Let's Attack Iran!

mazHur

Well-Known Member
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Let's Attack Iran! Children with Matches

November 8, 2010

Oh good. I see that Senator Lindsey Graham wants to attack Iran. The US, he says, should "sink their navy, destroy their air force and deliver a decisive blow to the Revolutionary Guard."
Senator Graham has the brains of a tapeworm, making him eminently qualified for the senate. Tapeworms, I note, do not have brains. It is characteristic of warlike innocents, to include the Pentagon, to believe that if you destroy navies and air forces, you win wars. This worked well in Vietnam, you will recall, and as soon as we destroy the Taliban’s navy, Afghanistan will be a cakewalk.



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Now, I understand that practicality and realism are alien concepts in American politics, to be approached with trepidation, but maybe, just once, we should think before sticking our nose into a wood-chipper. Just once. I do not propose consistent rationality, forethought, or intelligent behavior. I profoundly respect my country’s traditions.
However, folk wisdom from West Virginia: 'Before you say, “I can whip any man in the bar!” it is well to scout the bar'.

Note that the United States cannot defeat Iran militarily, short of using nuclear weapons. It is easy to start a war. Finishing one is harder. I could punch out Mike Tyson. Things thereafter might not go as well as hoped.

Some will find the thought of American martial incapacity outrageous. Can’t beat Iran? Buncha towel monkeys? Among grrr-bowwow-woof patriots, there exists a heady delusion of American potency, that the US has “the greatest military power the world has ever seen.” Ah. And when did it last win a war? In Afghanistan, for ten years the gloriousest military ever known, the expensivist, and whoosh-bangiest, hasn’t managed to defeat a bunch of pissed-off illiterates with AKs and RPGs.
At this point Lindsey of Persia will doubtless allude to the wonders of air power, of “precision-guided weapons,” of smart bombs that presumably read Kant on the way down. Those pitiable Iranians would have no hope of stopping our mighty bombers. True.
Implicit in this Thomistic fantasy (Clancy, I mean, not Aquinas) is that Iran wouldn’t, couldn’t, wouldn’t dare fight back without a navy, etc. Lindsey had better be very sure that Iran couldn’t block the Strait of Hormuz in retaliation. Enough of the world’s petroleum comes from the Gulf that the price would rise drastically if the Straits were blocked. Some economies would simply stop.
How many supertankers going up in flames would be tolerated before operators of tankers refused to risk it?
Iran recently began serial production of the Nasr 1, an anti-ship cruise missile. Tankers are thin-skinned and highly flammable. The Nasr 1 can be fired from the back of a truck. Trucks by their nature are mobile. They are easy to hide.

