My Constitutional Education

[retro]

What you said could easily have been construed as you claiming that the Federalist papers had no bearing. If you chose to take my statements afterward as condescending, that is your own choice to do so. But if someone were to claim that they didn't have any bearing, then they would in fact be ignorant as to how the supreme court works and how they've treated those papers in the past.

I'm actually about the furthest things from being angry, I simply call things the way that I see them. That can be an abrasive way of discussing, but I refuse to sugarcoat anything.

 

[retro]

But, I will ask again. Do you believe the Federalist papers to have no real bearing on the Constitution?

 

[Minor Axis]

But, I will ask again. Do you believe the Federalist papers to have no real bearing on the Constitution?

Ok, kind Sir, I'll get back with you after I look at them ok? BTW, do you have link that discusses the importance of the Federalist Papers regarding their bearing on the meaning of Constitutional interpretation and the Supreme Court? You know I"m ignerent.

I'm actually about the furthest things from being angry, I simply call things the way that I see them. That can be an abrasive way of discussing, but I refuse to sugarcoat anything.

So what has changed from last week when you were puking up your guts with disgust regarding us flaming liberals trashing the Constitution? I think I sensed some anger issues so forgive me if I made an assumption.

 

[Minor Axis]

Believe it or not I expressed the idea the Constitution stands on it's own words, not on the words of other documents before I researched the issue. I'm not finished, but looking around today I found this quote in this Wiki article on Federalist papers:

The amount of deference that should be given to the Federalist Papers in constitutional interpretation has always been somewhat controversial. As early as 1819, Chief Justice John Marshall noted in the famous case McCulloch v. Maryland, that "the opinions expressed by the authors of that work have been justly supposed to be entitled to great respect in expounding the Constitution. No tribute can be paid to them which exceeds their merit; but in applying their opinions to the cases which may arise in the progress of our government, a right to judge of their correctness must be retained."[29] Madison himself believed not only that The Federalist Papers were not a direct expression of the ideas of the Founders, but that those ideas themselves, and the "debates and incidental decisions of the Convention," should not be viewed as having any "authoritative character." In short, "the legitimate meaning of the Instrument must be derived from the text itself; or if a key is to be sought elsewhere, it must be not in the opinions or intentions of the Body which planned & proposed the Constitution, but in the sense attached to it by the people in their respective State Conventions where it recd. all the Authority which it possesses."[30][31]

Imagine that. At this point I'm not saying these papers are not influential, but Retro was quick to accuse me of being sadly uninformed earlier when I expressed this idea off the top of my head. Maybe I am, but I'm not the first to express the idea.

 

[Accountable]

Kyle, where did you pull this from?

Accountable and Retro, you guys are talking about the Federalist Papers as if they have some bearing on the words in the Constitution. Granted, I have not had a chance to read them, but it may be a problem if you are using these papers to explain the words in Constitution. It might lead you to believe what the intentions are of some of the founding fathers were and somehow that makes it binding, but first glance I think the words of the constitution take precedence. In other words if wording is vague such as "provide for the general welfare", then it is vague. I don't think you can say, well they ment "this" based on other writings. The Constitution stands on it's own. If it is vague, then you've got a framework to maneuver within and stay within Constitutionality. I need to look these Federalist papers over before I'll really decide the validity of this reasoning.

I stopped reading your & Retro's tete a' tete. I hope I didn't miss anything productive.
The Federalist Papers give the spirit of the law. It's an incredible resource to know what the originators meant by what they wrote.

 

[Minor Axis]

I stopped reading your & Retro's tete a' tete. I hope I didn't miss anything productive.
The Federalist Papers give the spirit of the law. It's an incredible resource to know what the originators meant by what they wrote.

What do you think about post #24?

 

[Accountable]

What do you think about post #24?

It makes perfect sense that SCOTUS not consider the Federalist Papers (hereby lazily referred to as FP) in making courtroom decisions, but I do think they are invaluable as a guide for legislators.

Example A:
You're my boss and give me parameters to work within. I want to do X but it's not crystal clear if it falls within my job description. Minor, what did you mean when you said "....." Oh, okay, thanks.

Example B:
You're a poster here and you present your opinion. I respond "You're talking out of your ass." You clarify with a later post. I respond "You should've said that in the first place, because that last post was dumb as hell."

So you see, if the legislators actually gave a tinker's damn about the constitution they pretended to swear to support and defend, they might get a better understanding of what their constitutional limitations are, but a Justice can (or should) only use the final draft to make a judgment, in the rare instance that they use it at all.

