Ponder this one

[cage]

No it will not move.

 

[OUZBnd]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Well I have to disagree with PhillyBlunt474 on the friction part.

According to Newton's first law (inertia or an object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by and outside force)
If a wheel touching the ground had no friction, then you could start a car rolling 10 mph on a flat plain and it will continue to roll at 10mph until the friction from the air stopped it. But this isn't true, rubber wheels contacting the ground creates a lot of friction. There are two main types of friction concerning your tires, Static friction and Rolling resistance. Static friction is the friction between the tire and the road, without it, the tire would just slide across the road and never turn when pushed. Rolling resistance is the friction of the sidewall compression, and tread compression of the tire. In your car "rolling resistance" accounts for about 15% of the total stopping resistance. (overcoming inertia is responsible for about 35% of the vehicle's resistance. Driveline friction is about 45%; air drag is about 5%) That my boy is a hell of a lot of resistance (friction) there. And it gets greater as the load increases (ie. a jet)

Now back to the original problem of the moving runway. The faster the plane moves, the faster the belt moves to compensate. This would create speeds on the tires much greater than the tires and wheel bearings were designed to handle. If they didn't fail under the extreme temperatures of heat generated by the friction of the rotating tires, they would at least put a hell of a strain on the foward momentum of the plane.

I still believe the plane would lift off once it accelerated enough, but I think it will take much more power than normal to reach that speed and you may end up without functioning tires to land with.

I think you are underestimating the durability of the wheels. The wheels would have to spin twice as fast for the plan to take off, thats obvious. All machines are designed with a safety factor. More precarious machines are designed with a higher safety factor. A safety factor is for situations like these. The wheels are designed lets say with a safety factor of 3, i cant recall what the safety factor airlines use, but its relatively high. This means the wheels are designed not to fail unless the load exceeds three times the normal load of the wheel. anyway, just some insight

 

[Tim]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

I think you are underestimating the durability of the wheels. The wheels would have to spin twice as fast for the plan to take off, thats obvious. All machines are designed with a safety factor. More precarious machines are designed with a higher safety factor. A safety factor is for situations like these. The wheels are designed lets say with a safety factor of 3, i cant recall what the safety factor airlines use, but its relatively high. This means the wheels are designed not to fail unless the load exceeds three times the normal load of the wheel. anyway, just some insight

You are right about that. I just reread the question and the belt matches the speed but in the opposite direction, so the wheels would be spinning only 2X the speed of the plane.

I had thought that the belt would continue to spin exponentially faster to try to keep the plane motionless, never matching pace but creating some wild speeds.

 

[Blackwater_GT]

Counter balancing.
Or the force of one object aginst another force will negate the effect.
Unless they run head on into each other then its a friccking explosion.

 

[Tim]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Counter balancing.
Or the force of one object aginst another force will negate the effect.
Unless they run head on into each other then its a friccking explosion.

:dunno

 

[Blackwater_GT]

Hey now it's my theory and I'm sticking with it.

 

[ProjectMayhem]

I say the plane just does a 180 degree turn and lets the conveyor belt take it away!

 

[Ryum]

Think about this

you're on a train that is going ALL but 5 mph slower than the speed of light

if you are standing in that train and you run 6 mph in the direction the train is moving did you break the speed of light?

 

[rrj_in]

y doesnt someone simply try it on a conveyer belt with a remote operated toy plane.

 

[KaB]

i dunno bout a jet but i would guess that it would work teh same... a plane moves due to the force of the wind over the wings.. well to be exact it moves forward due to teh engine up due to wings. the wheels of the plane could get going damn fast but if the body of the plane its self was not moving it would not take off the ground

the oil in the wheel berrings has nothing to do with it.. the question of if it will take off or not is simply about lift what is giving the plane lift if its ability to move forward is taken away

and phillyblunt that was an awful good explination.. a heaping load of shit but a good one... well maybe not

 

[lemon]

philly and tim

smart people

but

2 things:

philly - the plane had to get on the belt in the first place, therefore it has to have the capability to get off. otherwise, it is useless.

tim- the weight of the plane on such conveyor belt would cause the conveyor belt to fail before the bearings inside the wheels of the plane get a chance to fail.

on top of that, the plane will move no matter what, because of the time lapse of the conveyor belt determining how fast the plane's wheels are going, which, if the plane is under constant acceleration, the conveyor belt will remain still, and therefore the plane will be able to take off :tard

 

[OUZBnd]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

philly and tim

smart people

but

2 things:

philly - the plane had to get on the belt in the first place, therefore it has to have the capability to get off. otherwise, it is useless.

