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Content is watered down because other people get to do it? Like I said, I personally favor the old "hard instance as the game progresses", but from a large-scale player base/blizzard point of view, it is more fair to allow more people to see instances. And yes, I killed Rag, Nef, C'thun (and viscidus, but not Ouro) as well as 7-8 bosses in Naxx at level 60. I killed every single raid boss at 70, and I have killed most all of it at 80. So I think its fair to say I fall into the category of hardcore nerds that have done the harder content.
As for bad players, if anything, hardmodes now are as hard as sunwell was. It was much easier to carry people through sunwell than it is hardmode Freya or hardmode mimiron. Much, much easier. Just because a larger majority of people are getting tier 8 doesnt mean much to be honest. I have 4/5 tier 8.5 (the pants suck, i dont want them), and I have multiple ilvl 239 (highest ilvl) items. Seeing people running around n tier 8 or 8.5 doesnt bother me, and if they get ilvl 239 stuff, they cleared what I cleared anyways and they deserve it no less than I do.
As for progression in old content, thats just silly. MC was a joke. BWL was a joke other than Vael. AQ40 was fairly easy outside of Huhuran pre-good gear/NR, twin emps, and C'thun. Naxx even had 4-5 easy bosses.
At 70, gruul post nerf (which is the version 95%+ of people did, i was one who did the pre-nerf kill) karazhan, and SSC/TK post nerf were all a joke. we cleared hyjal in three weeks upon arrival. We cleared BT extremely fast. The only boss that was even hard was pre-nerf mother shahraz, who wasnt even hard as much as it was stupidly random. The only content at both 60/70 worth a shit in difficulty was sunwell and naxxramams. At 80, everything pre-ulduar was failry easy, but thats hwo it was at 60/70. Three drake sarth only took us 2 days to do, and we did it in early december.
HOWEVER, like I said, doing hardmode Freya/Mimiron/No Light In the Darkness is BY FAR harder than ANYTHING at 70. It took most guilds a week-two weeks to do normal mode content, but theres one guild in the WORLD right now that has cleared full content, and if you read what they said about no lights in the darkness/see the video, teh fight is INSANE.
As for arena, I dont know any classes that got bad PvE nerfs due to PvP. It is an issue, but one that has been thus far avoided. I also do play arena. I got gladiator on a warlock, shaman as enhancement and restoration, as well as a warrior. I have gotten it like 4-5 times in 2v2, 3-4 times in 3v3, and once in 5v5.
Right now, most classes who are dominant in PvE arent super dominant in PvP, other than druids. Rogues/hunters are the top PvE DPS right now, with warlocks hanging out around them. Druids/priests are the best healers. DKs are the best tanks by a mile.
Anywho, my advice to you is not get hung up over your gear not being as exclusive. Find something else to seperate you from them. For me, I build my name in dueling/raiding/arena.
No, content is watered down so that it can be done by more than the select few. What they've done is nerf Ulduar every few days (or more often) ever since it was released, in an effort to give more people the ability to see the fights. Again, I'm not saying that this is a bad strategy, at least from a business point of view... if you prevent your casual players (who comprise the majority of the player base) from seeing the newest content, they're not going to want to play, and you'll lose subscribers. It's a good business move, but it can be frustrating for those who want incredibly hard fights.
I think another problem is the fact that when a raid gets released (or an ExPack), the strategies for most of the bosses are already well known... because of the PTR testing of said bosses. Ulduar was a break from that to some extent, as General and Yogg-Saron weren't part of the PTR testing. So what happens is the top guilds figure out the strategies for the fights, those get disseminated to everyone else and then you have situations where the top guilds in the world blow through all of the content in the new raid in one night, and then spend a week or two working on the last two fights. The top guild on my old server, Kilrogg, is #42 in the world right now, and was mere seconds off of world firsts for most of the Ulduar content on the first night.
I realize that without the help of the PTRs, the fights would probably be even less tuned when it gets released... but it also leads to all of the content other than hard modes being down in a few nights. Obviously guilds like Ensidia, Method, and Paragon are going to try and kill it all as fast as is humanly possible... but perhaps it might be a better idea for that to take weeks rather than days.
Hardmodes might be harder than Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst... but not even close to the twins, pre-nerf M'uru, and KJ. I also don't have issues with seeing people in good gear... it just makes me sad to see people that I know are bad players being carried to good gear.
