LOL!! All the Establishment People are Campaigning Against Paul

[retro]

So Tim. What, exactly, are you afraid of DRP doing if he won the election? From what I know, he isn't going to end Social Security or Medicare, though he views them to be unconstitutional. He wants an end to the federal reserve, which should be something you agree with. He wants to keep us from getting involved all over the work in illegal military action. He wants to balance the budget, is against special interest influence over policies, less government bureaucracies, and less waste in Washington. All of those things seem to be things that you agree with.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I'm not a RP fan because I'm an evil liberal that believes in universal health care, a living wage and strong labor laws that favor the working class, middle class and small business class. RP's beliefs support the big business, big banking wall Street status quo.

About the only thing I agree with RP on is his position on or everlasting foriegn wars.

If you work for a paycheck or operate a small business, voting for RP is against your best interests. I just cannot understand why you RP supporters refuse to see that. :shrug:

 

[Johnfromokc]

Oh - and I agree with him on the Federal Reserve. So thats 2 issues - but those 2 issues does not prevent the corpratocracy from fucking over the working class, middle class and small business class. Take away those 2 issues, and RP is not much different than any other conservative.

 

[retro]

If you work for a paycheck or operate a small business, voting for RP is against your best interests. I just cannot understand why you RP supporters refuse to see that. :shrug:

That's the great thing about opinions... I have mine, and you have yours. I'd prefer that my country not bankrupt itself on wars, entitlements, and unnecessary government programs. You'd rather have the government give everything to the people so they don't have to provide for themselves. Seems like voting for Ron Paul is perfectly in my best interests, just not yours.

 

[Johnfromokc]

That's the great thing about opinions... I have mine, and you have yours. I'd prefer that my country not bankrupt itself on wars, entitlements, and unnecessary government programs. You'd rather have the government give everything to the people so they don't have to provide for themselves. Seems like voting for Ron Paul is perfectly in my best interests, just not yours.

No retro - I do not want to "give" anyone anything. Nothing is free.

Universal health care can easily be paid for with taxation which would be much cheaper than what we have now. Know how much Australians levey for their Medicare? A whopping 1.5%. They can do that because uninsured citizens are not forced to go to emergency rooms for medical care they cannot pay for, which drives up the bottom line medical costs for the rest of us who have health insurance. Even if we had to pay a 5% Medicare levy, it would save billions in health care costs from day one.

With universal health care, small business would not be burdened with the cost of group health insurance and the hassel of having to constantly shop for lower premiums.

With universal health care, you can quit that dead end, stressful job for the one you really want, knowing you have health care coverage not tied to your employer.

With a living wage law, all businesses will be on a level playing field competing for employees. YES, you'll pay about a dollar extra for that Happy Meal or your pizza or that 12 pack of beer or bottle of liquor, but the economy will be far more robust than it is now when the working class has more money to spend.

Trickle Down economics has had the last 30+ years to PROVE it is a failure. Do you really need another 30 years just to be sure?

And guess what?

The rich will still be rich even if they have to pay the universal health care levy.

The rich will still be rich even if they have to pay Social Security taxes on all of their income instead of only on the first $105,000.

The rich will still be rich if they have to pay 40% on their AGI over $250,000.

The rich will still be rich even if they can no longer claim their billions in income at the 15% capital gains rate.

But the working class, middle class and small business class will be far more prosperous than they are now.

You will be far better off economically with this type of economic system retro. How could doing the same things we have been doing the last 30 years get any better? It's time for a real change in the favor of the 95% of the nation that actually gets the work done.

 

[All Else Failed]

Still only using McDonalds, a multi-billion dollar international corporation, as the only example, huh?



and your seemingly blatant hatred for wealthy people is getting tired. It is as if you're automatically a horrible person for making over $100,000 or own a large business or something.




Real change can only happen through a complete overhaul of our society. Pressing the reset button, in a way. Our society is the way it is because our culture has become too decadent. It did not trickle down, or trickle up. It happened en masse on ever level. Our entire system, culture and value system is rotted.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Still only using McDonalds, a multi-billion dollar international corporation, as the only example, huh?

