The Democrat Convention 2012

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Tim

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That would be so much easier for you wouldnt it...you may want to start thoroughly reading your links before posting them.

I did read the link and I understood it. You may have read it, but you clearly don't understand what you read. That's the whole problem here.
 
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Patch

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:24: I guess you slept through the Bush years :24:

No I didn't sleep through them years. My business thrived the best during his first 6 years employing over 95 employees. Since Obama we have dropped to 35 employees and the ones that are here are getting paid less per hour. So how is Obama better when no one is working but your missing the point and that is both the Democrat party and the Republican Party is screwing us one way or the other.
 

The Man

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I did read the link and I understood it. You may have read it, but you clearly don't understand what you read. That's the whole problem here.

And as said...the work over of gm was renegotiate with the unions.
Union wages plus the benefits was about 70 bucks an hour /somewhat high if one wants to be turn some profit.
Chrysler was also failing due to the same problem.
So lets do some math shall we
GM had about 250 thousand employees.
250,000 times 40 {hours a week} times 52 {weeks in a year} times 70 {dollars] comes out to 36,400,000,000 dollars paid in wages per year. Thats 36 billion dollars.
As we can see by negotiating with the union /eliminating tens of thousands of workers /and get that 70 dollar an hour wage and benefit figure down we are talking billions that the company doesn't have to pay each year...which is what slowly started to put em under...due to the sharing the wealth bullshit.. Now they can keep afloat as they have been doing.
The only other course of action would been to have raised the price of the autos greatly..but then they wouldnt sale...and since sales would be down and the union boys still on the clock this would raise the price of each vehicle further to offset the cost to manufacture ...which means they would have to raise the price yet further which would further reduce sales...you get the picture...So as you see there was nothing they could do as the unions ruled not the corporation itself.
 

Alien Allen

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GM and Chrysler would have survived with a loan instead of the strong arm tactics

The UAW had made concessions that would make them competitive but they did not take affect for about another year.

Meanwhile the stock holders who somebody earlier had contempt for I am sure would gladly take a reduced dividend over the last few years instead of Obama forcing their stock to be the worth of toilet paper

But lets not have the facts get in the way of a good spin

Most people are clueless about the auto issue. They don't know the facts. I tend to be a bit up to speed on that issue as I live in the burbs where we heard all the details daily and it had a bigger impact on those in the area so we paid more attention to what was going on.
 

Tim

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And as said...the work over of gm was renegotiate with the unions.
Union wages plus the benefits was about 70 bucks an hour /somewhat high if one wants to be turn some profit.
Chrysler was also failing due to the same problem.
So lets do some math shall we
GM had about 250 thousand employees.
250,000 times 40 {hours a week} times 52 {weeks in a year} times 70 {dollars] comes out to 36,400,000,000 dollars paid in wages per year. Thats 36 billion dollars.
As we can see by negotiating with the union /eliminating tens of thousands of workers /and get that 70 dollar an hour wage and benefit figure down we are talking billions that the company doesn't have to pay each year...which is what slowly started to put em under...due to the sharing the wealth bullshit.. Now they can keep afloat as they have been doing.
The only other course of action would been to have raised the price of the autos greatly..but then they wouldnt sale...and since sales would be down and the union boys still on the clock this would raise the price of each vehicle further to offset the cost to manufacture ...which means they would have to raise the price yet further which would further reduce sales...you get the picture...So as you see there was nothing they could do as the unions ruled not the corporation itself.

Wow, holy shit...

I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the $36.4 billion in salary.
In 2008 GM sold just under 3 million cars and trucks. I'm using the 2008 number because that was just before restructuring. They sold slightly more before and about a million less today.
But with only selling 3 million cars, the cost of labor for each car would be well over $12,000 using your numbers
The actual cost of labor per car in the US is about 8% or $2000 per car, NOT $12,000.
That $2000 is calculated by using $66.60/hr wage time 30 hours to build each car. That is the average cost for all 3 of the big manufacturers in the US.

Next is the number of GM employees. 250,000 is world wide. You need to remove the non-union employees overseas and you also need to remove everybody who is not on the floor building the cars because they are the only ones in the union.
There are only 48,500 UAW workers at GM

Next is your $70/hr rate.
The average GM UAW employee makes $56/hr. That is wages and benefits (total overhead)
Ford actually pays $58/hr on average. That's $2 more per hour for their union labor, so why didn't they go bankrupt?

So the total number of UAW workers at GM is 48,500 averaging $56/hr total compensation, meaning that total dollars per year is $2,716,000 for the union employees

:24:

How the hell am I suppose to take you seriously???
 