 

[Minor Axis]

Part 3 Updated (complete list of amendments followed by description of first 10.)
__________________________________________________
Bill of Rights source: Wikipedia and U.S. Constitution Online.

Theses are the Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution. (Details after short list)

*First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
*Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
*Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
*Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
*Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
*Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
*Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
*Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
*Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
*Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.

* Amendment 11 - Judicial Limits. Ratified 2/7/1795. Note History
* Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804. Note History The Electoral College
* Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
* Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
* Amendment 15 - Race No Bar to Vote. Ratified 2/3/1870. History
*Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History
* Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913. History
*Amendment 18 - Liquor Abolished. Ratified 1/16/1919. Repealed by Amendment 21, 12/5/1933. History
* Amendment 19 - Women's Suffrage. Ratified 8/18/1920. History
* Amendment 20 - Presidential, Congressional Terms. Ratified 1/23/1933. History
*Amendment 21 - Amendment 18 Repealed. Ratified 12/5/1933. History
* Amendment 22 - Presidential Term Limits. Ratified 2/27/1951. History
* Amendment 23 - Presidential Vote for District of Columbia. Ratified 3/29/1961. History
* Amendment 24 - Poll Tax Barred. Ratified 1/23/1964. History
* Amendment 25 - Presidential Disability and Succession. Ratified 2/10/1967. Note History
* Amendment 26 - Voting Age Set to 18 Years. Ratified 7/1/1971. History
* Amendment 27 - Limiting Changes to Congressional Pay. Ratified 5/7/1992. History


• First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
• Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. [7] • Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
• Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
• Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
• Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
• Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
• Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
• Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
• Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

 

[Minor Axis]

Description of Amendments 11-19.
Source: Wikipedia and U.S. Constitution Online.

* Amendment 11 - Judicial Limits. Ratified 2/7/1795. Note History
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
* Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804. Note History The Electoral College
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;
The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;
The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.
The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
* Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
* Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
* Amendment 15 - Race No Bar to Vote. Ratified 2/3/1870. History
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
*Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
* Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913. History
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.
When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.
This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.
*Amendment 18 - Liquor Abolished. Ratified 1/16/1919. Repealed by Amendment 21, 12/5/1933. History
1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.
2. The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.
* Amendment 19 - Women's Suffrage. Ratified 8/18/1920. History
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

 

[Minor Axis]

Description of Amendments 20-27.

* Amendment 20 - Presidential, Congressional Terms. Ratified 1/23/1933. History
1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.
2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.
3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.
5. Sections 1 and 2 shall take effect on the 15th day of October following the ratification of this article.
6. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission.
*Amendment 21 - Amendment 18 Repealed. Ratified 12/5/1933. History
1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
3. The article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.
* Amendment 22 - Presidential Term Limits. Ratified 2/27/1951. History
1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President, when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.
2. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.
* Amendment 23 - Presidential Vote for District of Columbia. Ratified 3/29/1961. History
1. The District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as the Congress may direct: A number of electors of President and Vice President equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives in Congress to which the District would be entitled if it were a State, but in no event more than the least populous State; they shall be in addition to those appointed by the States, but they shall be considered, for the purposes of the election of President and Vice President, to be electors appointed by a State; and they shall meet in the District and perform such duties as provided by the twelfth article of amendment.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
* Amendment 24 - Poll Tax Barred. Ratified 1/23/1964. History
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

* Amendment 25 - Presidential Disability and Succession. Ratified 2/10/1967. Note History
1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.
2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.
3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

* Amendment 26 - Voting Age Set to 18 Years. Ratified 7/1/1971. History
1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

* Amendment 27 - Limiting Changes to Congressional Pay. Ratified 5/7/1992. History
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

 

[Accountable]

Part 3 Updated (complete list of amendments followed by description of first 10.)
__________________________________________________
Bill of Rights source: Wikipedia and U.S. Constitution Online.

Theses are the Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution. (Details after short list)

*First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
*Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
*Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
*Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
*Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
*Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
*Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
*Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
*Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
*Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.