AEF - Are you completely fucking stupid or what? You don't half-assed read posts and then you say shit like this.

and your seemingly blatant hatred for wealthy people is getting tired. It is as if you're automatically a horrible person for making over $100,000 or own a large business or something.

More moronic statements. My household income FAR EXCEEDS $100,000. It's been beyond that so long I'd feel fucking poor if it dropped to $100K - I must hate myself. :willy_nilly:

And guess what the fuck else AEF? I earn every goddamned dime of it. My parents household income never exceeded $30K and I do not have a college degree. No help from mommy & daddy for me with the exception of the loan of a 1978 Chevy Nova I drove while in the military. Tell me what motherfucking liberal program I used to get where I am AEF. Maybe the Marine Corps is one of those liberal jobs prgrams, huh?

If anyone has a reason to be a selfish conceited conservative, I fucking do. But I'm a liberal who hates wealthy people according to you.

Unlike you, I understand who actually pays the brunt of taxes in the United States as a percentage of their income - it's families like mine that make too much to qualify for the government assistance for the kids college or the earned income credit. And - also unlike your ignorant ass, I do not begrudge those working families who benefit from those programs. I want them to have those benefits. Better still, I want them to have universal health care coverage and a living wage.

And I'm not pissing and whining about my taxes nor will I defend the wealthy who hide their income behind the capital gains tax laws that favor them paying 15% while I and the rest of the shrinking middle class take the tax hit on our earned income from 28% and above brackets.

I advocate for the working class - but you kiss the ass of the wealthy and vote against your own best interests. Why the fuck do you do that AEF? Did your momma drop you on your fucking head when you were a baby?

And economically, conditions for the working class have gotten steadily worse. A job at $10.00 per hour with health care coverage was a decent starting wage in the mid 80's for a high school graduate or even a returning military veteran. The problem is that many employers today don't even pay that much. That's just fucking WRONG - especially when the top 1% get richer on the backs of the working class every single day.

You see, I remember where the fuck I came from and how hard it can be to pull yourself up by your boot-straps. But some people don't even have boots or a 1978 Chevy Nova with a straight-six to help them get started. You can't seem to get that through your simple conservative brain.

Real change can only happen through a complete overhaul of our society. Pressing the reset button, in a way. Our society is the way it is because our culture has become too decadent. It did not trickle down, or trickle up. It happened en masse on ever level. Our entire system, culture and value system is rotted.

What the fuck exactly do you think a living wage and universal health care for all Americans would be? It's NEVER BEEN DONE HERE. That's the reset button, but for some reason you are too goddamned dense to understand that.

Tell us AEF - why are you a shill for the wealthy? Do you think you'll join their ranks some day because you carried their water and voted repeatedly against your own best interests?

 

[All Else Failed]

First of all, take a deep breath because swearing every 6 words is not going to lead to anything productive.

More moronic statements. My household income FAR EXCEEDS $100,000. It's been beyond that so long I'd feel fucking poor if it dropped to $100K - I must hate myself.

Well congrats on your success. However, you don't seem to give the wealthy where their credit is due. A CEO, for instance, is an important figure in a business. Not all of them are corrupt money mongers. Most of your posts deride the super wealthy, and in some cases it is merited, as if they're all 100% cheating lairs. This is simply not true.

I earn every goddamned dime of it. My parents household income never exceeded $30K and I do not have a college degree. No help from mommy & daddy for me with the exception of the loan of a 1978 Chevy Nova I drove while in the military. Tell me what motherfucking liberal program I used to get where I am AEF. Maybe the Marine Corps is one of those liberal jobs prgrams, huh?

Why are we discussing "liberal programs"? I didn't say anything about such a thing.

If anyone has a reason to be a selfish conceited conservative, I fucking do. But I'm a liberal who hates wealthy people according to you.

You are a liberal if you support democracy, yes. Even Republicans are liberal in the sense that they wish to uphold classical liberal ideas.

Unlike you, I understand who actually pays the brunt of taxes in the United States as a percentage of their income - it's families like mine that make too much to qualify for the government assistance for the kids college or the earned income credit.

No actually I've said multiple times that the upper-middle on up pays for everything.

