Random football musings thread

[Springsteen]

As I'm bored with very little football on at the moment I'll start this. Every now and then I'll post something about football, be it stats, fact, myths or just general thoughts about something.

I'll start with something that's commonly talked of in football, the European Hangover. This is when a team has a bad result immediately after playing in Europe, and especially after a good result. Let's go with last season's English Champions League participants.

Arsenal

Braga W 6-0. The Saturday after they drew 1-1 away with Sunderland
Partizan Belgrade W 3-1. The Sunday after they lost 2-0 away to Chelsea
Shakhtar Donestk W 5-1. The Sunday after they beat Manchester City away 3-0
Shakhtar Donestk L 1-2. The Sunday after they lost 0-1 at home to Newcastle
Braga L 0-2. The Saturday after they beat Aston Villa 4-2 away
Partzizan W 3-1. The Monday after they lost 0-1 away to Manchester United

So as you can see, a mixed bag so far for Arsenal.

Chelsea

MSK Zilina W 4-1. The Sunday after they beat Blackpool 4-0 at home
Marseille W 2-0. The Sunday after they beat Arsenal 2-0 at home
Spartak Moscow W 2-0. The Saturday after they beat Wolves 2-0 at home
Spartak Moscow W 4-1. The Sunday after they lose 2-0 to Liverpool away
MSK Zilina W 2-1. The Sunday after they drew 1-1 with Newcastle away
Marseille L 0-1. The Sunday after they drew to Tottenham 1-1 away

The deciding factor here seems to be Chelsea respond better playing at home after a European Game. 100% record.

Manchester United

Rangers D 0-0. The Sunday after they beat Liverpool 3-2 at home
Valencia W 1-0. The Saturday after they drew 0-0 away at Sunderland
Bursaspor W 1-0. The Sunday after they beat Stoke 2-1 away
Bursaspor W 3-0. The Saturday after they beat Wolves 2-1 at home
Rangers W 1-0. The Saturday after they beat Blackburn 7-1 at home
Valencia D 1-1. The Monday after they beat Arsenal 1-0 at home

So far Man United have only suffered minimal European hangover.

Tottenham Hotspur

Werder Bremen D 2-2. The Saturday after they beat Wolves 3-1 at home
Twente W 4-1. The Saturday after they beat Aston Villa 2-1 at home
Inter Milan L 4-3. The Saturday after they drew with Everton 1-1 at home
Inter Milan W 3-1. The Saturday after they lost 4-2 at Bolton
Werder Bremen W 3-0. The Sunday after they beat Liverpool at home 2-1
Twente D 3-3. The Sunday after they drew 1-1 at home to Chelsea

Initially Spurs responded well before losing at Bolton. We could attribute this to something I said earlier 'Especially after a good result', which beating Inter Milan was. It could also be the fact that this was Spurs' only away game after a European Game.

I'll do the knockout stages shortly.

 

[Springsteen]

Right the knockout stages. So far we've figured that Arsenal are mixed after European games, with no real deciding factor. Chelsea respond better playing at home after a European game. Man United have a 100% record after drawing in Europe. Tottenham have had home games in the League in their favour, with 5/6 of those games happening.

Anyway here's what happens in the nitty-gritty of the knockouts.

Arsenal

Barcelona W 2-1. The Sunday after they drew 1-1 away with Leyton Orient in the FA Cup
Barcelona L 1-3. The Saturday after they lost 2-0 away at Manchester United in the FA Cup

So Arsenal haven't won after the two Barcelona games. Albeit both Cup games were away.

Chelsea

Copenhagen W 2-0. They didn't play the weekend after.
Copenhagen D 0-0. The Sunday after they beat Manchester City 2-0 at home
Manchester United L 0-1. The Saturday after they beat Wigan 1-0 at home
Manchester United L 1-2. The Saturday after they beat West Brom 3-1 away

So Chelsea respond well to playing after and going out of Europe.

Manchester United

Marseille D 0-0. The Saturday after they beat Wigan 4-0 away.
Marseille W 2-1. The Saturday after they beat Bolton at home 1-0
Chelsea W 1-0. The Saturday after they beat Fulham 2-0 at home
Chelsea W 2-1. The Saturday after they lost 1-0 to Manchester City in the FA Cup
Schalke W 2-0. The Sunday after they lost 1-0 at Arsenal
Schalke W 4-1. The Sunday after they beat Chelsea 2-1.