70 content other than SWP was simple... and I think that goes back to the whole PTR issue. Well, simple other than Gruul and Mag 1.0. But yet some of the introductory TBC content was still more difficult than even the hardest of the first WotLK content. Sarth 3D is/was a joke if my old guild pulled it off with our horrendous GM... and even then, you just had to stay out of the fire and dps the drakes down quick enough. I solo AOE tanked all of the adds on my pally who was wearing heroic/Naxx 10 gear for the most part. 6min Maly is simply a matter of having a lot of DPS and some DKs who know what the fuck they're doing.
I'd say that it's just me, but I'd be wrong, but it seemed like the vanilla content was a lot more meaningful than most of the TBC and WotLK content. The first final raid boss I killed was Hakkar, and I remember that being a really big deal for us at the time... because we had only done AQ20 and ZG up 'til that point, and hadn't ever set foot in MC... so we were raiding at difficulty level, and it was a blast. But then it seemed like most of the TBC content was... kill this trash, then kill this boss, loot, then kill more trash, then kill this boss, loot... it was like there wasn't really even any sense of accomplishment. Naxx seemed much the same way, and Ulduar is finally starting to end that trend, though I'm not really playing at the moment.
I've watched the vids for most of the hard modes, and yeah they look pretty intense... and I like the fact that there's some content that a lot of people simply won't see. No lights in the darkness is about the only thing in Ulduar that has the same level of achievement that KJ, classic KT, C'Thun, etc., did.
If you'd played a paladin, there's no way you could honestly say that no class has been nerfed in PvE for the sake of PvP. But then again, the name of the game with paladins is to nerf us (into the ground baby) the second we become viable.
Priests can be equally as dominate in PvE and PvP, DKs can be dominate in PvP and then be the best tank and incredibly good DPS in PvE.
I really have no earthly idea why you think that I'm getting hung up over my gear not being exclusive... to be honest, I don't much care about the gear, I care about experiencing the content, and getting the sense of accomplishment when I kill a boss for the first time... which is something that came few and far between in TBC and in WotLK up until this point. On Kilrogg I was known as one of the best pally tanks on the server, one of the best PvE mages, and was fast building my name as a very good boomkin before I called it quits. I merely said that I didn't like the fact that bads could be carried to good gear far more easily than at any other point in this game. What I mainly don't like about that is that those bads then act like they're amazing players, and then you get stuck in a PUG with them and want to /wrist because they suck so badly, and it makes you sad that such horrible players can get so far in the game now.
A lot of stuff you say is simply wrong or not true anymore. Ill just reply in order to how I read your post.
Firstly, the PTR/content issue was far worse at 60-70 than it was for Uld. For Ulduar, they split beta content between two contenants, and only left them up for a few hours. They didnt even put up every boss. Sure, you may find out strats to do normal modes, but normal modes dont really count for anything other than the 226 loot they drop.
Seeing as how I did (and have videos) of doing every fight in sunwell pre-nerf (yes, pre-10% hp m'uru nerf), I think my opinion is more accurate than yours, which you seem like youre going off of assumption. Eredar Twins on in Sunwell was hard, but the difficulty of those fights pale in comparison to pre-nerf Mimiron or 0 Lights YS.
With any game, as MC was out, players didnt have the time or examples to follow to play well. The next generation is always better than the previous one. As for the epicness, I dont think anything at 60 compared to the epic-ness of the KJ/KT kills. Ulduar was a bit lack luster in actual animations before Algalon, but they infused more lore. Although, I could careless about lore.
As for paladins, I find it funny to be honest. I was the top warrior/paladin (Im the warrior) and I got glad with that paladinin aout 6-7 brackets. The thing is, at the time paladin was the lowest represented glad class outside of shamans or maybe hunters. Then, season 5 rolls around, and literally more than **HALF** of the gladiator teams have a paladin on it. That was FAR worse than warrior/druid dreamed of being. Paladins in s5 were broken. They played a broken spec that no one raided with.
Also, to claim paladins are "nerfed into the ground" makes you look like a moron. Spec prot/holy in 2s, or beacon/ret in 3s and 5s and youll do fine. The rest of your class analysis isnt exactly true. A well played druid will not be outhealed by a priest on any fight, they can even outheal JoL on mimiron if theyre good enough. DKs will only win if they have a lot of mobs present and are specced unholy, which means most of the dps is fluff anyways.
Firstly, the PTR/content issue was far worse at 60-70 than it was for Uld. For Ulduar, they split beta content between two contenants, and only left them up for a few hours. They didnt even put up every boss. Sure, you may find out strats to do normal modes, but normal modes dont really count for anything other than the 226 loot they drop.