The Air Force, to include Naval Air, may be confident that it can destroy all of Iran’s missiles. The Air Force always believes that air power can do anything and everything—make coffee, win at marbles, everything. After all, don’t its airplanes say “Vrooom!” and “Swoosh!”? Don’t cockpits have lots of portentous buttons and spiffy little screens? Unfortunately the Air Force is regularly wrong.
In fact the entire military is regularly wrong about the ease and duration of its adventures. For example, it had no idea that Viet Nam would turn into an endless war ending in defeat (if that makes sense). Iraq notoriously was going to be a walk in the park. That the war on Afghanistan would last ten years with a distinct possibility of defeat…this never occurred to the soldiers.
It is barely conceivable that the Five-Sided Wind Box could do what Field Marshal Graham thinks it could do. The unexpected is always a possibility. But, the stakes being what they would be in Hormuz, hoo-boy….
Another possibility is that Israel will attack Iran, as it has threatened. I would like to think that even Bibi Nut-and-Yahoo has better sense but, it the US can produce gibbering wingnuts, why not Israel? The practical effects of an Israeli attack would be indistinguishable from those of an American attack: America would have to solve the problem. Which it probably couldn’t. Israel can bomb Iran’s nuclear codpieces, but it can’t defeat Iran. And if the Strait were blocked after an Israeli attack, the entire globe would holler, “Israel did it!” which would be true.
The distance from “Israel did it” to “The Jews did it,” though logically great, is emotionally short. People think in collective terms. Remember that after some Saudis dropped the Towers, the alleged war on terror morphed almost instantly into intense hostility for Moslems. It doesn’t make sense, but what has that got to do with anything?
I know a lot of Jews, who are all over the place politically and intellectually. They have in common a complete lack of resemblance to the scheming, hand-rubbing, heh-heh-heh Jews of Neo-nazi imagination. Few sacrifice Christian children (a temptation strongest, I can attest, among Christian parents). But…people think collectively.
Congress doesn’t support Israel because it likes Israel, but from political expediency. If the wind blows the other way, so will Congress. Gasoline at twelve dollars is a lot of wind in a commuting country.
Things worsen for America, yet we really don’t know where the country is going or how it will react. The last domestic catastrophe was the Great Depression, when America was a very different place. How bad can things get, economically, politically, internationally? How does a pampered population incapable of planting a garden respond to genuinely hard times? “It can’t happen here,” one hears. What can’t? I suspect that all sorts of things could happen, given sufficiently hard times.
The United States is today an edgy, unhappy country, sliding toward poverty, increasingly dictatorial, inchoately angry, hostile to blacks, the French, Mexicans, Moslems and, creepingly, the Chinese. (Jews, perhaps to their surprise, don’t make the enemies list.) Americans don’t do cosmopolitian. The federal pressure for diversity exists because otherwise no one would associate with anyone else. The Persian Gulf is one of few places that plausibly might wreck the industrial world. There would have to be someone to blame. And Israel can’t survive without American suppport.
Maybe I’m crazy. But if I were an Israeli, I’d find a nice café on Diesengoff and enjoy a double cappucino, watch the girls, and keep my bombs in my pocket. Let somebody else take the fall.
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[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Obama Administration Claims Unchecked Authority to Kill Americans Outside Combat Zones[/FONT]
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http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/11/08-4

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration today argued before a federal court that it should have unreviewable authority to kill Americans the executive branch has unilaterally determined to pose a threat. Government lawyers made that claim in response to a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) charging that the administration's asserted targeted killing authority violates the Constitution and international law. The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia heard arguments from both sides today.

"If the Constitution means anything, it surely means that the president does not have unreviewable authority to summarily execute any American whom he concludes is an enemy of the state," said Jameel Jaffer, Deputy Legal Director of the ACLU, who presented arguments in the case."Not only does the administration claim to have sweeping power to target and kill U.S. citizens anywhere in the world, but it makes the extraordinary claim that the court has no role in reviewing that power or the legal standards that apply," said CCR Staff Attorney Pardiss Kebriaei, who presented arguments in the case. "The Supreme Court has repeatedly rejected the government's claim to an unchecked system of global detention, and the district court should similarly reject the administration's claim here to an unchecked system of global targeted killing."

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Comment:
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No, I didn't see this, but I heard about the case that prompted it.

There are some Americans that have become "terrorist" against America and the law says we can't do anything about it.

Yeah well, this is another "cat" that has gotten out of another bag.

The entire subject just makes my head shake.

I'm not sure it makes it dangerous just to talk, but I see your point that danger is pretty much everywhere in a world run by insanity...

These are reactions to war and/or the threat thereof...

Consequently, they must be at least as insane as the people making it all happen.
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America hasn't "won" a war in many decades. That may be true depending on your perspective. I would say they were highly effective in their warfare efforts in Iraq. They destroyed every target at will and captured every objective with ease, with a historically small number of casualties and collateral damage. They have be less than successful in the aftermath, but that is not war.

The reason why America hasn't "won" a lot of wars is that we fight with a different set of rules since WWII. We attempt to fight "clean" and "surgical" wars, targeting exclusively military objectives and personnel. Well guess what? You can't win a war that way. We don't have the stomach to do it properly anymore. The way you win a war is to overwhelm. We certainly did that to the Japanese, and could certainly do it to Iran. But more likely we would go in with orders and rules of engagement that would tie the military's hands behind its back. And we would be left chasing many tiny units of resistance as they scurry and dart into the shadows, all under the guise of not engaging "innocent" civilians.