So 4/6 wins after a European game.

Tottenham Hotspur

AC Milan W 1-0. They didn't play the weekend after
AC Milan D 0-0. No following game
Real Madrid L 0-4. The weekend after they beat Stoke 3-2
Real Madrid L 0-1. They didn't play the weekend after.

100% by default, though they won the only game they played afterwards at home.

 

[Springsteen]

For my next trick, here's what the top 4 sides games would have looked like had their top scorer not scored the goals he did. Let's start with the Champions, Manchester United. The actual scores are in brackets. I'll only do the games they scored in.

Newcaslte United W 2-0 (3-0)
West Ham W 2-0 (3-0)
Everton L 2-3 (3-3)
Liverpool L 0-2 (3-2)
Blackburn Rovers W 2-1 (7-1)
Sunderland D 0-0 (2-0)
Birmingham L 0-1 (1-1)
Birmingham W 2-0 (5-0)
Blackpool L 1-2 (3-2)
Bolton D 0-0 (1-0)
Fulham W 1-0 (2-0)

So without Berbatov's goals United would have been down 12 points.

Chelsea now who finished 2nd. And their top scorer was Florent Malouda.

West Brom W 4-0 (6-0)
Wigan W 5-0 (4-0)
Stoke City W 1-0 (2-0)
Blackpool W 2-0 (4-0)
Wolves W 1-0 (2-0)
Bolton D 0-0 (1-0)
Bolton W 3-0 (4-0)
Wigan D 0-0 (1-0)
Birmingham D 1-1 (3-1)
West Ham W 2-0 (3-0)

So Chelsea are only down 6 points.

Manchester City, and Carlos Tevez.

Liverpool W 1-0 (3-0)
Wigan W 1-0 (2-0)
Chelsea D 0-0 (1-0)
Newcastle United D 1-1 (2-1)
Blackpool L 1-2 (3-2)
Fulham W 2-1 (4-1)
Bolton D 0-0 (1-0)
Newcastle United W 2-1 (3-1)
Wolves L 2-3 (4-3)
Birmingham City L 1-2 (2-2)
West Brom D 0-0 (3-0)
Sunderland W 4-0 (5-0)
Stoke City W 1-0 (3-0)

Manchester City would be down 14 points.

Arsenal lastly, and Van Persie.

Birmingham City W 2-0 (3-0)
West Ham W 1-0 (3-0)
Wigan D 0-0 (3-0)
Newcaslte United L 2-4 (4-4)
Wolves D 0-0 (2-0)
West Brom L 1-2 (2-2)
Blackpool W 1-2 (1-3)
Liverpool L 0-1 (1-1)
Tottenham L 2-3 (3-3)
Bolton L 0-2 (1-2)
Stoke City L 0-3 (1-3
Aston Villa L 0-2 (1-2)
Fulham L 1-2 (2-2

So Arsenal lose 8 points.

Had this happened, Manchester United would have been on 68 points. Chelsea on 65. Man City on 57 and Arsenal on 63. Man United would still have won the League, Chelsea finishing second and Arsenal third, but Spurs would have moved to fourth, Liverpool to fith and Man City would have been down to 6th.

 

[Springsteen]

Here's another; The turns in Title races.

Often it's a pretty clear cut thing, a Title race, one team leads the way, couple of other teams chasing, may occasionally swap places along the way before a team wins the Title. However on other occasions a team might be leading by a long way, and the second place team looks to have no hope. Until a certain result changes things and eventually the trailing teams catch up and overtake and go on to win the Title. Let's talk about those times.

1995/96

The famous 'You'll never win anything with kids' like from Alan Hansen, referring to the kids from Manchester United after an opening day defeat to Aston Villa. But for a while the Newcastle team of the day, with stars such as Ginola, Asprilla and Ferdinand, looked to be sleepwalking to the Title. But certain results changed things. On December 27th 1995 the two United's met at Old Trafford, and with Manchester United having had a poor winter up to that point, Newcastle were in confident mood that they could get something at Old Trafford. However it wasn't to be as goals from Andy Cole and Roy Keane have United a priceless win. However before long Tottenham gave Man United a New Year's Day hammering at White Hart Lane and the gap was back out to 12 points. However in early March, and with recent slip ups in mind, Newcastle entertained Man United at St James' Park. Man United again won, 1-0, to reduce the gap to a single point. United never looked back. After Kevin Keegan's outburst on live TV it appeared he had cracked, and so had Newcastle. Manchester United eventually won the Title on the last day by 4 points.

