Memory:

[Accountable]

We just soften definitions???

You really believe this crap, don't you? You can define it anyway you like but it's still torture.

I do really believe that crap. We have the richest poor people in the world. Bringing a middle-class Somali here and leaving him homeless would significantly raise his standard of living. Magically pull a victim out of the Spanish Inquisition and plop him in Gitmo, he'd likely rate it 4 stars.

 

[Meirionnydd]

I do really believe that crap. We have the richest poor people in the world. Bringing a middle-class Somali here and leaving him homeless would significantly raise his standard of living. Magically pull a victim out of the Spanish Inquisition and plop him in Gitmo, he'd likely rate it 4 stars.

No you don't.

Comparitavely, a 'poor' person in Australia would be better off than their United States counterpart.

 

[Tim]

I do really believe that crap. We have the richest poor people in the world. Bringing a middle-class Somali here and leaving him homeless would significantly raise his standard of living. Magically pull a victim out of the Spanish Inquisition and plop him in Gitmo, he'd likely rate it 4 stars.

Ah, I see now. We can justify anything we do in the US when we compare it to past transgressions.

Does that mean Obama can round up all the right wing nut jobs and put them in internment camps since it pales in comparison with the Russian Gulags? Does it mean that we should just cut the hands off petty thief's since that's nothing compared to ancient stoning? How about we just throw out the constitution since it's nothing but a god damned piece of paper and it's too damned restrictive compared to communist China???

So since we didn't put the prisoners on the rack and slowly pull their bodies apart like they did in the Spanish inquisition, it isn't torture....?

 

[Accountable]

The disagreement is where we move that fuzzy gray line between acceptable and unacceptable, nothing more.

 

[Minor Axis]

We don't, we just soften definitions. We still have rampant poverty into the 21st century too, but we count people with homes, regular meals, and cable TV among the poor.

We? ...no you!

The disagreement is where we move that fuzzy gray line between acceptable and unacceptable, nothing more.

Excuses to justify.

 

[IntruderLS1]

You had better arguments before you were radicalized.

Accountable is not saying these things are okay BECAUSE they are so vastly and unbelievable less severe now than they used to be, he’s merely pointing out the fact that the terminology used by the angry left implies severity where there is none.

Falling is falling, no doubt. But there is a big difference between falling out of bed, and falling off a building.

It is dishonest to describe a person being killed on the rack, and a person being scared for 3 or 4 minutes using the exact same context and terminology. It’s essentially lie by omission.

 

[Minor Axis]

The entire "it's not really torture" argument put forth by the Bush Administration was simply an attempt to redefine "torture" to justify policy. You either buy into it or you don't. Any of you former/current military guys are not thinking clearly, if you think this will not adversely affect our people in future conflicts.

 

[Accountable]

The entire "it's not really torture" argument put forth by the Bush Administration was simply an attempt to redefine "torture" to justify policy. You either buy into it or you don't. Any of you former/current military guys are not thinking clearly, if you think this will not adversely affect our people in future conflicts.

Know what you're talking about before you speak against it. It's clear your imagination has never stretched far enough to encompass what pain one human can inflict on another. Listening to bad karaoke would fit the definition of torture in our society, and thank God and the American soldier for that.

The adverse effect isn't from waterboarding or even the humiliation pics from Abu Ghraib, it's from the politically motivated strident girly screams. Soon torture will include forcing prisoners to stay in a room without air conditioning or fresh sheets.

 

[Meirionnydd]

Know what you're talking about before you speak against it. It's clear your imagination has never stretched far enough to encompass what pain one human can inflict on another. Listening to bad karaoke would fit the definition of torture in our society, and thank God and the American soldier for that.

The adverse effect isn't from waterboarding or even the humiliation pics from Abu Ghraib, it's from the politically motivated strident girly screams. Soon torture will include forcing prisoners to stay in a room without air conditioning or fresh sheets.

Err..

Maybe some people need to be reminded on the actual definition of torture?

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

As for these 'enhanced interregration techniques' (A right wing euphemism for 'torture') such as waterboarding, would be regarded as torture. And if waterboarding does only qualify as torture today because we're using softer definitions, then why did the United States execute Japanese leaders for using waterboarding on P.O.W's during World War 2?

In almost every other western country on the planet, the 'enhanced 'interregration techniques' used on some of these detainees would almost unanimously qualify as torture. The debate has been muddied in the U.S. because it's been turned into a partisan issue.