Seeing as how I did (and have videos) of doing every fight in sunwell pre-nerf (yes, pre-10% hp m'uru nerf), I think my opinion is more accurate than yours, which you seem like youre going off of assumption. Eredar Twins on in Sunwell was hard, but the difficulty of those fights pale in comparison to pre-nerf Mimiron or 0 Lights YS.
With any game, as MC was out, players didnt have the time or examples to follow to play well. The next generation is always better than the previous one. As for the epicness, I dont think anything at 60 compared to the epic-ness of the KJ/KT kills. Ulduar was a bit lack luster in actual animations before Algalon, but they infused more lore. Although, I could careless about lore.
As for paladins, I find it funny to be honest. I was the top warrior/paladin (Im the warrior) and I got glad with that paladinin aout 6-7 brackets. The thing is, at the time paladin was the lowest represented glad class outside of shamans or maybe hunters. Then, season 5 rolls around, and literally more than **HALF** of the gladiator teams have a paladin on it. That was FAR worse than warrior/druid dreamed of being. Paladins in s5 were broken. They played a broken spec that no one raided with.
Also, to claim paladins are "nerfed into the ground" makes you look like a moron. Spec prot/holy in 2s, or beacon/ret in 3s and 5s and youll do fine. The rest of your class analysis isnt exactly true. A well played druid will not be outhealed by a priest on any fight, they can even outheal JoL on mimiron if theyre good enough. DKs will only win if they have a lot of mobs present and are specced unholy, which means most of the dps is fluff anyways.
I said that the PTR issue wasn't as bad for Ulduar as it was for previous patches, but the all of the content other than Yogg-Saron were still tested on both NA and European realms.
Oh god, don't start the whole "I've done x so my opinion means more than yours does", it's insulting and ignorant. I'm going off of known facts and experience... both my own and those of friends of mine. Zero Lights and Mimiron hard may very well be the hardest encounters in the game thus far... but the hard modes I've experienced in Ulduar are about the same as the second half of SWP.
About the only "epic" encounters in TBC for me were Illidan, Archi, and KJ... everything else just simply didn't have the same feel as Rag, Nef, or hell, even Ony.
Paladins didn't have the representation in Seasons 1-4 because they were broken... every time they were given any type of viability it was taken away shortly after the patch release or during the PTR process. Prot had no viability whatsoever, holy would get locked out of spells, and ret was a joke, with no range, no gap closer, and no interrupts. Then Season 5 came out, paladins were broken the other way for the first time ever, if just for PvP (not counting the brief period of time after the 3.0.2 patch and the WotLK release where ret was completely OP in PvE, and then nerfed when the ExPack came out). But it wasn't any worse than warrior/druid was... and those two classes have been at the top of arena for a long time. Now, that all being said... my point is that paladins have been hurt in PvE because of nerfs done to "balance" PvP... which they have been.
Umm... you must've completely missed the part during the WotLK Beta process where Ghostcrawler said those very words about Paladins (apparently as a joke), right before the biggest ret nerfs in the entire beta process came down. What I find amusing about that is the fact that myself (amongst other paladin players in the beta) kept saying the same things about the class/spec... that we needed more sustainable DPS, our burst was too high, and that we needed a ranged attack... yet they completely ignored us until the 3.1 and 3.2 PTRs... instead choosing to nerf ret right before the ExPack release. Excuse me for being a bit bitter over the process... but I played the original beta for the game, playing a Paladin, and then the entire classes was faceraped right before the game was released... to the point where I didn't even bother buying it when it came out, and played EQ2 for a year instead. Then the same thing happened at the end of TBC beta (which I wasn't a part of), where they nerfed crusader strike significantly right before the ExPack came out... which was a nerf that they finally reversed about 3/4 of the way through TBC. Then like I said, they did it right at the end of the WotLK beta process again... it's a pattern, and a fairly well known one at that, at least for those who play the class. So no, it doesn't make me look like a moron, it makes me look like someone who has experienced the nerfs over the last 3.5 years, and was referencing a GC comment. Your other comments just make me scratch my head... so if I want to have a viable spec, I need to play arena and spec prot/holy or beacon/ret?
Again, my entire point has been about how PvE has been nerfed because of PvP. I don't arena, I have no desire to arena... I'm not sure how I can make that any more clear.This whole discussion seems to be pointless though, because you apparently known far more than I ever could... in your own mind anyway.
Once again, your assumptions of tested content on the PTR is simply wrong. You may want to read up. You are also agruing against me saying I have a more clear view becaues I have done the fights? Although you may not like it, anyone who has done something knows more about thatn someone who has not done something. Its as simple as that.