1997/98

Arsene Wenger's first full season in charge at Arsenal proved to be a memorable one. But early in the season it appeared there wouldn't even be a Title challenge, with Man United playing some of their greatest football, putting 7 past Barnsley, 6 past Sheffield Wednesday, 5 past Wimbledon and 4 past Blackburn. The first meeting occured in early November and it was a game Arsenal really had to win. They did go into an early 2-0 lead thanks to Nicolas Anelka and Patrick Vieira. United however showed their fighting qualities and bounced back to 2-2 with two Sheringham goals. However a late David Platt header gave Arsenal victory. But United quickly bounced back, winning 6 on the spin. However January proved to be a turning point for United, losing away at Southampton before a humiliating home loss to Leicester City and that was followed by a home draw with Bolton. Arsenal meanwhile were quietly gathering momentum but when United beat Chelsea in late February, the bookies paid out. However the twist was yet to come. In early March United lost 2-0 away to Sheffield Wednesday and then drew away at West Ham, while Arsenal won their two. The meeting was set for March 14th. Arsenal won it 1-0 thanks to Marc Overmars. The gap remained at 9 points but Arsenal had games in hand and, more importantly, momentum. In April United drew with both Liverpool and Newcaslte at home and on the same weekend as United won handsomely at Crystal Palace, Arsenal went top with victory over Newcastle. The Title was theirs when they beat Everton in early May. United went on to beat Leeds and Barnsley in their last two games, but the Title was already gone.

2002/03

The media darlings Arsenal were playing some of the greatest football ever seen. They were hammering teams left and right and nobody could seem to stop them. Until Wayne Rooney came along. In late October a game between Everton and Arsenal was locked at 1-1 going into stoppage time, enter the scene Wayne Rooney, who turned at the edge of the box and fired in a screamer which beat David Seaman all ends up. Arsenal then lost form for a week or two, losing also to Blackburn the following week. Up until this point Man United, Arsenal's would be challengers had had an indifferent start, losing to Leeds and Bolton as well as dropping points to Sunderland and Aston Villa. The media still favoured Arsenal. After a Manchester Derby defeat in early November the media were lambasting Ferguson for not buying properly in the Summer and saying the team would fall from grace sooner rather than later. It pointed to 3 games in the winter which they predicted United would lose and never be seen again. They won all three, first at home to Newcastle 5-3, then at Liverpool 2-1 before blowing Arsenal out of the water with a 2-0 victory. Flash forward to March and Arsenal are still top of the tree, unti the Spring. On March 15th United beat Aston Villa 1-0 at Villa Park, the same day Blackburn do United a favour by beating Arsenal 2-0. A week later United went top for 24 hours after beating Fulham at Old Trafford. Arsenal did regain top spot a day later with a narrow win over Everton, but it was too late, United sensed blood. In early April United beat Liverpool 4-0, and Arsenal could only draw at Villa Park. Arsenal led on goal difference. Something United levelled the week after with a 6-2 away win at Newcastle. Both sides won a week later but it was to be the last weekend in April which would decide the destiny of the Title. Firstly Arsenal threw away a two goal lead at Bolton which led to United taking a 4 point lead when they beat Tottenham a day later. It was decided on the first weekend of May when United first beat Charlton 4-1 at Old Trafford and Arsenal lost 3-2 at home to Leeds the day after. The comeback was complete.

 

[Peter Parka]

Frank Lampard is a fat cunt!

 

[Springsteen]

Premier League nicknames

Ok some are obvious...like Liverpool are called the reds because, well, they wear red. Fulham are called The Cottagers because they play at Craven Cottage and Blackburn Rovers are perhaps unimaginatively named Rovers. But there are stories to other nicknames. Let's start with Arsenal

They are known as the Gunners because the club was formed by workers at a Royal Arsenal in Woolwich. Hence the name Gunners.