And I'm not pissing and whining about my taxes nor will I defend the wealthy who hide their income behind the capital gains tax laws that favor them paying 15% while I and the rest of the shrinking middle class take the tax hit on our earned income from 28% and above brackets.

you act as if all wealthy people make the majority of their wealth from capital gains

I advocate for the working class - but you kiss the ass of the wealthy and vote against your own best interests.

This is where you are confused. I am working class. I advocate for the middle class too, I just don't favor massive government programs like you want. If you haven't noticed already, the government turns most things to shit lately and cannot spend money correctly, no matter what party is in the white house. I simply see a lot of people attacking wealthy people and think they are attacking a symptom of the problem.

And economically, conditions for the working class have gotten steadily worse. A job at $10.00 per hour with health care coverage was a decent starting wage in the mid 80's for a high school graduate or even a returning military veteran. The problem is that many employers today don't even pay that much. That's just fucking WRONG - especially when the top 1% get richer on the backs of the working class every single day.

I agree until the emboldened part.

Different jobs warrant different pay.

The ticket to a good paying job is education, and that is why I think we can put more people into better paying jobs through academia. That is why education reform is one of my biggest areas of interest in order to change it.

You see, I remember where the fuck I came from and how hard it can be to pull yourself up by your boot-straps. But some people don't even have boots or a 1978 Chevy Nova with a straight-six to help them get started. You can't seem to get that through your simple conservative brain.

No see I know where I come from too. Everything I ever owned or got was through my own hard work and endless hours of study. Hardly anything was given to me, so you're preaching to the choir. I just think that the government is the source of a lot of our problems, and given them more power over our lives is one of the worst things you could possibly do.

What the fuck exactly do you think a living wage and universal health care for all Americans would be? It's NEVER BEEN DONE HERE. That's the reset button, but for some reason you are too goddamned dense to understand that.

None of these are addressing the real issue. The real issue is western decadence and modernity itself.

Tell us AEF - why are you a shill for the wealthy? Do you think you'll join their ranks some day because you carried their water and voted repeatedly against your own best interests?

I'll be wealthy one day because of my own hard work. not because of some bureaucrat.

 

[All Else Failed]

Just curious, in a sentence or two, give me your stance on these issues:

Gun control/gun rights

abortion

immigration

separation of church and state

 

[Accountable]

I don't dislike him from his left, right or centrist positions. I dislike him because I think he is a loon.

He embraces an economic system that has never been tried in the real world

If you mean using a gold/silver-based monetary system, that's how it was done for centuries before we went to make-believe money.

and he doesn't have a clue when it comes to foreign policy.

Of course he does. Why not address something real instead of the hyperbole? You don't agree with withdrawing our troops. That's valid. It's wrong, but valid.

He envisions a minimalist government view that would never work in the real world...

He just scares the shit out of me on his crazy rantings.

Only the federal gov't would be minimalist. You can make your state gov't as intrusive as you'd like.
Which rantings do you mean?

 

[Accountable]

I'm not a RP fan because I'm an evil liberal that believes in universal health care, a living wage and strong labor laws that favor the working class, middle class and small business class. RP's beliefs support the big business, big banking wall Street status quo.

About the only thing I agree with RP on is his position on or everlasting foriegn wars.

See, Tim? Like I said, Libs like his foreign policy but dislike his domestic policy. Why oh why does everyone focus on the negative?

RP's beliefs support the big business, big banking wall Street status quo. [...] If you work for a paycheck or operate a small business, voting for RP is against your best interests. I just cannot understand why you RP supporters refuse to see that. :shrug:

I think you've got it wrong here, John. Republocrats have been protecting big business for generations. Paul would take away those protections, leaving them vulnerable to the consequences of their dangerously risky practices, and making it easier for small businesses to start and become competitive. All these ornerous regulations that make it nearly impossible to enter the market protect big business. Most if not all of them would be gone if Paul had his way.

 

[CityGirl]

I tend to agree with this observation:

If Paul wins, it won't be because he is the kind of candidate Americans have always gone for. It will be precisely because Americans have collectively decided on a dramatically new way of doing business -- a new political and economic paradigm -- and then he'll not only have ceased to be a long shot; he'll be the only shot.~Econophile Blog

 

[Accountable]

I can live with that.

 

[Johnfromokc]

First of all, take a deep breath because swearing every 6 words is not going to lead to anything productive.