 

[Minor Axis]

Know what you're talking about before you speak against it. It's clear your imagination has never stretched far enough to encompass what pain one human can inflict on another. Listening to bad karaoke would fit the definition of torture in our society, and thank God and the American soldier for that.

The adverse effect isn't from waterboarding or even the humiliation pics from Abu Ghraib, it's from the politically motivated strident girly screams. Soon torture will include forcing prisoners to stay in a room without air conditioning or fresh sheets.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for minimizing the issue and clarifying your views!

 

[Minor Axis]

Err..

Maybe some people need to be reminded on the actual definition of torture?

As for these 'enhanced interregration techniques' (A right wing euphemism for 'torture') such as waterboarding, would be regarded as torture. And if waterboarding does only qualify as torture today because we're using softer definitions, then why did the United States execute Japanese leaders for using waterboarding on P.O.W's during World War 2?

In almost every other western country on the planet, the 'enhanced 'interregration techniques' used on some of these detainees would almost unanimously qualify as torture. The debate has been muddied in the U.S. because it's been turned into a partisan issue.

The facts just bounce off of Accountable. Not only that, while I can't prove it, I'd be will to bet anyone that prisoners were tortured and killed in black sites overseas set up specifically to avoid any oversight and provide deniability. Otherwise why go to the trouble of setting them up?

Waterboarding.

Believe Me, It's Torture

 

[Accountable]

I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Really? I ask because you discard out-of-hand the opinions of those who have received education, training, and real-world experience on the matter. Where does your education, training, and/or real-world experience come from?

 

[Minor Axis]

Really? I ask because you discard out-of-hand the opinions of those who have received education, training, and real-world experience on the matter. Where does your education, training, and/or real-world experience come from?

I'm a veteran, I've been water boarded, I know the issue from a first hand perspective (although I was never a POW), and I have a negative opinion about it. You?

 

[Accountable]

I'm a veteran, I've been water boarded, I know the issue from a first hand perspective (although I was never a POW), and I have a negative opinion about it. You?

Thanks for setting the record straight. No, I've never been waterboarded, though many of my friends and former students had been. From your statement, "Any of you former/current military guys are not thinking clearly, if you think this will not adversely affect our people in future conflicts," it's easy to see how I inferred wrong.

Still, the media's over the top exaggerations and practically "fainting from vapors" do far more harm than dipping someone's head under water. To say waterboarding only makes it worse for our captured soldiers, I don't see what could be worse than public beheadings and inceneration.

 

[Minor Axis]

Thanks for setting the record straight. No, I've never been waterboarded, though many of my friends and former students had been. From your statement, "Any of you former/current military guys are not thinking clearly, if you think this will not adversely affect our people in future conflicts," it's easy to see how I inferred wrong.

Still, the media's over the top exaggerations and practically "fainting from vapors" do far more harm than dipping someone's head under water. To say waterboarding only makes it worse for our captured soldiers, I don't see what could be worse than public beheadings and inceneration.

Being a POW is a game, a deadly game with captors who if are not torturing you, are trying to trick you into giving up info. My son just went through SERE school and his captors made it clear that based on new rules adopted by the U.S. under Bush, they feel torture in general is more than justified. Since the U.S. does it, why not? Yes it is manipulation used in a training exercise to expose you to what can be expected.

While you can argue his captors are going to torture no matter what, and it does not matter what the U.S. does, as a moral issue, and as a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, a no-torture standard has been our rule since as least WWII, and flaunting the standard gives captors another tool to be used against our POWs. Yes, it is all about degrees but I don't know how many times it must be said to sink in, we convicted people in WWII for torture and specifically water boarding as a crime. And as a broad policy torture is not a reliable means of gathering intelligence. There are drugs that do a better job.

Something to consider- during the first Gulf War there were U.S. Prisoners of War. The enemy knew they would be given up, the question was what kind of shape would they be in? At the time, the U.S. had a clear no-torture policy. What shape will they be in for the next conflict if the U.S. standard is "torture is a necessary part of war"? Is that a good or bad deal for future POWs?

 

[Tim]

[vbtube]SfYov5o5_2s[/vbtube]

 

[Minor Axis]

Oh, what does the former interrogator know? I'd much rather believe our intrepid military service-avoiding former V.P. that 100s of thousands of lives may have been saved due to our enhanced interrogation techniques. It sounds so good. :yuk

 

[Accountable]

We agree tha torture is wrong and immoral. We just disagree on where to place the gray line.

 

[Minor Axis]

Before Bush & Cheney came along the line was pretty well defined.