People who give money to beggars face hefty fines in Indonesian city

[Dana]

Pfft we get weirdos here that arent even destitute with signs asking for hand out because they were either in the war and think they deserve or something or other... I agree with the giving to shelters. You can usually tell whose going to use a handout wisely and who is just going to abuse it but I agree that ppl should just give to shelters...

 

[HisHoliness]

Pfft we get weirdos here that arent even destitute with signs asking for hand out because they were either in the war and think they deserve or something or other... I agree with the giving to shelters. You can usually tell whose going to use a handout wisely and who is just going to abuse it but I agree that ppl should just give to shelters...

The difference is that most American homeless people have some sort of mental handicap or condition that prevents them from being able to make good choices for themselves, including seeking out shelters. High drug use also drives them away from shelters.

In Indonesia, the demographic of beggars is apparently quite different. They are normal people who have found that begging is more lucrative than employment. Shelters have nothing to do with it. These people are behaving rationally. There is just no economic incentive to holding down a real job.

 

[ssl]

But then why would the beggar borrow from you? He can just as easily borrow from the next guy and owe nothing.

The beggar would not borrow from a tourist, they would borrow from the government, in preparation to becoming employed without having to worry about food.

 

[HisHoliness]

The beggar would not borrow from a tourist, they would borrow from the government, in preparation to becoming employed without having to worry about food.

I see what you're saying, but it simply wouldn't work that way. A rational person is going to try and maximize their income, which is done by begging. Even if they could go to the government, it wouldn't make economic sense for the beggar to do so, because the money offered through begging is more. Also, they wouldn't have to work. It's a double win for the beggar this way. There isn't motivation to do what you're suggesting.

 

[Tim]

Jesus Christ in the Second Coming is going to come back as a homeless man, just to see what's what and who's doing their part...

It's a parable Jason, just like the rest of the bible. It's there to make you think and guide you to making moral decisions.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus will return to the earth that has over 6 billion people to see if they feed the homeless? What can he possibly learn from a minute sampling of the worlds population? Doesn't he already know everyone and their heart? So why would he test that which he already knows?
Where will he show up? What will he learn if he showed up in downtown Manhattan vs Bangkok vs main street America?

It's a point that is being made, nothing more, nothing less...

But whatever makes people feel good :dunno

 

[GraceAbounds]

That's THEIR cross to bear. If they're being dishonest, they'll be dealt with accordingly in the everafter, IMO.

If I pass up a person in need because I'm a douchebag and say "FECK the homeless, they can get a job," I'll get mine when Haysoos says, "Why did you not feed me when I was hungry?"

Truth.

 

[ssl]

I see what you're saying, but it simply wouldn't work that way. A rational person is going to try and maximize their income, which is done by begging. Even if they could go to the government, it wouldn't make economic sense for the beggar to do so, because the money offered through begging is more. Also, they wouldn't have to work. It's a double win for the beggar this way. There isn't motivation to do what you're suggesting.

Which is the issue the government is facing, and the solution they thought was best, was to impose fines.

 

[satinbutterfly]

I agree that donating to shelters is a good idea. I think more social programs for the homeless and those in poverty should be established.

We choose our life. We choose whether or not to work hard every day. If true determination is there, someone will do what it takes to make ends meet. I will not support someone in their decision to feed off of others, and I support fines for those who do. Let us help those who want our help, because they need it, not because they depend on it.