Paladins in season 1-2 were broken. Freedom/Sac cooldowns as long as the duration? No resilence? Lack of pvp knowledge available at the time? As for paladins being "nerfed" thats stupid, becasue the "nerfed" JotW spec was not the PvE holy specced used, so no, the nerfs did not effect PvE. Also, ret was fine in season 3/4 in 3v3 or 5v5. I got high rated with a ret in 3s and 5s. In addition, some specs simply sucked in pvp. All tank specs were bad. Fire was bad. Survival hunters were bad. Holy for priests was bad. Not a paladin issue at all.
I was talking about 80. Paladins at 70 were so out of control after 3.0, its hard to believe even paladins didnt feel like they needed a nerf. Being killed in half of a hoj duration wasnt fun at all. Ret DPS is always something that only idiots complained about. One ret paladin did amazing rDPS (his dps + his raid buffs) and even at 80, ret paladins werent grossly behind, and apparently in 3.2 their dps is on average.
To complain about paladins at release is also moronic. At 60, they were the best healer in the game. Sure, all they could do is heal, but you couldve been a pre-2.0 druid or a shaman, who also only got raid spots by healing. Except paladins were far superior in buffs/healing than shamans, and druids werent good until they got enough +healing/spirit and mp5 to make HT r4 spam worth using.
As for my arena comment, if you want to do well in arena, yes, you need to spec a pvp spec. I dont understand how that has any corelation with PvE nerfs. Id still like to hear specific examples of serious PvE nerfs from PvP though, becaues I cant think of any. Like I said, JotW was moved furhter down into the ret tre. That was the big 3.1 nerf, but then they introduced aura mastery, which is amazing in many PvE fights if used properly, and broken in pvp with an ele sham or destro lock.
Paladins in season 1-2 were broken. Freedom/Sac cooldowns as long as the duration? No resilence? Lack of pvp knowledge available at the time? As for paladins being "nerfed" thats stupid, becasue the "nerfed" JotW spec was not the PvE holy specced used, so no, the nerfs did not effect PvE. Also, ret was fine in season 3/4 in 3v3 or 5v5. I got high rated with a ret in 3s and 5s. In addition, some specs simply sucked in pvp. All tank specs were bad. Fire was bad. Survival hunters were bad. Holy for priests was bad. Not a paladin issue at all.
I was talking about 80. Paladins at 70 were so out of control after 3.0, its hard to believe even paladins didnt feel like they needed a nerf. Being killed in half of a hoj duration wasnt fun at all. Ret DPS is always something that only idiots complained about. One ret paladin did amazing rDPS (his dps + his raid buffs) and even at 80, ret paladins werent grossly behind, and apparently in 3.2 their dps is on average.
To complain about paladins at release is also moronic. At 60, they were the best healer in the game. Sure, all they could do is heal, but you couldve been a pre-2.0 druid or a shaman, who also only got raid spots by healing. Except paladins were far superior in buffs/healing than shamans, and druids werent good until they got enough +healing/spirit and mp5 to make HT r4 spam worth using.
As for my arena comment, if you want to do well in arena, yes, you need to spec a pvp spec. I dont understand how that has any corelation with PvE nerfs. Id still like to hear specific examples of serious PvE nerfs from PvP though, becaues I cant think of any. Like I said, JotW was moved furhter down into the ret tre. That was the big 3.1 nerf, but then they introduced aura mastery, which is amazing in many PvE fights if used properly, and broken in pvp with an ele sham or destro lock.
Except that my comments about tested content on the PTR is correct... giving all of the guilds like Method, Ensidia, et al; the chance to experience the content, figure the strats out, and then have them largely worked out for release gives them quite an advantage and leads to content falling quite quickly. The proliferation of these strategies then leads to the "lesser" guilds figuring them out faster. Whether you chose to believe it or not isn't my issue... but it is fact, and a fairly well known one.
I'm NOT talking about holy here... ret was nerfed at the TBC release, with the Crusader Strike cooldown going from 6sec (what it was on the PTR and the pre-ExPack patch) to 10sec. This decision was made as a direct result of people complaining that paladins were "too OP" in BGs during the 2.0.1 patch cycle before TBC was released.
GC has posted that ret dps has been behind the entire expansion thus far, and we're finally going to get bumped up to where we should be in 3.2.... which is about what happened during TBC... towards the end of the expansion is when they finally started making the spec viable.