Bolton are known as the Trotters. The reason is when they started they were formed by a Church. Years later they had a disagreement with the local vicar they disbanded associations with the church and were without a home. In the 18 years between that and finding Burnden Park they had a number of homes. One of which was adjacent to a pig farm, and when the ball went into the pig pens, the players had to trot into it to retrieve the ball, over 100 years later and they are still known as the Trotters.

Everton are the Toffee's. There are a couple of stories doing the rounds here. The first is years ago there was a toffee shop near Goodison park and the owner of said shop sold Everton toffee, thus making her a mascot of the club. The other, less plausible, reason is that at the time in Liverpool there were a lot or Irish people, who had the nickname toffee's, thus the nickname originated from that. Whichever story you believe, the name stuck like, well, toffee.

Manchester United are known as the Red Devils. First the false story. Years ago they were known as Newton Heath, and were known as the Heathens. presumably a play on words, regardless when they became Manchester United the named changed to the Red Devils. People believed that without realising that until the 1960's Manchester United's badge didn't actually have a devil on it. Here's the real story. Years before Salford City Reds toured France and did well, the French press christened them as devils. As the name stuck Sir Matt Busby noticed it and liked it and nicknamed Manchester United the Red Devils. So that's where the nickname comes from.

Norwich City are nicknamed the Canaries. Years ago the miners in Norwich used to send Canaries down the mines to check for poisonous gases. If they fainted and died they knew there were gases. That's where the name originates.

Stoke City are called the Potters thanks to the City's pottery industry.

Sunderland's black cats nickname has a couple of stories attached.

Around the early 1800s, the southern side of the River Wear contained four gun batteries, which guarded the river mouth during the Napoleonic wars. In 1805, the battery was manned by local militia, the Sunderland loyal volenteers one of whom was a cooper by trade named Joshua Dunn. He was said to have "fled from the howling of an approaching black cat, convinced by the influence of the full moon and a warming dram or two that it was the devil incarnate". From that point onwards the John Paul Jones Battery was known as the Black Cat Battery.



A Sunderland supporter, Billy Morris, took a black cat in his top pocket as a good luck charm to the 1937 FA Cup final in which Sunderland brought home the trophy for the first time. During the 1960s a black cat lived in Roker Park and was fed and watered by the football club. Since the 1960s the emblem of the Sunderland A.F.C. Supporters Association has been a black cat.

Here's one of the reasons for West Brom being called The Baggies.

"In its early days The Hawthorns had only two entrances, one behind each goal. On match days the gatekeepers would gather up the takings at each end and be escorted by policmen along the sides of the pitch to the centre line where their was a small office under the stand. The gate money, mostly in pennies, amounted to a considerable sum and was carried in large cloth bags. It wasn't long before some wag in the crowd started shouting "here come the bag men!" at their appearance in front of the main stand, and this developed into a chant of "here come the Baggies!", giving the team its unnofficial nickname"

​

 

[Sparkey Duck]

Newcastle Utd are called the magpies as to this day it is illegal to attend the match without a porn-MAG and a PIE

 

[Springsteen]

Relegation battles

Well, only 4 because that's all I can be bothered to do.

2004/05

Teams involved - West Brom, Norwich City, Southampton and Crystal Palace

Going into the final day on 15th may not one of the sides in the bottom 4 were assured of safety, 3 had to go down while 1 would stay up. Norwich City were the team in the much sought after 17th spot and they only had to beat Fulham away to do it, however they lost 6-0. So it came down to the other 3, Southampton were the first in the hotseat when they took the lead against Manchester United, however United soon equalised through Darren Fletcher. Crystal Palace meanwhile were beating their local rivals Charlton 2-1 at The Valley and when Southampton went 2-1 down, they were staying up. However West Brom were also winning, 2-0 at home against Portsmouth, but if Palace could hold on they would stay up, however with 8 minutes to go Charlton equalised and that was the way it stayed. In the end West Brom stayed up with their win and the others all losing. The greatest of great escapes was complete.