Your inability to understand what has been posted, and your propensity to repeat the same stupid shit like "you hate the wealthy" precludes any attempt to be nice. You're like a stubbourn jackass that needs a 2x4 upside the head to get his attention.

Case in point:

Well congrats on your success. However, you don't seem to give the wealthy where their credit is due. A CEO, for instance, is an important figure in a business. Not all of them are corrupt money mongers. Most of your posts deride the super wealthy, and in some cases it is merited, as if they're all 100% cheating lairs. This is simply not true.

There you go with the silly-assed generalizations about how you think I percieve the wealthy. I've fucking told you numerous times, but it won't penetrate your thick conservative skull for some reason. I see the need for higher tax brackets for the wealthy in order to pay for the infrastructure of this nation that faciliates their wealth in the first place. Part of the social infrastructure is providing universal health care for all Americans. It is the right and moral thing to do. How many billions of $$$ does one human need to accumulate and hoard to be happy? Is it going to kill you to pay a few bucks more for a pizza or a bottle of liquor so that a working mother can actually EARN a living wage instead of signing up for welfare because she cannot afford child care on $7.25 and hour?

Don't you think if the minimum wage was $15 per hour, but welfare only paid the equivalent of $5 that there would then be incentive to work?

Why are we discussing "liberal programs"? I didn't say anything about such a thing.

You regularly invoke the evils of government run programs in your posts and lament how those programs create horrible problems for America.

You are a liberal if you support democracy, yes. Even Republicans are liberal in the sense that they wish to uphold classical liberal ideas.

So are you a liberal too? Could have fooled me.

No actually I've said multiple times that the upper-middle on up pays for everything.

It's not just the upper middle that pays:

Adjusted Gross income -

$17,000 and under- If you are in this income bracket, you will be taxed at about 10%.

$17,001-$69,000- This income bracket will be taxed at around 15%.

$69,001-$139,350- This middle class income will be taxed at about 25%.

$139,351-$212,300- The tax rate for this bracket will increase to 28%.

$212,301-$379,150- The tax rate for this higher income level will be about 33%

If you earn anything above $379,151 then you will be taxed at 35%.

All this bullshit about 50% of the population pays no federal tax is just so much right wing propaganda.

you act as if all wealthy people make the majority of their wealth from capital gains

Ummmmm....because they do. The billionaire class lobbied for the tax laws that allow them to classify their incomes so that they pay the 15% rate instead of the 35% rate. The earned income bracket is reserved for people like you & me who get their income from customers and payroll. Why do you think so many CEO's take their compensation in stock options instead of salary? Why do you think Warren Buffett takes only a $100,000 salary and the rest in capital gains? This is old news. You really need to educate yourself in this area.

This is where you are confused. I am working class. I advocate for the middle class too, I just don't favor massive government programs like you want. If you haven't noticed already, the government turns most things to shit lately and cannot spend money correctly, no matter what party is in the white house. I simply see a lot of people attacking wealthy people and think they are attacking a symptom of the problem.

I have yet to see you advocate for the working class. You definition of middle class is clearly different than mine. I include the true small business owner in my definition as well - as I've told you - I have created 3 profitable small businesses thus far in my life and I understand what is involved from start up to day-to-day operations.

The wealthiest are who controls American politics. Why is that so frigging hard for you to understand? Until we replace the current batch of millionaire congressmen and senators with legislators who will put an end to the plutocracy and corpratocracy, it won't change. And it will certainly never change putting more conservatives in office who only seek to CONSERVE the status quo. We need a labor party for real change - not some asshat conservo-libertarians who will make it even harder for the working class.

I agree until the emboldened part.

Different jobs warrant different pay.

Indeed - but the starting point in the richest country on the planet should be more than a measley fucking poverty wage of $7.25 per hour with no health care. I have NEVER said all wages should be equal - only the bottom should be raised because our current minimum wage is fucking immoral.

The ticket to a good paying job is education, and that is why I think we can put more people into better paying jobs through academia. That is why education reform is one of my biggest areas of interest in order to change it.