First off... you're using a logical fallacy here... alliance and horde didn't both have Paladins and Shaman, so you can't say that paladins took raid spots from shaman, because that was an impossibility. Secondly... during the original closed beta, which apparently you weren't a part of, paladins had two viable specs... ret and holy. Ret had a good stacking strike/debuff system going with Crusader Strike, and holy was a strong healing spec. Then right before the game released, they abruptly changed everything with ret and made the class into a healbot. I'm not interested in healing in the least bit, I never have been, and I never will be. Therefore, my spec was taken away from me right before release... so no, saying that paladins were nerfed right before release isn't moronic, it's fact, plain and simple. Believe me, I've been playing this class for 3.5 years now, and it's been my main raiding class for the bulk of that time. So, I'm more than a little well versed in what's happened with the class since the original beta.
Also, druids had their niche in raid healing as well, because their HoTs were invaluable for fights with silence effects, and they brought paw. Balance and feral weren't viable specs until TBC, so the only druids you saw were healers.
I'll just say playing a retpally during vanilla was about the hardest thing to do... but I pulled it off because I was damn good at it, specced/enchanted/geared correctly, and was a GM/raid leader. I was one of only two raiding retpallies on my server during vanilla.
/facepalm
I don't want to do well in arena... I don't want to arena period. I'd really love it if they'd take the arena out of the entire game. As far as nerfs for PvP affecting PvE... the crusader strike cooldown was a game breaker for ret when TBC shipped, and it was done because of PvP. Exorcism requiring a cast time in the next patch, is a trade-off but being done strictly for PvP. Divine storm being made physical damage instead of holy damage was done because of PvP. JotW being nerfed to 15% of base mana (what it was when WotLK shipped) instead of 20% total mana was because of PvP... though they finally changed that back to what the paladin community told them it should be to begin with.
Except they arent correct. Not all the bosses were on PTR. Feel free to prove me wrong, but Id rather you try to do so and realize youre wrong Im not arguing that PTR strats have allowed for speedier progression, but the fact is it has improved since 60-70, when all content was alllowed for testing in MOST cases.
Also, crusader strike was OP at 70. PvE ret was also WAY too high at 70 after 3.0. It has always been fine PvE DPS from 2.x-3.0, and all of WotLK so far. It sucked at 60, but most all specs that werent healing for hybrids did suck.
GC tells people what they want to hear. Right now, ret DPS is a bit low. Are ret paladins useless in PvE? lol. Judgement of light is typically the highest heal. Bubble sac used on trantrums/fusion punchs is really op. Ret burst DPS with wings when you need burst DPS is useful. Ret also offers heals, unique buffs, salv, dispels, AoW procs. Theyre 100% fine in PvE for their utility/DPS. Now their DPS is being buffed a bit, and theyll continue to be too versitile in PvE. Prot espcially is going to be the 3rd best tank out of 4 tank classes, to the best tank.
I never said paladin took shaman raid spots at 60. The whole "raid spot" thing was rarely an issue for most normal guilds. Even my guild, which was pre-nerf m'uru/pre 3.0 KJ etc. etc. didnt have to sit certain classes. Sure, we had more resto shamans than holy paladins, but we didnt sit our paladisn either. Either way, that isnt what I was talking about. Im saying paladins have NEVER been weak. At 60, they were the best healers in PvE/extremely good at PvP. At 70, in s1-s2 holy was flat out broken. In s3-S4, holy was weak outside of 5s, but ret became a lot more viable. People also finally figured out prot was ridiculous for multi-mob tanking around Hyjals release. Ret paladins were used for every boss at 70 for non-bad guilds. Now at 80, holy is good for tank healing, outside of that not so good. Prot is still the best multi-mob tank due to holy shield. Ret is pretty much a must in raiding. I know about ret in beta, but I dont care. If you like ret, thats a part of a paladin. Every class has had its ups and downs. Shamans were bad for most all of 60 outside of elemental PvP/burst enhance pvp. Warlocks were the worst pvp class in the gmae for most of 60. Warriors were terrible at PvP at the start of LK until they buffed arms. Your spec may have had "challenges", but what Im getting at is it that its a spec, and its nto your class. Nor has ret been a red-headed step child of blizzard,because thats biased bullshti if you think thats the case.
