Rep. Dana Rohrabacher supports torture.

[Peter Parka]

Its sometimes seen as worse when America does it because we're supposed to be "civilized" and torture doesn't really clash well with th reputation of a first world country that everyone is supposed to look up to for moral guidance.

If we've supposed to look up to you for moral guidance then please shoot me now!:eek

 

[All Else Failed]

If we've supposed to look up to you for moral guidance then please shoot me now!:eek

Thats not my view, but its the view of some people who think America is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[IntruderLS1]

Thats not my view, but its the view of some people who think America is the best thing since sliced bread.

Well, you know what they say.... If you don't like it, you're free to leave. No machine guns holding you in.

Everybody wins that way. You're happier, and we're happier.

 

[All Else Failed]

Well, you know what they say.... If you don't like it, you're free to leave. No machine guns holding you in.

Everybody wins that way. You're happier, and we're happier.

So what, you don't like free speech? People have every right to complain and petition their governments for change. The mentality of "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!111!!!!ONE!1!" is incredibly ignorant to say when this country was founded on people who criticized the government.

:^/

 

[KNYTE]

It goes against international law and doesn't even work.

I'd like to point out that if torture "didn't even work" people wouldn't have been doing it for the last several thousand years.

 

[Peter Parka]

I'd like to point out that if torture "didn't even work" people wouldn't have been doing it for the last several thousand years.

Yeah, if terrorism didn't work the twin towers would still be there along with the lives of thousands of people, dosen't make it right though!

 

[KNYTE]

Yeah, if terrorism didn't work the twin towers would still be there along with the lives of thousands of people, dosen't make it right though!

I wasn't saying that I thought it was right, I was saying that there is substantial evidence to support that torture is in fact an effective method of getting information.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'd like to point out that if torture "didn't even work" people wouldn't have been doing it for the last several thousand years.

Torture is done for many reasons ,reasons that are usually not always to get information. Remember, the torturer isn't always interested in getting the word out of you...

 

[All Else Failed]

I wasn't saying that I thought it was right, I was saying that there is substantial evidence to support that torture is in fact an effective method of getting information.

Too bad it goes against international law in every respect.

Show me your proof that torture is a effective method of getting reliable info.

 

[Peter Parka]

Too bad it goes against international law in every respect.

Show me your proof that torture is a effective method of getting reliable info.

Yeah, torture was used in the Inquisions and like to get confessions out of innocent peole!

 

[dt3]

I'm still for it. I don't care what they do, because I don't associate with terrorists. If them torturing a terrorist saves even 1 life, then it's the right thing to do. A government that can't protect it's own citizens has no right to stay in place.

 

[KNYTE]

Torture is done for many reasons ,reasons that are usually not always to get information. Remember, the torturer isn't always interested in getting the word out of you...

Too bad it goes against international law in every respect.

Show me your proof that torture is a effective method of getting reliable info.

I'm not arguing that it is unethical or against current international law. The proof is the very simple fact that if torture was not an effective method of getting information people would not have continued to do it for just that reason for thousands of years.

What kind of proof were you expecting? Statistics?

Again, I don't personally agree with torture, I don't think I could ever bring myself to torture another human being, the one piece of your statement I was arguing was where you said it "didn't work", when in reality it obviously does.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm still for it. I don't care what they do, because I don't associate with terrorists. If them torturing a terrorist saves even 1 life, then it's the right thing to do. A government that can't protect it's own citizens has no right to stay in place.

So what if the person they are torturing really doesn't know anything? Should we just say "Oops! Our bad!" and get away with war crimes? What if its an innocent person they are torturing?

A government can protect their citizens without committing terrible acts and violating international law.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm not arguing that it is unethical or against current international law. The proof is the very simple fact that if torture was not an effective method of getting information people would not have continued to do it for just that reason for thousands of years.

What kind of proof were you expecting? Statistics?

Again, I don't personally agree with torture, I don't think I could ever bring myself to torture another human being, the one piece of your statement I was arguing was where you said it "didn't work", when in reality it obviously does.

Like I said. There are others reasons for torturing people besides getting "info" out of them. For pleasure, to make an example, to frighten people into obeying power etc etc.


Well, you said it worked. The onus of proof is on you.


As a person once said: "Humans should never be a means to and end"

 

[dt3]

So what if the person they are torturing really doesn't know anything? Should we just say "Oops! Our bad!" and get away with war crimes? What if its an innocent person they are torturing?