2006/07

Teams involved - Wigan Athletic, West Ham and Sheffield United

On the final day Sheffield United and Wigan met at Bramhall Lane. Wigan knew that they had to win to stay up, while a draw would do for Sheffield United. West Ham, due to an inferior goal difference, had to hope for a point or better at Manchester United, or hope that Sheffield United beat Wigan. West Ham looked to be in for a battering at old Trafford with shot after shot on their goal but they kept them out, and on the stroke of half time they took the lead through Carlos Tevez, whose goals had proved so crucial to West Ham in the run in. Meanwhile the game at Bramhall lane was tied at 1-1 and Sheffield United were staying up, but then Wigan won a penalty and former United player David Unsworth stepped up and struck it home. And with West Ham still winning at old Trafford, the Blades were down. In the end Sheffield United went down on goal difference to Wigan while West Ham amazingly finished 16th, ahead of Fulham.

2008/09

Teams involved - Newcastle United, Sunderland, Middlesbrough and Hull City

A fascinating relegation battle was taken to the last day. Two from those four would go down. Newcastle United travelled to Aston Villa, Sunderland hosted Chelsea, Middlesbrough travelled to West Ham while Hull City hosted Manchester United. Sunderland appeared to be in the least danger, knowing that both Hull and Newcastle had to win and them to lose for them to go down. While Middlesbrough needed a big win to stay up and hope other results went their way. Middlesbrough lost at West Ham and went down. Darron Gibson gave Manchester United the lead at Hull City and at that point Hull were down because Newcastle were drawing with Aston Villa, however an own goal from Damien Duff saw to that and Newcastle were in trouble. Sunderland eventually lost to Cgelsea but it all became academic when other scores stayed the same. Hull City, despite losing 1-0, stayed up thanks to Newcastle's defeat.

2010/11

Teams involved - Blackpool, Blackburn Rovers, Birmingham City, Wolves and Wigan Atletic

On the final day none of these teams were safe and it proved to be quite an afternoon. Blackburn and Wolves knew that victory for either in their head to head would keep them up, while Blackpool faced a daunting trip to Old Trafford, Wigan travelled to Stoke and Birmingham travelled to Tottenham. In the end Blackburn assured themselves of safety with a 3-2 win at Wolves. Blackpool lost 4-2 at Manchester United despite taking a 2-1 lead at one point. Wigan completed a great escape again with a win at Stoke which meant that Birmingham were safe even with a defeat at Spurs, but the twist was yet to come, when Wolves narrowed their deficit to 3-2 they went ahead on goal difference so Birmingham had to score, they didn't and depite losing, Wolves stayed up by one goal. Blackpool went down with the highest goals scored tally by a relegated team in Premier League history.

 

[Unicorn Guild]

You should do one about the biggest comebacks in a single match (as opposed to the biggest comebacks of the season in terms of table points). For instance, a team down 3 or 4 goals by the first half comes back for a big win. I would fancy watching a few of those matches again

 

[Peter Parka]

You should do one about the biggest comebacks in a single match (as opposed to the biggest comebacks of the season in terms of table points). For instance, a team down 3 or 4 goals by the first half comes back for a big win. I would fancy watching a few of those matches again

Remember a second tier match about 15 - 20 years ago involving QPR when one team were winning 3-0 with 3 minutes left and ended up losing 4-3.
The beauty of the game! Can't stand those people who leave early, literally anything can happen, however unlikely it seems.

 

[Springsteen]

Some comebacks

Newcastle 4-4 Arsenal - February 2010

Newcastle were trailing 4-0 to Arsenal at half time in this one and fans were leaving. Goals from Theo Walcott and Johan Djorou gave Arsenal a 2-0 lead by the third minute, and when Robin Van perise's double made it 4-0, all hope seemed lost. However Newcastle fought back and Joey Barton scored what looked like being a consolation from the penalty spot in the 68th minute. Leon Best halved the deficit with 15 minutes to go and when Barton scored another penalty with 7 minutes to go it seemed the impossible comeback was on. And indeed it was complete with a minute to go when Tiote hammered the ball home.

Liverpool 3-3 AC Milan - May 2005

When Hernan Crespo put Milan 3-0 up on the stroke of half time this game seemed dead and buried. Earlier goals from Paulo Maldini and Crespo again had started the rout. But Liverpool's hopes were revived when Steven Gerrard headed in a cross to make it 3-1. Vladimir Smicer then made it 3-2 before Xabi Alonso's penalty was saved. However Alonso got to the rebound first and made it 3-3. All this in a seven minute period in the second half. In extra time Jerzy Dudek made a great save from Andriy Shevchenko and the game went to penalties, which Liverpool won to win their 5th European Cup.