Make no mistake, if we had the balls to go into Iran with the purpose of ENDING Iran as any type of threat to any other people for generations to come, we could. I, like many Americans find myself on the fence. My huminarian side accepts that we sometimes MUST engage an enemy, even if we're destined to "lose" by chosing clean warfare. The coldly truthful side of me says it's time to send a message to the world, once and for all, that we WILL stand up and say "Stop" to those who would seek to control, oppress and kill masses for their misguided reasons, and could care less how many bodies are laid out in the process.

I hope the rest of the world appreciates our restraint. Because it may not last forever.
 
Tangerine
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The way you win a war is to overwhelm. We certainly did that to the Japanese, and could certainly do it to Iran.

Tall claims you make......
Who killed innocent population in Nagasaki and Hiroshima??
You cannot fight the whole world, can you??
First try to get rid of Afghanistan which the US alongwith its allies has miserably failed for the last 10 years---the longest and perhaps the most expensive war in US history, killing or causing to be killed thousands of innocent victims!!

Oh, no.....God is Watching and Smiling ......
 
Tall claims you make......
Who killed innocent population in Nagasaki and Hiroshima??You cannot fight the whole world, can you??
First try to get rid of Afghanistan which the US alongwith its allies has miserably failed for the last 10 years---the longest and perhaps the most expensive war in US history, killing or causing to be killed thousands of innocent victims!!

Oh, no.....God is Watching and Smiling ......

right,i'm not american but i've read the books about this...and i'll always support what america did with those bombs.they did what they had to do......the japanese were beaten,they were on they're knees,but with the russian red army surging through china and looking like they'll run riot through the whole continant something needed to be done to stop them,those bombs did just that,no way would they contemplate taking on america with that weaponry,so they retreated back to russia,now consider how brutal the russians were at the time.its fair comment to say that the numbers that died in japan were tiny compared to how many might have died if russia had been allowed to carry on.
 
right,i'm not american but i've read the books about this...and i'll always support what america did with those bombs.they did what they had to do......the japanese were beaten,they were on they're knees,but with the russian red army surging through china and looking like they'll run riot through the whole continant something needed to be done to stop them,those bombs did just that,no way would they contemplate taking on america with that weaponry,so they retreated back to russia,now consider how brutal the russians were at the time.its fair comment to say that the numbers that died in japan were tiny compared to how many might have died if russia had been allowed to carry on.


The supposition that the US had to kill for the sake of Killing is not fair....it reflects belligerent
mentality, a desire to be the watchman of the world! Just imagine what would be the shape of
things IF Hitler had won and not ruined himself by deciding to attack Russia in frigid winters??
What was the outcome of WWII?? The victors enslaving the vanquished and distributing booty among themselves!!

You can think that way because you are living in a comfort zone...others who live around
the war fronts naturally feel different.

I don't think anybody can take over America...expansionism and colonialism has become a story of the past!
All that big powers have carteled is for natural resources of others and nice strategic places to set their
foot on to counter other rising powers!

There is a saying: Big Animals usually don't fight with each other...because they know if they fought and got wounded their survival would be put at darn risk. The same seems to go with humans...
 
America hasn't "won" a war in many decades. That may be true depending on your perspective. I would say they were highly effective in their warfare efforts in Iraq. They destroyed every target at will and captured every objective with ease, with a historically small number of casualties and collateral damage. They have be less than successful in the aftermath, but that is not war.

The reason why America hasn't "won" a lot of wars is that we fight with a different set of rules since WWII. We attempt to fight "clean" and "surgical" wars, targeting exclusively military objectives and personnel. Well guess what? You can't win a war that way. We don't have the stomach to do it properly anymore. The way you win a war is to overwhelm. We certainly did that to the Japanese, and could certainly do it to Iran. But more likely we would go in with orders and rules of engagement that would tie the military's hands behind its back. And we would be left chasing many tiny units of resistance as they scurry and dart into the shadows, all under the guise of not engaging "innocent" civilians.