I have trouble beliving you raided at 60, since you could only have one hot up a time, and druids only raided as resto for the handful of tank feral druids. Hell, we had a feral tank in AQ40 around when mangle was OP as hell. However, no one used balance druids, ever. Saying so is just untrue, since they did piss poor DPS. You could only hae one hot, which was rejuv since regrowth was too mana inefficent. Leaving healing touch spam druids, which were decent. I played horde at 60, so I never played with any paladins. All I know is that we had one enhancement shaman (which is the closest thing I can relate to) who raided in a semi-decent guild. His dps was piss poor, and he was more or less useless as enhancement. Leading a guild has nothing to do with personal class preformance either.
Once again, the crusader strike was needed for PvE as much as PvP. The people whining about the ret PvE dps were teh same who wanted ret to do as much as warlocks or rogues, which wasnt the intention at the time, nor is it now, but the dps margins are much closer.
I also am not replying to you anymore after reading what you just wrote. Excorcism has a cast time, but if you actually READ about your class, youd realize that ART OF WAR WORKS ON EXORCISM, MAKING IT AN INSTANT CAST. Meaning, its a free dps ability to fit into your rotation. The JotW nerf was also aimed at ret who could heal too much in addition to DPS. Right now, ret can kee down concecrate + full DPS rotation and have mana to toss flashs and dispels. Not sure where the nef is unless youre bombing holy lights, which you shouldnt do in pvp or pve.
Im not arguing that PTR strats have allowed for speedier progression, but the fact is it has improved since 60-70, when all content was alllowed for testing in MOST cases.Also, crusader strike was OP at 70. PvE ret was also WAY too high at 70 after 3.0. It has always been fine PvE DPS from 2.x-3.0, and all of WotLK so far. It sucked at 60, but most all specs that werent healing for hybrids did suck.
GC tells people what they want to hear. Right now, ret DPS is a bit low. Are ret paladins useless in PvE? lol. Judgement of light is typically the highest heal. Bubble sac used on trantrums/fusion punchs is really op. Ret burst DPS with wings when you need burst DPS is useful. Ret also offers heals, unique buffs, salv, dispels, AoW procs. Theyre 100% fine in PvE for their utility/DPS. Now their DPS is being buffed a bit, and theyll continue to be too versitile in PvE. Prot espcially is going to be the 3rd best tank out of 4 tank classes, to the best tank.
I never said paladin took shaman raid spots at 60. The whole "raid spot" thing was rarely an issue for most normal guilds. Even my guild, which was pre-nerf m'uru/pre 3.0 KJ etc. etc. didnt have to sit certain classes. Sure, we had more resto shamans than holy paladins, but we didnt sit our paladisn either. Either way, that isnt what I was talking about. Im saying paladins have NEVER been weak. At 60, they were the best healers in PvE/extremely good at PvP. At 70, in s1-s2 holy was flat out broken. In s3-S4, holy was weak outside of 5s, but ret became a lot more viable. People also finally figured out prot was ridiculous for multi-mob tanking around Hyjals release. Ret paladins were used for every boss at 70 for non-bad guilds. Now at 80, holy is good for tank healing, outside of that not so good. Prot is still the best multi-mob tank due to holy shield. Ret is pretty much a must in raiding. I know about ret in beta, but I dont care. If you like ret, thats a part of a paladin. Every class has had its ups and downs. Shamans were bad for most all of 60 outside of elemental PvP/burst enhance pvp. Warlocks were the worst pvp class in the gmae for most of 60. Warriors were terrible at PvP at the start of LK until they buffed arms. Your spec may have had "challenges", but what Im getting at is it that its a spec, and its nto your class. Nor has ret been a red-headed step child of blizzard,because thats biased bullshti if you think thats the case.
I have trouble beliving you raided at 60, since you could only have one hot up a time, and druids only raided as resto for the handful of tank feral druids. Hell, we had a feral tank in AQ40 around when mangle was OP as hell. However, no one used balance druids, ever. Saying so is just untrue, since they did piss poor DPS. You could only hae one hot, which was rejuv since regrowth was too mana inefficent. Leaving healing touch spam druids, which were decent. I played horde at 60, so I never played with any paladins. All I know is that we had one enhancement shaman (which is the closest thing I can relate to) who raided in a semi-decent guild. His dps was piss poor, and he was more or less useless as enhancement. Leading a guild has nothing to do with personal class preformance either.
Once again, the crusader strike was needed for PvE as much as PvP. The people whining about the ret PvE dps were teh same who wanted ret to do as much as warlocks or rogues, which wasnt the intention at the time, nor is it now, but the dps margins are much closer.