tim- the weight of the plane on such conveyor belt would cause the conveyor belt to fail before the bearings inside the wheels of the plane get a chance to fail.

on top of that, the plane will move no matter what, because of the time lapse of the conveyor belt determining how fast the plane's wheels are going, which, if the plane is under constant acceleration, the conveyor belt will remain still, and therefore the plane will be able to take off :tard

how can you guys honestly have any idea what the conveyor would do. There has never been a conveyor belt built for a plane to get on, so there really is no conclusion as to what it would do. And i'm sure if someone were to build this experiment, they sure as hell would build it so the conveyor didn;t fail. You're looking at all the wrong things and digging way to deep into this one. The bottom line is, the planes wheels are simple there as a "roller" while the engines propell it. In other words, the question breaks down to this "Would a plane take off if you gave it enough room?" You can take the whole conveyor out of the question, then the answer is an obvious "yes".

 

[OUZBnd]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Think about this

you're on a train that is going ALL but 5 mph slower than the speed of light

if you are standing in that train and you run 6 mph in the direction the train is moving did you break the speed of light?

According to einstien's theory of relativity, nothing can be going faster than the speed of light, thus something must give. The man could walk as fast as he capble on the train (because it's all relative to the environment he is in), but when you add the speeds together you cant just add (speed of light-5) + 6. There's some equation for this, but i dont remember off hand what it is. So no, the man could not go faster than the speed of light applying einstiens theory.

 

[StangMang]

 

[Tim]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Think about this

you're on a train that is going ALL but 5 mph slower than the speed of light

if you are standing in that train and you run 6 mph in the direction the train is moving did you break the speed of light?

According to einstien's theory of relativity, nothing can be going faster than the speed of light, thus something must give. The man could walk as fast as he capble on the train (because it's all relative to the environment he is in), but when you add the speeds together you cant just add (speed of light-5) + 6. There's some equation for this, but i dont remember off hand what it is. So no, the man could not go faster than the speed of light applying einstiens theory.

As you speed up, time slows down. This is part of the theory of reletivity. Why is this important you may ask... well consider a very fast rocketship traveling through space, to propell itself it burns fuel at a very fast rate providing thrust. Well as the speed of the rocketship aproaches the speed of light, the slowing of time would have slowed the burn of the fuel and the rocket wouldn't be able to maintain its acceleration. At the speed of light, time stands still so the burning of fuel would have stopped altogether. So this would prevent the rocketship from ever reaching the speed of light. I guess you can apply the same thing to the train. as the man tried to run fast enough, time would slow him to the point of never reaching the speed of light.
This is much like the event horizon in a black hole. It's the point where the gravity accelerates you to the speed of light as you get pulled into the black hole. It is this point that time will stand still and you stop (at least to observers) . It's pretty freaky stuff, if you ever get the chance to read about it, I suggest you do. Good stuff.

 

[OUZBnd]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Think about this

you're on a train that is going ALL but 5 mph slower than the speed of light

if you are standing in that train and you run 6 mph in the direction the train is moving did you break the speed of light?

According to einstien's theory of relativity, nothing can be going faster than the speed of light, thus something must give. The man could walk as fast as he capble on the train (because it's all relative to the environment he is in), but when you add the speeds together you cant just add (speed of light-5) + 6. There's some equation for this, but i dont remember off hand what it is. So no, the man could not go faster than the speed of light applying einstiens theory.

As you speed up, time slows down. This is part of the theory of reletivity. Why is this important you may ask... well consider a very fast rocketship traveling through space, to propell itself it burns fuel at a very fast rate providing thrust. Well as the speed of the rocketship aproaches the speed of light, the slowing of time would have slowed the burn of the fuel and the rocket wouldn't be able to maintain its acceleration. At the speed of light, time stands still so the burning of fuel would have stopped altogether. So this would prevent the rocketship from ever reaching the speed of light. I guess you can apply the same thing to the train. as the man tried to run fast enough, time would slow him to the point of never reaching the speed of light.
This is much like the event horizon in a black hole. It's the point where the gravity accelerates you to the speed of light as you get pulled into the black hole. It is this point that time will stand still and you stop (at least to observers) . It's pretty freaky stuff, if you ever get the chance to read about it, I suggest you do. Good stuff.

Yeah, thats what i was getting at i guess. In order to travel at the speed of light, one must use an ifanite amount of energy. I've Hawking's book "The Universe in a Nutshell", pretty good stuff. Also caught a bit of it on discovery channel. You know you stuff Tim, are you a professor or something?