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Tim

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GM and Chrysler would have survived with a loan instead of the strong arm tactics

The UAW had made concessions that would make them competitive but they did not take affect for about another year.

Meanwhile the stock holders who somebody earlier had contempt for I am sure would gladly take a reduced dividend over the last few years instead of Obama forcing their stock to be the worth of toilet paper

But lets not have the facts get in the way of a good spin

Most people are clueless about the auto issue. They don't know the facts. I tend to be a bit up to speed on that issue as I live in the burbs where we heard all the details daily and it had a bigger impact on those in the area so we paid more attention to what was going on.

Oh yeah... you are SOOO beholden to the facts yet you have no problem when The Man spouts off things that are so wrong that a 5th grader can see through it.

I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you were able to call out the bullshit on both sides... I mean just look over his fucking numbers and try not to laugh
 

The Man

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Wow, holy shit...

I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the $36.4 billion in salary.
In 2008 GM sold just under 3 million cars and trucks. I'm using the 2008 number because that was just before restructuring. They sold slightly more before and about a million less today.
But with only selling 3 million cars, the cost of labor for each car would be well over $12,000 using your numbers
The actual cost of labor per car in the US is about 8% or $2000 per car, NOT $12,000.
That $2000 is calculated by using $66.60/hr wage time 30 hours to build each car. That is the average cost for all 3 of the big manufacturers in the US.

Next is the number of GM employees. 250,000 is world wide. You need to remove the non-union employees overseas and you also need to remove everybody who is not on the floor building the cars because they are the only ones in the union.
There are only 48,500 UAW workers at GM

Next is your $70/hr rate.
The average GM UAW employee makes $56/hr. That is wages and benefits (total overhead)
Ford actually pays $58/hr on average. That's $2 more per hour for their union labor, so why didn't they go bankrupt?

So the total number of UAW workers at GM is 48,500 averaging $56/hr total compensation, meaning that total dollars per year is $2,716,000 for the union employees

:24:

How the hell am I suppose to take you seriously???
Saw this nut am getting ready to get to bed...will assemble documentation tomorrow and write you a post

You are missing a few things there tim...roughly 96 thousand North American GM workers...and 118 thousand retires on pension..thats 200 plus thousand people on payroll tim{and it was higher before Obama stepped in} not the 40 some odd thousand you mention..and my 70 bucks was a light estimate it is actually 73 bucks and some change{for the Union grunts}
technically we are both wrong if it makes you feel better as I was busy arguing with other liberals when I wrote that post and didnt include non unions wages{and failed to separate them}...you know the fuckers that make the big bucks/ }. {Which Obama had to beat them up as well}...but anyway I will dig it all up tomorrow..it was coming out close to 6,000 a car I do remember..For the union and non union salaries so the figure will be even higher yet than what I originally wrote.
I need to crash its 330 in the morning here
 

Alien Allen

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Oh yeah... you are SOOO beholden to the facts yet you have no problem when The Man spouts off things that are so wrong that a 5th grader can see through it.

I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you were able to call out the bullshit on both sides... I mean just look over his fucking numbers and try not to laugh

I was not really responding to his post but more so a couple earlier ones.

I would have to look back thru some articles but I do Man might be right on his $70 an hour cost was at one time pretty accurate. Only after the concessions I believe were they reduced to below $60. In all the discussions going on locally at the time I do not recall the actual hours it took to build a car. Are you sure that $2k you refer to was not the legacy costs to build a car??

Speaking of legacy costs somebody commented that they were solvent at one time and as I recall blamed management for them getting out of control. That is a laughable stance that is based on ignorance. That same mindset is why public sector pensions, and social security are out of control. They all are not sustainable in their current form.
 

Tim

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Speaking of legacy costs somebody commented that they were solvent at one time and as I recall blamed management for them getting out of control. That is a laughable stance that is based on ignorance. That same mindset is why public sector pensions, and social security are out of control. They all are not sustainable in their current form.

Please explain how this is possible...

Doesn't anyone know how pensions work?

Pension plan formulas are generally designed to tie the participants’ benefits at retirement to their
compensation and/or service with the employer. Each employer chooses how to reflect compensation
and service based on their individual business needs and the needs of their workforce. Pensions are a
form of deferred compensation. Participants trade compensation today for future pensions tomorrow.
Both the pension funding rules and pension accounting rules require that the cost of that deferred
compensation be recognized as it is earned.

So employees agree to give up a percentage of their current compensation for future pension payments. This isn't money just derived out of thin air, it's funded by the employee and the employer according to the agreement made between the employer and employee.
While the employee is employed with the company the company is investing the funds to cover the employees future pension.
Now these pensions are agreed to by the company based on actuaries based on employee age, years of service to the company, age of retirement and average life expectancy of employee. These actuaries are used in combination with calculations of contribution, potential market gains and interest rates. This is why an employee must be vested into a pension plan a certain number of years before even being eligible to collect. Then the number of years contributing determines how much pension payments are.