I also am not replying to you anymore after reading what you just wrote. Excorcism has a cast time, but if you actually READ about your class, youd realize that ART OF WAR WORKS ON EXORCISM, MAKING IT AN INSTANT CAST. Meaning, its a free dps ability to fit into your rotation. The JotW nerf was also aimed at ret who could heal too much in addition to DPS. Right now, ret can kee down concecrate + full DPS rotation and have mana to toss flashs and dispels. Not sure where the nef is unless youre bombing holy lights, which you shouldnt do in pvp or pve.
I really don't know why the hell I'm even bothering with this, since you apparently know *everything*.
Did you seriously not read a damn thing I said? I never said that *all* bosses were on the PTR... I specifically said that Yogg-Saron wasn't on the PTR... but he was the only boss for Ulduar that wasn't. Every boss was in the WotLK beta... Naxx, Sarth, and Maly... all on the beta. I don't remember which bosses were in the 2.4 PTR, because I wasn't playing much during that time, but I'm pretty sure the first three bosses all were.
Seriously? Have you played a paladin? Ever? Crusader Strike wasn't even close to being OP at 70... it was completely underpowered until 2.3 when the cooldown was reduced from 10sec to 6sec... where it should've been to begin with considering it was basically the only paladin attack in the game outside of judging.
Post 3.0.3 ret PvE dps was ridiculously high, but that was largely because we were given our game changing ability as a talent (Divine Storm) that was available for all ret PvE specs. We were evened out at 80 on the beta, if you had played the beta you would've been aware of that.
GC is simply a tool, worse than Kalgan ever was, but that's another discussion for another day. Ret DPS is lower than any other hybrid DPS spec, so yeah, it's a "bit" low. Did I ever say that ret was useless? Never. I simply said that ret wasn't behind on DPS. I'll disagree that they're "too" versatile... and dps is only being slightly buffed, while burst is being nerfed... which is what I've been saying needs to be done for a very long time.
You may not have explicitly said it, but it sure seemed to be implied... but hey, semantics, whatever. You're full of shit if you're seriously trying to tell me that paladins have never been weak, because that's a load of BS, no matter what you want to think. Again, I'm going to say, I don't give a shit about PvP except for the situations where PvP changes have hurt PvE. I don't play this game to PvP, I understand that other people do, but I don't... so please don't use the fact that paladins could supposedly PvP well as an excuse for why they were weak in PvE.
Ret being the red headed step child of the game is pretty much accepted fact by people who actually use their brains and view things even somewhat objectively. It's biased bullshit for you to claim otherwise (hey, making comments like that is fun).
Well fuck you too... I raided at 60, and I was damn good at it. I know that druids only raided as resto... except for the fact that we had a boomkin in our guild that raided with us occasionally, and while his DPS sucked, he did help one of our groups of casters do more damage due to his +5% crit buff, thus increasing their total DPS. We also raided with fury warriors, a shadow priest or two, and even an arms warrior. We took oddball specs and made them work in our raid composition. All I know is that we had two druid healers that were very good, and that their HoTs were helpful, and HT worked well, if being mana inefficient.
I'll simply say that I was a very good retpally at 60, and was Top 10, and generally top 5 DPS in our raids, and that wasn't because we sucked either... it was because I knew what I was doing, and I did it very very well. But hey, whatever dude.
Crusader strike was needed for both PvE and PvP, I've never disputed that... but to claim that the people whining about ret DPS being people who wanted to do more than anyone else is simply bullshit. I know for a fact that I never asked for that, and I know numerous other people who felt the exact same way.... the good players. The bads, who make retpallies look like morons, were the ones who wanted to be totally and completely OP and out-do every other class in the game. Those of us who know the class/spec have never wanted that.
Oh thank God, I don't have to feel like I have to respond to your inane bullshit anymore.
Wow, OMG NO WAY? Are you seriously telling me that Exorcism is being added to Art of War? No freaking way, I had no clue at all.
/sarcasm
I was well aware of that fact. It means that it's a free dps ability to fit into my rotation when it procs, opposed to it being an ability I can throw in whenever I want when the cooldown is up. I also never said that paladins were getting nerfed in this patch except that exorcism was being changed to a casted ability. Plus the fact that it's cast and no longer an instant cast can be considered a nerf to non-ret specs, as they can no longer use it without casting. Art of War was also changed so that it only procs on melee crits as opposed to all crits, so that can be considered a nerf in some ways as well.
All in all, you're just another elitist who thinks that he knows absolutely everything about the game. People like you amuse me, with your pathetic superiority complexes, the fact that you talk down to others who you don't agree with, and your all around attitude. But I digress.
