide who stays in business, but I am afraid that wouldn't work... not even close.
 

Stone

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Legislation is surrender? I think that's your problem, you see it as a surrendering of your liberties. But it's a two edged sword.
When laws are passed to ensure that the beef you buy is not contaminated with deadly diseases, you see that as a surrendering of the butchers liberties, where I see it as a protection of the public that buys his products.
I guess we can do away with such laws and let the "free market" decide who stays in business, but I am afraid that wouldn't work... not even close.

When laws are passed to ensure that the beef you buy is not contaminated with deadly diseases..... I see it as a protection of the public that buys his products.


Agreed....laws are intended to restrict abuses that are detrimental to the public and society.
Conceptually, they aren't a surrender of liberties, they insure the liberties of those targeted for abuse. A major fail was the banking system under the GW Bush administration as deregulation allowed profiteering at the expense of the general public's welfare.
 

Accountable

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Legislation is surrender? I think that's your problem, you see it as a surrendering of your liberties. But it's a two edged sword.
When laws are passed to ensure that the beef you buy is not contaminated with deadly diseases, you see that as a surrendering of the butchers liberties, where I see it as a protection of the public that buys his products.
I guess we can do away with such laws and let the "free market" decide who stays in business, but I am afraid that wouldn't work... not even close.
Of course it's surrendering, and you can't possibly argue against it. If we could trust every butcher to keep their areas and tools germ free and pristine, then legislation would not be necessary. We know we can't trust for that to happen. We surrender to that fact, and so we acknowledge that we need legislation. Legislation acknowledges that we are not perfect and can't be trusted. Legislation acknowledges our failure.
 

Tim

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Of course it's surrendering, and you can't possibly argue against it. If we could trust every butcher to keep their areas and tools germ free and pristine, then legislation would not be necessary. We know we can't trust for that to happen. We surrender to that fact, and so we acknowledge that we need legislation. Legislation acknowledges that we are not perfect and can't be trusted. Legislation acknowledges our failure.

First you say that it is surrendering part of our freedom, now you say it's surrendering to the fact we can't trust people to do the right thing.

So which is it? You are going in circles here.

Using my example again, if the butcher is already using safe practices and keeps a clean establishment, a law ensuring that would not infringe on any ones liberty. The butcher would continue as he always did and the consumer would be assured that the meat he is purchasing is free from disease.
So where is the surrendering of liberties?
 

Panacea

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I think he's saying legislation is surrendering to the fact liberty is dangerous in certain instances. :dunno
 

Leananshee

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Generally speaking, you have the liberty to do what you want relative to another's liberty to do the same. Your rights end where another's begin. Where that plays into laws being made are that not everyone conducts himself in a way that doesn't harm others. So the butcher who has kept his establishment clean and has run his business fairly has to pay somewhat for the fact that others don't do that. Butcher A has to submit to the same checks as B, C, D, and so on. There is, then, always a certain amount of "surrender" to create a rule of law.

The question is, then, the manner in which the overseeing authority comes about and what powers it has. It's a foregone conclusion, I think, that many of the authorities in the United States, at least, have grown beyond the consent of the governed and are more in the pockets of those with greater means. That does not mean there should be no rule of law, but it does mean that the governed have an obligation to check the power of the governing. The founding fathers expected that, but our current government would likely see such statements as "terrorist speak".
 

Alien Allen

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a very wide ranging question

there are some aspects of my daily life where i dont want government to interfere, for example I am not allowed to keep chickens in my backyard for the purpose of egg collecting/consumption

however i am also quite pleased that the government will prosecute my neighbour if he drives drunk and kills someone

I think it would depend upon the neighborhood with regards to raising chickens

If you own acreage and limit the chickens to where they have no impact on neighbors with regard to noise and odor I agree you should feel able to raise them.

Freedom also means being free of negative impact by a neighbor.
 

Accountable

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First you say that it is surrendering part of our freedom, now you say it's surrendering to the fact we can't trust people to do the right thing.

So which is it? You are going in circles here.

Using my example again, if the butcher is already using safe practices and keeps a clean establishment, a law ensuring that would not infringe on any ones liberty. The butcher would continue as he always did and the consumer would be assured that the meat he is purchasing is free from disease.
So where is the surrendering of liberties?
The liberty to NOT do that, of course.

We surrender specific parts of our freedom because we decide that enough can't be trusted with it. When you pass a law, you have less freedom. It's fact, not judgment.
When you spend money for food, you have less money. The fact that you need food to survive doesn't change that.
 

Accountable

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I think he's saying legislation is surrendering to the fact liberty is dangerous in certain instances. :dunno
Yes, I think that fits, though it grates me to acknowledge it. One really can have too much of anything, even liberty.