A government can protect their citizens without committing terrible acts and violating international law.

IMO, as long as we have reason to believe they're a terrorist or associate with terrorists, then I don't give a damn about them. They wanna fight with us, then that's fine with me. At least we don't cut off heads on television.

 

[All Else Failed]

IMO, as long as we have reason to believe they're a terrorist or associate with terrorists, then I don't give a damn about them. They wanna fight with us, then that's fine with me. At least we don't cut off heads on television.

So you're fine if totally innocent people are detained without a trial for an indefinite amount of time and tortured and possibly killed in the process? No offense man, but thats pretty sick.

Don't you see how illogical that is? Torture is basically guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. What ever happened to trying people in the court of law?

 

[dt3]

So you're fine if totally innocent people are detained without a trial for an indefinite amount of time and tortured and possibly killed in the process? No offense man, but thats pretty sick.

Don't you see how illogical that is? Torture is basically guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. What ever happened to trying people in the court of law?

As long as we have a reason to believe they know something, then none of that matters to me. These people don't rate the basic privileges granted to us in OUR Constitution. They're terrorists and murderers who target innocent civilians for no justifiable reason.

I've never been held in a secret prison, have you? I doubt it, because we don't aid, abet, or hang out with known terrorists. If someone does, then fuck em.

 

[All Else Failed]

As long as we have a reason to believe they know something, then none of that matters to me. These people don't rate the basic privileges granted to us in OUR Constitution. They're terrorists and murderers who target innocent civilians for no justifiable reason.

I've never been held in a secret prison, have you? I doubt it, because we don't aid, abet, or hang out with known terrorists. If someone does, then fuck em.

I cant believe that you are willing to throw away human life so flippantly. Innocent life too. What will you say to the families of the probably innocent people that are tortured and possibly killed? I want to know that.

Actually, if there is an enemy of the nation that is captured, we have used the legal process in the past to try and convict them.

You don't think the US terrorized people? You don't think our troops have killed innocent people intentionally? Its been documented that they have. Just because they have a American flag on their chests doesn't mean they are some good ol' boy thats 100% moral.


Its the principle that these laws are even on the books in a so called democracy! These laws are nothing short of fascist practices. The mentality of "Hey it doesn't' effect me! So why worry about it?" is dangerous. It DOES effect you, since they now have the power to arrest ANYONE now without reason and hold you without trial (which is granted to us in the bill of rights, and therefore this is HIGHLY unconstitutional) indefinitely. You think that is ok? Our own citizens are subject to a fascist document now.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin.

 

[dt3]

I cant believe that you are willing to throw away human life so flippantly. Innocent life too. What will you say to the families of the probably innocent people that are tortured and possibly killed? I want to know that.

Actually, if there is an enemy of the nation that is captured, we have used the legal process in the past to try and convict them.

You don't think the US terrorized people? You don't think our troops have killed innocent people intentionally? Its been documented that they have. Just because they have a American flag on their chests doesn't mean they are some good ol' boy thats 100% moral.


Its the principle that these laws are even on the books in a so called democracy! These laws are nothing short of fascist practices. The mentality of "Hey it doesn't' effect me! So why worry about it?" is dangerous. It DOES effect you, since they now have the power to arrest ANYONE now without reason and hold you without trial (which is granted to us in the bill of rights, and therefore this is HIGHLY unconstitutional) indefinitely. You think that is ok? Our own citizens are subject to a fascist document now.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin.

Then I guess me and Ol' Ben disagree. The safety of it's citizens should be the government's #1 concern. To avoid being held in a secret prison, I'm just going to go ahead and not do anything that could be misconstrued as terrorism. Shouldn't be too hard.

As for it being a fascist document, apparently somehow it made it through all the checks and balances of our government. Unless you disagree with the way the person you quoted helped set up our government, then I guess you'll just have to accept it.

And no, our troops are not 100% perfect, but I'm equally sure that the major crime to # of troops ratio is far lower than most any city in America

 

[Peter Parka]

I actually kind of agree with dt here. We get show footage of American troops kicking the crap out of some Iraqi kid but what you don't see is the Iraqi kid shooting RPGs at the troops. Its terrible that countries like this will use kids to fight but in defense of our troops, you don't know how it feels to have someone be a direct threat to kill you. I'm not saying that some of their behaviour isn't wrong, I'm just saying its instinct. If I managed to catch a kid who nearly blew me apart with an RPG, I'd probably beat the shit out of him! Don't be too hasty to judge the troops!