Progressive Taxation Makes Economic Sense

[Codrus]

Re: dave johnson is a name u should know on this topic. A giant in the field

A giant?!? He's a blogger. Regardless of his ideas, I'd hardly call a blogger a giant in any field ... except that of blogging.

Cod-damnit ...don't tell me that blogging is a field,.....thats like making shaving a college course ..Gees.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: dave johnson is a name u should know on this topic. A giant in the field

A giant?!? He's a blogger. Regardless of his ideas, I'd hardly call a blogger a giant in any field ... except that of blogging.

More like a giant liberal tool when he whines about paying back the Regan/Bush debt.

And dismissing what Obama has done in that regard. Which makes earlier debt look like chump change.

We get nowhere when people think only one side is to blame.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Re: dave johnson is a name u should know on this topic. A giant in the field

We get nowhere when people think only one side is to blame.

You mean like conservobots that constantly blame Obama for the culmination of 30+ years of supply side economics?

 

[Accountable]

Yes, among others.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: dave johnson is a name u should know on this topic. A giant in the field

You mean like conservobots that constantly blame Obama for the culmination of 30+ years of supply side economics?

ah but it also took democrat enablers

something you seem to dismiss

 

[Johnfromokc]

Re: dave johnson is a name u should know on this topic. A giant in the field

ah but it also took democrat enablers

something you seem to dismiss

No - seems you tend to dismiss the conservative culprits. I've always said both were involved - but the right makes no bones about fucking over the rest of us in favor of the corporate and banking oligarchy. There's a reason we borrowed all that money to pay for the wars while lowering taxes on America's richest. They got the profits AND the finance charges. And we got the bill.

And we quibble amongst ourselves over universal health care and other issues that would improve the lives of 90% of Americans. How fucking stupid is it for working class Americans to believe that the rich should not actually pay the same tax rates we do? Motherfuckers like Mitt Romney fuck over working class people by bankrupting companies that results in $$$Billions in profit for the already rich and some middle and working class people defend that shit?

Watching these Republican asshats campaign for president makes me ill, and watching the ignorant working class people shill for them makes me want to puke. How did so many people lose their common sense? Unfuckingbelievable.

 

[Accountable]

stop changing the frickin' subject line!

How fucking stupid is it for working class Americans to believe that the rich should not actually pay the same tax rates we do?

Huh? I thought you were pushing for progressive taxation.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

Huh? I thought you were pushing for progressive taxation.

You're being facetious......right? If not - please put your common sense hat on.

 

[Codrus]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

......- please put your common sense hat on.

I used to have one of those , I lost it out of the back/ of a pickup doing 50 when I scaled the side to scare the Shit out of the passenger:eek

 

[Accountable]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

You're being facetious......right? If not - please put your common sense hat on.

You don't mean to say that 90% income tax is the same tax rate as 15%, do you?? I have no problem at all with the rich paying the same rate as we do, but that's not what you've been pushing in this thread.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

You don't mean to say that 90% income tax is the same tax rate as 15%, do you?? I have no problem at all with the rich paying the same rate as we do, but that's not what you've been pushing in this thread.

We working class folk pay the progressive rate for our productive labor. Oligarchs like Romney do not - they get over on the system with the capital gains tax laws they lobbied our elected leaders to get.

It is morally wrong for people like that to not pay proportionally for the infractructure that allowed them to get rich in the first place.

It amazes me how you think it is right for a family making $50,000 to pay the same tax rate as a family earning $5,000,000. You been smoking too much right wing weed my friend.

 

[Accountable]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

How fucking stupid is it for working class Americans to believe that the rich should not actually pay the same tax rates we do?

It amazes me how you think it is right for a family making $50,000 to pay the same tax rate as a family earning $5,000,000. You been smoking too much right wing weed my friend.

John, I think John has a point. How would you respond?

 

[Johnfromokc]

Re: stop changing the frickin' subject line!

John, I think John has a point. How would you respond?

You leave your common sense at the keyboard Acc. But I'll go ahead and spell it out for the readers who might be confused by your conservo-libertarian koolaid.

So here's your way:

Family # 1 has 4 dependents and an annual AGI of $50,000 pays a tax of 15% which equals $7,500 plus whatever state taxes plus social Security and Medicare tax of $3,825 leaving this family $38,675 to live on. That's $3,223 per month to pay for rent/mortgage, vehicle expenses medical care, food, etc.

Family # 2 has 4 dependents and an annual AGI of $500,000. They pay $75,000 in federal tax and Social Security taxes on the first $106,800, but zero SS tax on the rest - $6,622 SS and $7,250 in Medicare tax. This family has $411,128 left to live on. That's $34,261 per month.

So family # 2 has a monthly income of of nearly the ANNUAL income of family # 1.

And you think this is moral and reasonable?

Lets do it my way. Family # 1 remains the same. Family # 2 simply pays the Clinton era progressive tax rates.

From the 1995 tax schedule:

http://www.unclefed.com/IRS-Forms/taxtables/1995_i1040trs.pdf

AGI $500,000

On the first $256,500, the tax would be $77,263 + 39.6% for the amount over $256,500 which is $243,500 x 39.6% = $96,426.