Except they arent correct. Not all the bosses were on PTR. Feel free to prove me wrong, but Id rather you try to do so and realize youre wrong
Did you seriously not read a damn thing I said? I never said that *all* bosses were on the PTR... I specifically said that Yogg-Saron wasn't on the PTR... but he was the only boss for Ulduar that wasn't. Every boss was in the WotLK beta... Naxx, Sarth, and Maly... all on the beta. I don't remember which bosses were in the 2.4 PTR, because I wasn't playing much during that time, but I'm pretty sure the first three bosses all were.
Seriously? Have you played a paladin? Ever? Crusader Strike wasn't even close to being OP at 70... it was completely underpowered until 2.3 when the cooldown was reduced from 10sec to 6sec... where it should've been to begin with considering it was basically the only paladin attack in the game outside of judging.
Post 3.0.3 ret PvE dps was ridiculously high, but that was largely because we were given our game changing ability as a talent (Divine Storm) that was available for all ret PvE specs. We were evened out at 80 on the beta, if you had played the beta you would've been aware of that.
GC is simply a tool, worse than Kalgan ever was, but that's another discussion for another day. Ret DPS is lower than any other hybrid DPS spec, so yeah, it's a "bit" low. Did I ever say that ret was useless? Never. I simply said that ret wasn't behind on DPS. I'll disagree that they're "too" versatile... and dps is only being slightly buffed, while burst is being nerfed... which is what I've been saying needs to be done for a very long time.
You may not have explicitly said it, but it sure seemed to be implied... but hey, semantics, whatever. You're full of shit if you're seriously trying to tell me that paladins have never been weak, because that's a load of BS, no matter what you want to think. Again, I'm going to say, I don't give a shit about PvP except for the situations where PvP changes have hurt PvE. I don't play this game to PvP, I understand that other people do, but I don't... so please don't use the fact that paladins could supposedly PvP well as an excuse for why they were weak in PvE.
Ret being the red headed step child of the game is pretty much accepted fact by people who actually use their brains and view things even somewhat objectively. It's biased bullshit for you to claim otherwise (hey, making comments like that is fun).
Well fuck you too... I raided at 60, and I was damn good at it. I know that druids only raided as resto... except for the fact that we had a boomkin in our guild that raided with us occasionally, and while his DPS sucked, he did help one of our groups of casters do more damage due to his +5% crit buff, thus increasing their total DPS. We also raided with fury warriors, a shadow priest or two, and even an arms warrior. We took oddball specs and made them work in our raid composition. All I know is that we had two druid healers that were very good, and that their HoTs were helpful, and HT worked well, if being mana inefficient.
I'll simply say that I was a very good retpally at 60, and was Top 10, and generally top 5 DPS in our raids, and that wasn't because we sucked either... it was because I knew what I was doing, and I did it very very well. But hey, whatever dude.
Crusader strike was needed for both PvE and PvP, I've never disputed that... but to claim that the people whining about ret DPS being people who wanted to do more than anyone else is simply bullshit. I know for a fact that I never asked for that, and I know numerous other people who felt the exact same way.... the good players. The bads, who make retpallies look like morons, were the ones who wanted to be totally and completely OP and out-do every other class in the game. Those of us who know the class/spec have never wanted that.
Oh thank God, I don't have to feel like I have to respond to your inane bullshit anymore.
Wow, OMG NO WAY? Are you seriously telling me that Exorcism is being added to Art of War? No freaking way, I had no clue at all.
/sarcasm
I was well aware of that fact. It means that it's a free dps ability to fit into my rotation when it procs, opposed to it being an ability I can throw in whenever I want when the cooldown is up. I also never said that paladins were getting nerfed in this patch except that exorcism was being changed to a casted ability. Plus the fact that it's cast and no longer an instant cast can be considered a nerf to non-ret specs, as they can no longer use it without casting. Art of War was also changed so that it only procs on melee crits as opposed to all crits, so that can be considered a nerf in some ways as well.
All in all, you're just another elitist who thinks that he knows absolutely everything about the game. People like you amuse me, with your pathetic superiority complexes, the fact that you talk down to others who you don't agree with, and your all around attitude. But I digress.
irony is delicious
at this rate, im probably going to try and snake a shadowmourne then quit playing wow. im just not really enjoying the game so much. the change from being about maximizing your character to almost being about how many geared alts you can have is pretty boring. i just want it to be a challenge to make my warrior very powerful :<
im even doing arena as prot/hunter/holy pal now just for something new, but grinding back to 2400ish range is awful
im even doing arena as prot/hunter/holy pal now just for something new, but grinding back to 2400ish range is awful
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