 

[Tim]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Yeah, thats what i was getting at i guess. In order to travel at the speed of light, one must use an ifanite amount of energy. I've Hawking's book "The Universe in a Nutshell", pretty good stuff. Also caught a bit of it on discovery channel. You know you stuff Tim, are you a professor or something?

Nope, I just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night

No, but seriously... I just retain tons of useless facts and DATA. I read a lot of obscure things and it just sticks with me. Plus if I hear about something that I don't know anything about, I have to look it up and add more to my useless knowledge.

 

[PhillyBlunt474]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

Think about this

you're on a train that is going ALL but 5 mph slower than the speed of light

if you are standing in that train and you run 6 mph in the direction the train is moving did you break the speed of light?

According to einstien's theory of relativity, nothing can be going faster than the speed of light, thus something must give. The man could walk as fast as he capble on the train (because it's all relative to the environment he is in), but when you add the speeds together you cant just add (speed of light-5) + 6. There's some equation for this, but i dont remember off hand what it is. So no, the man could not go faster than the speed of light applying einstiens theory.

See i dont understand this theory, becasue time is a human invented object and dosent have a lick in equations to me

As you speed up, time slows down. This is part of the theory of reletivity. Why is this important you may ask... well consider a very fast rocketship traveling through space, to propell itself it burns fuel at a very fast rate providing thrust. Well as the speed of the rocketship aproaches the speed of light, the slowing of time would have slowed the burn of the fuel and the rocket wouldn't be able to maintain its acceleration. At the speed of light, time stands still so the burning of fuel would have stopped altogether. So this would prevent the rocketship from ever reaching the speed of light. I guess you can apply the same thing to the train. as the man tried to run fast enough, time would slow him to the point of never reaching the speed of light.
This is much like the event horizon in a black hole. It's the point where the gravity accelerates you to the speed of light as you get pulled into the black hole. It is this point that time will stand still and you stop (at least to observers) . It's pretty freaky stuff, if you ever get the chance to read about it, I suggest you do. Good stuff.

 

[Ryum]

I understand where you guys are coming from on the energy and time thing but I don't think it pans out well for the guy on the "train"

Time to you would still pass as normal

example - if you spent 1 year stacking as many boxes as you can and it made a stack 100 feet high

on a space ship moving at near light speeds the same task would take the same amount of time in your perspective.
it doesn't matter that the rest of the world would see you spend thousands of years doing the same task

We move in 4 deminsions at all time

the faster we move thru our obvious 3d space the slower you move thru the 4th deminsion which is time

but no matter how fast you are moving, in the above "train" scenario where the train is moving excatly 5 miles an hour slower than the speed of light
Being on that train you can move, run, talk, ect




This isn't a good example of how I am trying to explain it, but its the best I've got

Your on a plane that is going over the speed of sound
you can still talk to people even though by the time that person speaks the spot in the world your ear is moving faster away from the spot in the world that person's mouth was when he was speaking faster than sound can keep up.

 

[OUZBnd]

Re: RE: Ponder this one

I understand where you guys are coming from on the energy and time thing but I don't think it pans out well for the guy on the "train"

Time to you would still pass as normal

example - if you spent 1 year stacking as many boxes as you can and it made a stack 100 feet high

on a space ship moving at near light speeds the same task would take the same amount of time in your perspective.
it doesn't matter that the rest of the world would see you spend thousands of years doing the same task

We move in 4 deminsions at all time

the faster we move thru our obvious 3d space the slower you move thru the 4th deminsion which is time

but no matter how fast you are moving, in the above "train" scenario where the train is moving excatly 5 miles an hour slower than the speed of light
Being on that train you can move, run, talk, ect




This isn't a good example of how I am trying to explain it, but its the best I've got

Your on a plane that is going over the speed of sound
you can still talk to people even though by the time that person speaks the spot in the world your ear is moving faster away from the spot in the world that person's mouth was when he was speaking faster than sound can keep up.

Thats right, because everything is "normal" in the plane, same as on the train.

But speed of sound and speed of time are two completely different ideas concepts. It's known that we can break the sound barrier. The theory of Relativity says that it's impossible to move faster than the speed of light, becuase to move AS fast as the speed of light it would take ifanite amounts of energy. So for an by stander that's watch the train go by it would look like its going the speed of light minus 5 mph. Then you add the 6mph the man is walking, logic would say he would appear to be going speed of light plus 1 mph. Well according to the theory of relativity, he cant. Something must give. And what would give would be the mans ability to walk such as speed that he was surpasing the speed of light when combined with the train. let me see if I can find the equation and I will post again.