So are you telling me that these companies enter into agreements on pension funds and they had no way of funding them? They weren't smart to figure these things out???

Well that's not the case.

Time and time again these companies and municipalities do NOT fund them like they are required to and when the bill comes due they don't have the money to live up to THEIR obligation and the retired employee that had worked all those years at less pay and while contributing to their share of the pension fund is FUCKED.

Pensions are NOT a gift from the employer, never were.

How is it any different than me trying to take my 2 weeks vacation at the end of the year and my company says it can't afford to pay me those weeks? Those weeks of vacation were NOT a gift from my employer to me. They were part of my compensation, not gifts.
 

Minor Axis

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Time and time again these companies and municipalities do NOT fund them like they are required to and when the bill comes due they don't have the money to live up to THEIR obligation and the retired employee that had worked all those years at less pay and while contributing to their share of the pension fund is FUCKED.

This is a common occurrence with corporations. They do it because they can, without legal consequence. The year Exxon gave their retiring CEO a $400M retirement package, they underfunded their pension program...
 

robdawg1

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But heaven forbid we try to regulate that to be fair to the employee because then we are socialists right. Fuck a Union and let the worker be damned because surely the CEO and his Corporate buddies are going to choose to be fair when they dont have to and not line their pockets at every concievable turn!
 

Accountable

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But heaven forbid we try to regulate that to be fair to the employee because then we are socialists right. Fuck a Union and let the worker be damned because surely the CEO and his Corporate buddies are going to choose to be fair when they dont have to and not line their pockets at every concievable turn!
Hyperbole doesn't help, either.
 

Alien Allen

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But heaven forbid we try to regulate that to be fair to the employee because then we are socialists right. Fuck a Union and let the worker be damned because surely the CEO and his Corporate buddies are going to choose to be fair when they dont have to and not line their pockets at every concievable turn!

The problem is I think your mindset is that the greedy bastards leading the Big 3 don't deserve their pay. Which is irreverent as far as their being profitable. Excessive pay to the execs is not what bankrupted the companies.

Everyone wants to get paid well but the UAW held the Big 3 hostage for as long as I can remember. They did not want just high wages for entry level jobs but wanted job security, gold plated health care and rich retirement packages. I do not begrudge them for doing that. They got what they wanted which was not sustainable. Only when they had nothing left to threaten did they negotiate. There is a reason there had not been any lengthy strikes for years.
 

Tim

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The problem is I think your mindset is that the greedy bastards leading the Big 3 don't deserve their pay. Which is irreverent as far as their being profitable. Excessive pay to the execs is not what bankrupted the companies.

Everyone wants to get paid well but the UAW held the Big 3 hostage for as long as I can remember. They did not want just high wages for entry level jobs but wanted job security, gold plated health care and rich retirement packages. I do not begrudge them for doing that. They got what they wanted which was not sustainable. Only when they had nothing left to threaten did they negotiate. There is a reason there had not been any lengthy strikes for years.

Why do you think that only GM and Chrysler had problems and Ford didn't? What about Toyota or Honda of America?
All of those companies had comparable compensation packages but the others did fine.

Go look at the real reasons GM failed.

It's hard to survive in a cut throat business when you aren't selling what the consumer wants. Their business model and company leadership is what drove them into the grave.
 

The Man

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Saw this nut am getting ready to get to bed...will assemble documentation tomorrow and write you a post

You are missing a few things there tim...roughly 96 thousand North American GM workers...and 118 thousand retires on pension..thats 200 plus thousand people on payroll tim{and it was higher before Obama stepped in} not the 40 some odd thousand you mention..and my 70 bucks was a light estimate it is actually 73 bucks and some change{for the Union grunts}
technically we are both wrong if it makes you feel better as I was busy arguing with other liberals when I wrote that post and didnt include non unions wages{and failed to separate them}...you know the fuckers that make the big bucks/ }. {Which Obama had to beat them up as well}...but anyway I will dig it all up tomorrow..it was coming out close to 6,000 a car I do remember..For the union and non union salaries so the figure will be even higher yet than what I originally wrote.
I need to crash its 330 in the morning here