Make no mistake, if we had the balls to go into Iran with the purpose of ENDING Iran as any type of threat to any other people for generations to come, we could. I, like many Americans find myself on the fence. My huminarian side accepts that we sometimes MUST engage an enemy, even if we're destined to "lose" by chosing clean warfare. The coldly truthful side of me says it's time to send a message to the world, once and for all, that we WILL stand up and say "Stop" to those who would seek to control, oppress and kill masses for their misguided reasons, and could care less how many bodies are laid out in the process.

I hope the rest of the world appreciates our restraint. Because it may not last forever.




I still don't understand what the US has gained by attacking and destroying Iraq??
And now Afghanistan??
The invasion of Iraq was on flimsy grounds (Bush admits that in his book) and it rested on
an excuse to eradicate Saddam!

The US can destroy the whole world with its weaponry but cannot win!
It hasn't won any war till this day!!( leaving out WWII)....

Next may be Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Korea, etc etc.........but if the US waged wars as it did in
WWII even its allies wouldn't stay with it!! Because all countries want peace....most of all EU
China, India and the Far East are not interested in warfare though ready to repel any invasion!
Let's not talk about the ugly war thing...war has never been good, only the innocent suffer, young and
handsome men lose their lives.....

Devastating countries and then rebuilding seems so funny , rather seems hypocritical???
 
The supposition that the US had to kill for the sake of Killing is not fair....it reflects belligerent
mentality, a desire to be the watchman of the world! Just imagine what would be the shape of
things IF Hitler had won and not ruined himself by deciding to attack Russia in frigid winters??
What was the outcome of WWII?? The victors enslaving the vanquished and distributing booty among themselves!!

You can think that way because you are living in a comfort zone...others who live around
the war fronts naturally feel different.

I don't think anybody can take over America...expansionism and colonialism has become a story of the past!
All that big powers have carteled is for natural resources of others and nice strategic places to set their
foot on to counter other rising powers!

There is a saying: Big Animals usually don't fight with each other...because they know if they fought and got wounded their survival would be put at darn risk. The same seems to go with humans...

but what the americans did was fair,they used the very country that attacked them and thus taking them to war to end hostilities in the pacific region

and yes,hitler had it all mapped out....treasures,gold and art had already been taken from conquered countries and relocated in berlin...and europe was to be known as germania with non germans living a life of servitude and obedience.
 
but what the americans did was fair,they used the very country that attacked them and thus taking them to war to end hostilities in the pacific region

and yes,hitler had it all mapped out....treasures,gold and art had already been taken from conquered countries and relocated in berlin...and europe was to be known as germania with non germans living a life of servitude and obedience.


are you trying to take atrocities of Hitler as precedence???
 
i'm stating fact


Hitler is a matter of FACT....he was influenced by Darwinism and went out as far as experimenting
on humans... he met his fate...Losing a battle is meeting one's fate, you know??
There is no win win for ever....no one...change is forever!!

Dragging anyone into war without a just cause cannot be said to be fair....
War against your enemies, that's okay, but warring against a whole people and setting rules of governance for them doesn't sound to be just..........Would you like to have someone interfering in your domestic affairs??
 
Hitler is a matter of FACT....he was influenced by Darwinism and went out as far as experimenting
on humans... he met his fate...Losing a battle is meeting one's fate, you know??
There is no win win for ever....no one...change is forever!!

Dragging anyone into war without a just cause cannot be said to be fair....
War against your enemies, that's okay, but warring against a whole people and setting rules of governance for them doesn't sound to be just..........Would you like to have someone interfering in your domestic affairs??

britain is part of the european union so we have to abide by european laws,be in immigration or human rights laws....they even tried to make curved cucumbers illegal
 
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