Generally speaking, you have the liberty to do what you want relative to another's liberty to do the same. Your rights end where another's begin. Where that plays into laws being made are that not everyone conducts himself in a way that doesn't harm others. So the butcher who has kept his establishment clean and has run his business fairly has to pay somewhat for the fact that others don't do that. Butcher A has to submit to the same checks as B, C, D, and so on. There is, then, always a certain amount of "surrender" to create a rule of law.

The question is, then, the manner in which the overseeing authority comes about and what powers it has. It's a foregone conclusion, I think, that many of the authorities in the United States, at least, have grown beyond the consent of the governed and are more in the pockets of those with greater means. That does not mean there should be no rule of law, but it does mean that the governed have an obligation to check the power of the governing. The founding fathers expected that, but our current government would likely see such statements as "terrorist speak".
Well said.
 

Stone

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The liberty to NOT do that, of course.

We surrender specific parts of our freedom because we decide that enough can't be trusted with it. When you pass a law, you have less freedom. It's fact, not judgment.
When you spend money for food, you have less money. The fact that you need food to survive doesn't change that.

because we decide that enough can't be trusted with it.

Sophistry.........it's issues of abuse that laws and regulations are entrusted to control.
Issues of acceptance include effectiveness versus draconian implementation.
And yes....any law negates an element of conceptual 'freedom' and would naturally create less freedom.
The only system I'm aware of that theoretically embraces absolute freedom is anarchy, a system without governing/regulation or laws.
I'm not aware of any complex society succeeding in applying such a system.
I'm not aware of any successful society with out laws and regulations.
The goal is to govern with out rejection. Obviously a difficult status to maintain.
 

Minor Axis

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Laws exist to protect us from selfishness and stupidity. We like to think that it's the selfishness and stupidity of others, but as often as not, it's our own.

As long as those we put in charge are not selfish and stupid...and I realize this is a very subjective statement. :p
Basically you have government or you have some form of anarchy, small groups and power structures that determine just what local law will be. I want no part of the latter.

Generally speaking, you have the liberty to do what you want relative to another's liberty to do the same. Your rights end where another's begin. Where that plays into laws being made are that not everyone conducts himself in a way that doesn't harm others. So the butcher who has kept his establishment clean and has run his business fairly has to pay somewhat for the fact that others don't do that. Butcher A has to submit to the same checks as B, C, D, and so on. There is, then, always a certain amount of "surrender" to create a rule of law.

The question is, then, the manner in which the overseeing authority comes about and what powers it has. It's a foregone conclusion, I think, that many of the authorities in the United States, at least, have grown beyond the consent of the governed and are more in the pockets of those with greater means. That does not mean there should be no rule of law, but it does mean that the governed have an obligation to check the power of the governing. The founding fathers expected that, but our current government would likely see such statements as "terrorist speak".

I like your sentiment. I'll add that the more society develops the less individual freedoms individuals will have. It's a fact. And I'll add that no matter what the libertarians assert, you liberty should not allow you to run a public business such as a butcher and discriminate on who your customers will be based based on race, religion, or gender. There is no room for that in civilized society, period. :)
 
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Accountable

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I'll add that the more society develops the less individual freedoms individuals will have. It's a fact.
It is indeed a fact so long as society develops in the way that it is, but nibbling away more and ever more liberty is not the only way to develop a society. Would a society be fully developed only when all liberty is gone?
 

Mercury

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So with the recent shooting massacre in the Aurora movie theater, the debate comes up about proper gun control and the ability to stop these types of tragedies from happening in the future.

This falls into a governing type category. Is it possible to stop (or minimize) these types of instances from occurring in the future? How does a government help stop such things from occurring? When it comes to determining what actions need to be taken, one needs to measure pro's and con's.

Would a complete ban on all citizen owned firearms be a viable solution?

Would a more intense screening, application process and observation program for citizen owned firearms be successful?

Should a privatized, non-government body become the authoritative body when dealing with citizen owned firearms?

Should more people carry firearms to react in such cases?

Is there such a thing as a perfect psychological evaluation that can successfully tag a person as "dangerous"? If not 100% accurate but fairly accurate, should citizens be required to such a screening upon reaching a certain age?

There are so many different approaches that can be taken, from a governing standpoint, when these types of issues happen. There is always a "mad dash" to try to find ways in preventing future tragedies like the Aurora shooting from happening again. The problem is that it requires more authoritative measures from some governing body. Steps to be taken can either be more sever and take away individual civil liberties but be more effective or steps can be taken that will be rather loose, keep civil liberties, but be less effective.

A rather difficult position to be in, as a law maker ...
 

darkcgi

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Lets just say there was no law no government no police nothing
its all up to you to defend your family and your things and you still have to provide and prosper to survive
everyone you meet would be trying to take what you have
 
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