Just to let you know Tim I haven't forgot about you..Turns out Alien Allen is right and both me and your are wrong GM had already taken the bull by the horns and made tremendous headway with fighting the union..however the problem still existed of the pension problem which actually turns out to be 405000 retirees not the 112000 and 118000 we hear about..that latter 2 numbers is in regard to those retires that fall into group that were involved in negotiations and were not grandfathered in....GM didnt need a government takeover but did need a loan....A cushion essentially to coast over the costs of the transitions and buy out people to quit to secure future labor and pensions to a manageable level
The deeper I dig the worse it was for gm...for example in 2005 there were 335000 employees now add on 400000 plus retirees and you have close to three quarter million of people receiving checks for about 9 million cars made per year
Now there are a little over 200,000 employees this is a huge reduction in employees
Here is where the problem now lies...at least until the retirees die ...and the current union worker finish their time/ then retire and milk a pension/ then die
The current active UAW membership at GM, for example, is 48,000 members to 405,000 UAW GM retirees, making it nearly a 10-to-1 ratio of retirees to current working member
The problem is similar at Ford and Chrysler. At Ford, the retiree to active ratio is about 3.5 retirees to each active, and at Chrysler, there are almost four retirees to every active member.

http://www.uaw.org/articles/uaw-statement-retirees-and-2011-big-three-negotiations


I am going to continue researching this further as sources vary..the above is for the UAW site itself..which should satisfy anyone as far as source.


335000 employees in 2005

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fort...ormers/companies/biggest_employers/index.html
This essentially comes from fortune 500 which essentially cant be disputed as well


202000 employees in 2010 for gm
http://www.statista.com/statistics/239843/employees-of-general-motors/
If you look at the graph it says the source is GM

As we can see this is major employee reduction {about 40 percent}

Also new employees no longer make mega bucks..but common factory wages..{I dont remember the amount as I cant find the link again ..but it was about 14 bucks an hour I think} /no pension but 401 option

Back to 2005 with 9000000 cars and 335000 employees we can see there was alot of man hours involved per vehicle..also the union boys loved overtime and it was pretty standard as well ....but without the overtime it comes about to 80 hours per unit at 73 bucks old scale that comes out to 5840 dollars average per car...this doesn't not include the 405000 retirees pensions and health coverage for retiree and spouse which would greatly increase that figure further
 

The Man

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I just ran across this


1979 - GM's U.S. employment peaks at 618,365, making it the largest private employer in the country. Worldwide employment is 853,000
. Decade features sales decline, recession, Arab oil embargo and gains by Japanese automakers.


http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/09/a_brief_history_of_general_mot.html

As we can see above that is an astronomical amount of employees.....essentially union brats that dont want to work but get paind ..this eventually catches up with you via pensions..they now operate with less that a fourth of the employees of above

2007 - GM loses $38.7 billion, including $39 billion third-quarter charge for unused tax credits. It's the largest annual loss in auto industry history. GM reaches historic contract with United Auto Workers that shifts billions in retiree health care expenses to union-administered trust. Company agrees to pay $33.7 billion into trust. Contract also lets company to pay some new hires $14 per hour. U.S. market share is 23.7 percent. GM sells Allison Transmission to The Carlyle Group and Onex Corp. for $5.6 billion.

Above GM was already sick and tired of drowning due to the union the union had already bucked the union before Obama came along.
To make a long story short they were already taking care of the problem in the recent years
It still may take a decade or two to fully reap again...sadly it will take current union workers retiring then dieing to prosper as they should.
One can only guess what the retire level has been during other times.
The more articles I read there are several occurrences....sadly they should have grown balls decades ago...obviously in 79 someone had no balls.
Ford had actually resorted to violence with the bastards but lost ground in 41
 
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The Man

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Why do you think that only GM and Chrysler had problems and Ford didn't? What about Toyota or Honda of America?
All of those companies had comparable compensation packages but the others did fine.

Go look at the real reasons GM failed.

It's hard to survive in a cut throat business when you aren't selling what the consumer wants. Their business model and company leadership is what drove them into the grave.
Cut throat business lol
LOL...you may want to look at the history of gm...prior employee levels and retiree level

I am glad I paid attentions to AAs post and began to research the matter
 

The Man

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Do you support unions under any circumstance?

For non stationary jobs ..and not for the purpose of leverage but a convenience for all involved.
Do you really think an assembly grunt should be worth 70 bucks an hour{wages and benefits}
Its just a factory job..no more no less..worthy of little more than working at Pizza hut or MacDonalds
Can you imagine how high a burger would be with those wages...how about if the meat cutters made them wages..the truck drivers..the farmer..the people at the auction and soon that dollar burger would be 20 bucks.

If you think about it you already have a union...the govt
Overtime regulations
Regulations on breaks,
Wage regulations
Safety regulations
and so on.

Every time you liberals whine and get something increased..it only does one thing devalues the dollar
 
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