* Amendment 11 - Judicial Limits. Ratified 2/7/1795. Note History
* Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804. Note History The Electoral College
* Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
* Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. Ratified 7/9/1868. Note History
* Amendment 15 - Race No Bar to Vote. Ratified 2/3/1870. History
*Amendment 16 - Status of Income Tax Clarified. Ratified 2/3/1913. Note History
* Amendment 17 - Senators Elected by Popular Vote. Ratified 4/8/1913. History
*Amendment 18 - Liquor Abolished. Ratified 1/16/1919. Repealed by Amendment 21, 12/5/1933. History
* Amendment 19 - Women's Suffrage. Ratified 8/18/1920. History
* Amendment 20 - Presidential, Congressional Terms. Ratified 1/23/1933. History
*Amendment 21 - Amendment 18 Repealed. Ratified 12/5/1933. History
* Amendment 22 - Presidential Term Limits. Ratified 2/27/1951. History
* Amendment 23 - Presidential Vote for District of Columbia. Ratified 3/29/1961. History
* Amendment 24 - Poll Tax Barred. Ratified 1/23/1964. History
* Amendment 25 - Presidential Disability and Succession. Ratified 2/10/1967. Note History
* Amendment 26 - Voting Age Set to 18 Years. Ratified 7/1/1971. History
* Amendment 27 - Limiting Changes to Congressional Pay. Ratified 5/7/1992. History


• First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
• Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. [7]
• Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
• Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
• Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
• Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
• Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
• Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
• Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
• Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

It's HUGELY important to note, here, that these amendments did not grant any rights at all. Look at the phrasing. The amendments prohibit the federal government from impinging on rights we have naturally.

 

[Minor Axis]

It's HUGELY important to note, here, that these amendments did not grant any rights at all. Look at the phrasing. The amendments prohibit the federal government from impinging on rights we have naturally.

What are our natural rights? How are they defined or are they just this giant vague description of principle?

If you look at No.19- Woman's Sufferage, this in essence granted women the right to vote. You say it was a right they all ready had. I say that although it should have been a right it was not a right until it was granted by this amendment. It all boils down to your perspective and how you want to word it.

 

[Accountable]

What are our natural rights? How are they defined or are they just this giant vague description of principle?

It's that "we hold these truths to be self-evident" part.

I define a natural right as something any individual can do of their own volition with no impact on another. I can speak with no requirement that anyone listen. I can worship without anyone being required to bow their head. I can possess firearms (or any other property I can buy) without requiring anyone else to do anything. That sort of thing.

 

[Kyle B]

It's that "we hold these truths to be self-evident" part.

I define a natural right as something any individual can do of their own volition with no impact on another. I can speak with no requirement that anyone listen. I can worship without anyone being required to bow their head. I can possess firearms (or any other property I can buy) without requiring anyone else to do anything. That sort of thing.

I always thought of natural rights as rights that all humans are born with.

Oh, and that "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" part was plagiarized by Jefferson.

 

[Minor Axis]

Part 4
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
Federalist Papers- Essays written by some of the founding fathers in favor or against ideas in the Consitution.

I've noted that these papers are essays both pro and con. At this point I have no real desire to read all of them. I plan on looking at a couple of them. If a forum member thinks a particular paper is important regarding an ongoing discussion, I'd be happy to look at it.

The Federalist Papers were written to convince citizens of the U.S. why they should or should not support parts of the Constitution. It was pointed out that in a previous post, the Constitution stands on it's own words. The Federalist Papers do not serve as an extension of the Constitution, however they may offer some insight into how the founding fathers felt. But just because one individual describes what he thinks a concept means, or should be, this is not proof and does not mean that concept was ultimately accepted or rejected because of his thinking. Based on what I know so far, these papers are interesting but as a rule should not be important to the justices of the Supreme Court when they are rendering verdicts on Constitutional subjects. Why do I say that? Because there were a bunch of people who attended the Constitutional Convention. You can't pluck one of these papers and say that it represents the thinking of our Founding Fathers as a whole. There were many opinions expressed by our Founding Fathers. Concepts are up to individual interpretation. You know the Supreme Court is the same way. They might use the Federalist Papers to support what they basically agree with or ignore them if it does not fit into their frame of thinking.

I'm more than happy to hear counter points to this reasoning.

Links
Founding Fathers Info- Federalist Papers in etext.
List of Federalist Papers at Wikipedia.
Federalist Papers at Wikipedia.

Keep in mind the validity of Wikipedia has not been documented. These are articles put together as far as I know, without any assurance of consistent verification of accuracy.

 

[Minor Axis]

I didn't really pull it from a specific area. It is a basic textbook concept that was stressed in my various government classes in high school and college.

Here are some internet sources on the topic that I came across via a Google search. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_and_Proper_Clause

http://law.onecle.com/constitution/article-1/49-necessary-and-proper-clause.html

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/usconstitution/f/elastic.htm

I never thanked you for these links. I'll take a look at them now.