Deportivo 4-0 AC Milan - April 2004

A year before losing the European Cup final in dreadful circumstances Milan were on the end of another almighty comeback at the hands of former Spanish Champions Deportivo. Milan held a 4-1 lead from the first leg a week earlier and must have thoguht it was enough, but the away goal proved crucial. Depor shocked their Italian counterparts by racing into a 3-0 lead within the first 45 minutes. It was started by the man who had given Depor the lead in the San Siro in the first leg, Walter Pandiani who beat Dida. It was 2-0 10 minutes before half time when Juan Carlos Valeron took advantage of a Dida slip and headed home. It was 3-0 on half when Luque took advantage of more slack defending and beat Dida. As it stood Deportivo were going through on away goals but they made sure of it when Fran made it 4-0. The comeback was complete.

Tottenham Hotspur 3-4 Manchester City - February 2004

Another second half job. City were reduced to 10 men in the half time period when Joey Barton saw red, and thanks to first half goals from Ledley King, Robbie Keane and Christian Ziege, were 3-0 down at the break. However City came back, it was started by Silvain Distin on 48 minutes before Paul Bosvelt made it 3-2, and Spurs must have feared the worst. They had a right to because Shawn Wright Phillips then equalised before a late header from Jon Macken completed one of the greatest FA Cup comebacks ever.

Tottenham Hotspur 3-5 Manchester United - September 2001

Poor Spurs. Leading 3-0 at half time against the Champions and they though they were in heaven. First half goals from Dean Richards, Christian Ziege and Les Ferdinand saw to it that Fergie's hairdryer was in full force at half time, and it had the desired effect. With a minute of the second half Andy Cole headed United back into the game and Laurent Blanc then added a second. United equalised from Ruud Van Nistelrooy before going into an amazing 4-3 lead through Juan Sebastian Veron. The comeback had it's cherry on the top when David Beckham curled a shot into the top corner from the edge of the area. Poor Spurs.

 

[Springsteen]

Footballer lookalikes.

Here's some.

Rafael Da Silva

Fabio Da Silva



Really similar.

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A Chameleon



Real Madrid player Mesut Ozil

 

[Peter Parka]

 

[Unicorn Guild]

Nice list of comebacks, thanks for that.

I'm short on ideas today, but how about...most detrimental own goals of all time? Or the most detrimental calls by a referee of all time.

Something "of all time" haha

 

[Springsteen]

Digging this up, and let's talk about Champions League retention. It's actually never happened. Since the Champions League (The old European Cup) was formed in 1992 the Champions of the previous year has never ever retained it, but let's see how that Champion has fared in their defending year.

1993/94 - Marseille

They were actually relegated from the French League in 1993 for match fixing so they could have more time to prepare for the Champions League final, so never got to defend it.

1994/95 - AC Milan

They reached the final again in 1995 but lost 1-0 to Ajax.

1995/96 - Ajax

They lost to Juventus on penalties after a 1-1 draw.

1996/97 - Juventus

Reached the final again, but lost to surprise finalists Borussia Dortmund 3-1.

1997/98 - Borussia Dortmund

Dortmund reached the semi final in their defending year but lost to the eventual winners, Real Madrid.

1998/99 - Real Madrid

Defeated by Dynamo Kiev in the quarter finals.

1999/00 - Manchester United

Eliminated by Real Madrid in the quarter final after a 3-2 loss on aggregate.

2000/01 - Real Madrid

Lost to Bayern Munich in the semi finals.

2001/02 - Bayern Munich

Real Madrid gained revenge here, knocking out Bayern in the quarter finals.

2002/03 - Real Madrid

Knocked out by eventual runners up Juventus in the semi final.

2003/04 - AC Milan

Knocked out by Deportivo 5-4 in the quarter finals after winning the first leg 4-1.

2004/05 - FC Porto

Went out to Inter Milan in the second round.

2005/06 - Liverpool

Knocked out by Benfica in the second round.

2006/07 - Barcelona

Liverpool knocked them out in the second round.

2007/08 - AC Milan

Knocked out by Arsenal in the quarter finals.

2008/09 - Manchester United

Lost 2-0 in the final to Barcelona

2009/10 - Barcelona

Lost 3-2 in the semi finals to Inter Milan

2010/11 - Inter Milan

Lost 7-3 on aggregate to Schalke 04.