 

[groundpounder]

It's a parable Jason, just like the rest of the bible. It's there to make you think and guide you to making moral decisions.

what was a parable, my casual statement about where I thought JC might return? I don't profess to have the inside information on where JC is coming back, nor do I understand Revelation well enough to know how to take it literally, so I/we have no idea when, where or how. There's a popular country song (gp's second least favorite music genre) called "What She's an Angel" that sums up my thoughts on helping homeless
YouTube - Tommy Shane Steiner - What If She's An Angel
The pointed part that hits my heart:

There's a man standing on the corner
With a sign sayin "will work for food"
You know the man
You see him every morning
The one you never give your money to
You can sit there with your window rolled up
Wondering when the lights going to turn green
Never knowing what a couple more bucks
In his pocket might mean

What if he's an angel sent here from Heaven
And he's making certain that you're doing your best
To take the time to help one another
Brother are you going to pass that test
You can go on with your day to day
Trying to forget what you saw in his face
Knowing deep down it could have been his saving grace
What if he's an angel

So, do I base my spiritual ethos on a song by Tommy Shane Steiner? Well, no. What I know is that $5 is going to go further for him/her than it will for me. Will they buy booze with it as opposed to food? Maybe and perhaps probably - but that's not my part of the equation and not for me to judge or dictate how a gift is spent. My part of the equation is not having a hardened heart, and helping those less fortunate than I. What the wife and I do, however, to ward this off is keep dry goods in our vehicle, so when we see someone in this condition, we'll have a can of soup or bag of chips to give them. The ones that are truly in need (the overwhelming majority) give you back a look that is truly grateful.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus will return to the earth that has over 6 billion people to see if they feed the homeless? What can he possibly learn from a minute sampling of the worlds population? Doesn't he already know everyone and their heart? So why would he test that which he already knows?
Where will he show up? What will he learn if he showed up in downtown Manhattan vs Bangkok vs main street America?

It was a simple statement with a complex meaning, Tim. I have a vivid and overactive imagination, make no mistake, and it has a hard time imagining what The Second Coming is going to literally look like. Part of me says it's going to be like when the spaceships entered the atmosphere in "Independence Day." Then I ask the same questions you have:
Does He make a full pass around the globe to let everyone know He's back?
Where does He touch down? Iraq (Garden of Eden)? Jerusalem (hey, wasn't I just here)? Asia (population bang for the buck)? Here (largest Christian nation)? Democratic National Convention (for the irony)? The UN (take me to your leader)? Oprah's set (for the exposure)?
Like you, I don't know, either. But what I'm personally wary of is that it's NOT going to be some grand reentrance, but a subtle one, down at the offramp of I-80 and First Avenue. Just like He came in, all humble and such, in a friggin barn with a bunch of barnyard animals.

It's a point that is being made, nothing more, nothing less...
But whatever makes people feel good :dunno

huh? this one sailed over me....
The point I was trying to make was that we should help those less fortunate...

 

[GraceAbounds]

Truly one of your best posts on OTZ GP.
Thanks for blessing me this morning as I start my day. Reading it really touched my spirit.

I'd rep you, but the board won't let me just yet.

 

[Peter Parka]

We choose our life. We choose whether or not to work hard every day. If true determination is there, someone will do what it takes to make ends meet. I will not support someone in their decision to feed off of others, and I support fines for those who do. Let us help those who want our help, because they need it, not because they depend on it.

Yeah, see, in the real world there are destitute people through no fault of their own or do you think the starving people in many places such as Africa are dying because the are lazy bums who don't want to work?
Personally I'd rather see destitute people beg for money that rob people for it. It's a terrible situation that in countries such as ours there are still people who need to beg for money. The government should be trying to help them, not give them trouble.

 

[satinbutterfly]

Yeah, see, in the real world there are destitute people through no fault of their own or do you think the starving people in many places such as Africa are dying because the are lazy bums who don't want to work?
Personally I'd rather see destitute people beg for money that rob people for it. It's a terrible situation that in countries such as ours there are still people who need to beg for money. The government should be trying to help them, not give them trouble.

I wasn't referring to the people in Africa. I was referring to the people in nations where if you do want to work, plenty of work is available, such as in the US.

Again, I don't agree with the government giving people money for any length of time. I think 6 months is long enough to help someone get back on their feet. And I certainly don't agree with me giving additional dollars, especially when I pay taxes. I do give to certain charities, such as the Red Cross, but I don't give to beggars.

It's a personal choice.