I always thought of natural rights as rights that all humans are born with.

Oh, and that "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" part was plagiarized by Jefferson.

What natural rights are you referring to?

What I find interesting is that you can take a saying like "Life, liberty...", but when it comes down to specifics, what does the heck that mean? Yes it is flowery prose, basically saying you deserve to live, you deserve liberty, liberty to do what you want and to what extent?, and pursuit of happiness. The last part sounds good, but does not lend itself to anything in particular when you trying to define a governing document. Try to write a rule based on "pursuit of happiness".

But, I will ask again. Do you believe the Federalist papers to have no real bearing on the Constitution?

The Constitution stands on it's own. From what I've read to date, I'd say not really. People attach as much or as little importance to the Federalist Papers as they think it will help their agenda.

 

[Minor Axis]

Ok, I think I have covered and listed the main portions of the U.S.Constitution and included a part on Federalist Papers with links. Is there some relevant document concerning the governance of the U.S. Government I've missed that is relevant?

The reason I created this thread and the research I've done so far was specifically because of the never ending cry in this forum that the Constitution is being violated. At this point I think it would benefit for the Libertarians or other concerned forum individuals to list the areas where you think the U.S. Constitution is being violated so the conversation can be focused on those issues.

My guess is that you (you know who your are ) will say Social Security and the new Health Care Bill violate the Constitution? What else?

Of the stuff I've read so far, the "General Welfare" clause caught my eye. I have found a Wikipedia link (with the usual Wikipedia disclaimer) on the General Welfare Clause which is interesting and a good illustration that our founding fathers were not all on the same page.

The two primary authors of the The Federalist essays set forth two separate, conflicting interpretations:

• James Madison advocated for the ratification of the Constitution in The Federalist and at the Virginia ratifying convention upon a narrow construction of the clause, asserting that spending must be at least tangentially tied to one of the other specifically enumerated powers, such as regulating interstate or foreign commerce, or providing for the military, as the General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement of purpose qualifying the power to tax.[9][10]
• Alexander Hamilton, only after the Constitution had been ratified, argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.[11]

While Hamilton's view prevailed during the administrations of Presidents Washington and Adams, historians argue that his view of the General Welfare Clause was repudiated in the election of 1800, and helped establish the primacy of the Democratic-Republican Party for the subsequent 24 years.[12]

While my view is subject to being influenced by your impassioned and logical arguments, at this point I say, that the power of the U.S. government to spend monies on what it considers to be the general good is not set in stone and not as clearly defined as you'd like it to be.

So Hamilton's view prevailed in the first two U.S. Administrations. Gee, if I was a pusher of the Founding Father argument, I could argue monies spent to help groups of people was endorsed and prevailed in the early years through today! And so what changes? People's opinions. It is opinion not necessarily based on what is in the text or if it is in the text, it is vague, in other words it is a framework like both Tim and I have argued.

The government since it has existed has set up special deals for agriculture, oil companies, aviation, welfare, and other pet projects depending solely on what the majority in power thought was important. The U.S. government has given money to and allowed favorite industries special tax status. I don't think I've heard anyone here scream about the unconstitutionality of agriculture and oil subsidies. If anything the U.S. Constitution is an incredibly good example of why in such a document, the more specific the description of what you want, the better.

This Thread deals specifically with the Constitutionality of U.S. Government managed Health Care.

 

[Accountable]

What I find interesting is that you can take a saying like "Life, liberty...", but when it comes down to specifics, what does the heck that mean? Yes it is flowery prose, basically saying you deserve to live, you deserve liberty, liberty to do what you want and to what extent?, and pursuit of happiness. The last part sounds good, but does not lend itself to anything in particular when you trying to define a governing document. Try to write a rule based on "pursuit of happiness".

There are places where you don't have the right to live. The despot in charge can grant or take life at his whim.

As for Pursuit of Happiness, wasn't that in the Declaration of Independence? It Doesn't really matter. Laws aren't based on rights, anyway. Our laws (theoretically) are written to protect our rights.

 

[Minor Axis]

With Constitution talk going on, bumped from obscurity.

 

[Peter Parka]

My personal opinion on the constitution - ripping it up would be a big bonus for the USA. Yes, it was very noble and there is still some good stuff in it but like the Bible, it is completely outdated. It really isn't the holy grail and is dragging the USA back to a silly, outdated era.