Total 1995 tax on $500,000 AGI = $173,689. This leaves family # 2 with $326,311 or $27,193 per month to live on.

So who is carrying the greatest economic stress Acc? The family who has to live on $3,233 per month? Or the family who lives on $27,193 per month?

And here's a scenario for ya. The $500,000 per year family you champion? Even though they are currently paying the lowest tax in our life times, decides to close the United States business operation and move it to China and channel their capital gains through the Camen Islands to avoid that opressive 15% capital gains tax rate their lobbyists scored for them.

Tell me Acc - why do you feel sorry for the richest in America and advocate against your families own best interests??

 

[Accountable]

I'm not "championing" anything. You said we should have a progressive income tax, then said it's stupid that everyone doesn't pay the same rate, then said paying the same rate is wrong.

Either someone's stolen your logon or you're being schizophrenic.

I know your stance; I was just ribbing you for your misstatement. I've said before that all income should be taxed at the same rate. Doing so will increase revenue enough that we would be able to lower the overall rate. That's both fair and helps lower-income people. I'm just not into penalizing success any more than I'm into gov't subsidies for the rich.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I'm not "championing" anything. You said we should have a progressive income tax, then said it's stupid that everyone doesn't pay the same rate, then said paying the same rate is wrong.

Either someone's stolen your logon or you're being schizophrenic.

I know your stance; I was just ribbing you for your misstatement. I've said before that all income should be taxed at the same rate. Doing so will increase revenue enough that we would be able to lower the overall rate. That's both fair and helps lower-income people. I'm just not into penalizing success any more than I'm into gov't subsidies for the rich.

Any alleged "misstatement" is a result of your convoluted conservo-libertarian thinking.

The graph is clear in its meaning to everyone but you.

 

[Accountable]

Any alleged "misstatement" is a result of your convoluted conservo-libertarian thinking.

I quoted you directly!! :24:

How fucking stupid is it for working class Americans to believe that the rich should not actually pay the same tax rates we do?

It amazes me how you think it is right for a family making $50,000 to pay the same tax rate as a family earning $5,000,000. You been smoking too much right wing weed my friend.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I quoted you directly!! :24:

Are you really that fucking dense? WE - the working class wage earners - pay a fucking progressive rate. The wealthiest pay the 15% flat capital gains rate.

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

 

[Accountable]

Are you really that fucking dense? WE - the working class wage earners - pay a fucking progressive rate. The wealthiest pay the 15% flat capital gains rate.

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

It's not difficult at all. I'm just showing two opposing statements you wrote. That's it. Nothing more. Written in good fun. Lighten the fuck up. :coffee

 

[Codrus]

Are you really that fucking dense? WE - the working class wage earners - pay a fucking progressive rate. The wealthiest pay the 15% flat capital gains rate.

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

I'm just curious,..do you have any investments?.....I do, and I don't pay anything on dividends /capital gains until I sell ...then its 15 to 35% tax depending on the type, you also have a foreign tax on some.....now if you could set it up so you only paid 15% across the board and still made money .....wouldn't you?

To me ...that's just smart money.

 

[Johnfromokc]

It's not difficult at all. I'm just showing two opposing statements you wrote. That's it. Nothing more. Written in good fun. Lighten the fuck up. :coffee

Take your own advice and lighten the fuck up instead of going on about some silly shit you think is clever.

I'm just curious,..do you have any investments?.....I do, and I don't pay anything on dividends /capital gains until I sell ...then its 15 to 35% tax depending on the type, you also have a foreign tax on some.....now if you could set it up so you only paid 15% across the board and still made money .....wouldn't you?

Cod, I do indeed have investments - been investing since I was 22. I have 401K, SEP IRA and Regular IRA's. I'd be delighted indeed if I only had to pay a 15% tax rate when it comes time to withdraw during my retirement.

Lets be clear on what I am talking about. You & me are wage earners. We pay the full progressive tax rates on our income. In my previous business ventures, my profits were taxed as ordinary income. When we retire, the money we invested in tax deferred accounts will be taxed as ordinary income. That's the way it works for 90% of America.

Now lets talk about people like corporate COE's that recieve most of their compensation from stock options, or people who make their living from investment income. The law is such that these people avoid the progressive tax by disguising earned income as capital gains. While you and I pay up to 35% of our income in taxes, they pay 15% and often less.

When times get tough, as they are now, it is the producing wage earners and small businesses that are told we must "sacrifice". Any discussion of asking the wealthy to sacrifice alongside us is labeled "wealth envy" or the dreaded "Socialism".

All I want to see is that these wealthy people pitch in in proportion to their benefits from our infrastructure. Here is a link to Australia's tax system. I think it is the most fair and balanced system in the world today and worthy of emulation:

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?doc=/content/12333.htm

They have universal health care, living wage laws, mandatory vacation times and less than 5% unemployment. Compare that to the United States. Australians have sense enough to vote for their own best interests - unlike so many americans that kiss the ass of the oligarchy in the delusion they will someday be invited to join their club.