I'm paying college tuition for my daughter right now at the University of Central Oklahoma. With all the fees tacked on - excluding books - I am paying $185 per credit hour, 104 hours for a bachelors degree, which comes to $19,240. My son starts in fall of 2013, so tuition doubles for me for at least two more years to - $38,480. Thats reality at a state university and the kids living at home. That's a big expense even on my household income.

Tell me - how would you reform education? How can a family earning $60,000 pay for this? How can a kid earning $7.25 per hour on a part time job carrying a full course load afford $400-$500 + per month in tution and books? What would you do to make college available to all who can academically qualify?

And of even greater importance - how would you help those who are not college material acquire job skills and some higher education?

No see I know where I come from too. Everything I ever owned or got was through my own hard work and endless hours of study. Hardly anything was given to me, so you're preaching to the choir. I just think that the government is the source of a lot of our problems, and given them more power over our lives is one of the worst things you could possibly do.

Tell me exactly what "hardly anything was given to me" means? Itemize what was given - let's compare apples to apples. Did you pay for your own degree? What degree did you earn? Did you live at home with your parents or other benefactor? Did your parents provide you with a car? Help me understand how you think - give me the details.

None of these are addressing the real issue. The real issue is western decadence and modernity itself.

Decadence?? Is access to affordable healthcare "decadence"???? Is a living wage "decadence"? Or is decadence the wealthiest American paying less as a percentage of their income in taxes and hoarding millions and billions while lobbying our elected legislators for lower taxes for themselves and fighting minimum wage increases for the working class????

I'll be wealthy one day because of my own hard work. not because of some bureaucrat.

Good luck getting into the wealthy club. It's not like it was 30 years ago - and carrying the water for the wealthy and voting against the interests of the working class won't guarentee you admission.

Just curious, in a sentence or two, give me your stance on these issues:

Gun control/gun rights

abortion

immigration

separation of church and state

Gun rights - I am a lifetime NRA member and own many weapons and thousands of rounds off ammunition.

Abortion is a womans choice and none of your or my business - even if we happen to be the sperm donors.

Immigration - lock the borders down and admit only qualified immigrants in the quantity that maintains zero population growth.

Separation of church and state - Complete and total separation. Zero religion in government, tax all chuches the same as any business.

 

[Alien Allen]

John what is up with the diatribe?

What exactly did he say to make you go off the deep end?

Because I did not see where he attacked you but merely responded

Maybe I missed it thru all the mush. I am not usually one to get interested in long parsed out post responses.

 

[Accountable]

This: Part of the social infrastructure is providing universal health care for all Americans. It is the right and moral thing to do.
And This: Separation of church and state - Complete and total separation. Zero religion in government, tax all chuches the same as any business.

Isn't the purpose of separating Church and State so that we won't have the government dictating what is moral and what is not?

 

[Johnfromokc]

John what is up with the diatribe?

What exactly did he say to make you go off the deep end?

Because I did not see where he attacked you but merely responded

Maybe I missed it thru all the mush. I am not usually one to get interested in long parsed out post responses.

You're going to have to read through the whole post to even begin to understand Allen. It's a pretty damned good rant if I do say so myslef.

I've been going back and forth with AEF for a while in other threads. He didn't attack, but he ignores or does not read the entire post and repeats the same old shit I clarified several posts back.

He may be coming around though - I honestly do try and save my verbal abuse for special occaisions. It's just you conservatives are so special - like short bus special .

 

[Johnfromokc]

Isn't the purpose of separating Church and State so that we won't have the government dictating what is moral and what is not?

Morality is determined by democratic societies. It is morally right to take care of your fellow citizens, and the cost is negligible when 100% of the population contributes to health care and old age care. If the various religions want to participate, fine. But the burden should not be shifted to charity. Our national history has proven how well that doesn't work.

 

[Azazel]

 

[Accountable]

Morality is determined by democratic societies.

Oh really?? Isn't that saying that morally right and morally wrong are nebulous constructs, apt to change with the whims of the majority? If the majority vote to ban abortion, does that make it moral?

It is morally right to take care of your fellow citizens, and the cost is negligible when 100% of the population contributes to health care and old age care. If the various religions want to participate, fine. But the burden should not be shifted to charity. Our national history has proven how well that doesn't work.

When? You're not going to fabricate some notion that the "Great" Depression was brought about because charity doesn't work, are you?