Lack of Ethics in Corporate America

[Minor Axis]

Naysayers can talk all they want about how they work long hours and this and that, but look at those countries, and the people without a "sweatshop" job, and see how many long hours they have to work to even TRY to support their families, usually in much worse working conditions than Nike provides.

Super rationalization, Spike. I'll put forth this counterpoint. Look at civilization and ask yourself in the spectrum of human existence are sweatshops a moral standard that employers should aspire to? It's practically legalized slavery lacking totally in any kind of workplace standards. Why are those jobs there, out of the goodness of employer's hearts? BS, man! There is a very good chance those jobs were decent $15 an hour manufacturing jobs in the U.S. but someone has decided they can pocket a higher percentage of profit by sending them to a place where labor is payed a pittance. And someone, some corporation is making themselves rich on the backs of the little people. It's amazing how poorly humans treat one another when the opportunity presents itself. No problem there, huh? :smiley24:

 

[SgtSpike]

Super rationalization, Spike. I'll put forth this counterpoint. Look at civilization and ask yourself in the spectrum of human existence are sweatshops a moral standard that employers should aspire to? It's practically legalized slavery lacking totally in any kind of workplace standards. Why are those jobs there, out of the goodness of employer's hearts? BS, man! There is a very good chance those jobs were decent $15 an hour manufacturing jobs in the U.S. but someone has decided they can pocket a higher percentage of profit by sending them to a place where labor is payed a pittance. And someone, some corporation is making themselves rich on the backs of the little people. It's amazing how poorly humans treat one another when the opportunity presents itself. No problem there, huh? :smiley24:

So what is your suggestion? Keep the manufacturing jobs in the US so that other third-world countries have no chance at industrialization and modernization? Sure the labor is cheap in those countries, and I'm not trying to suggest that companies move their work overseas out of the goodness of their heart or any nonsense like that. All I am saying is, it provides the people who work in them with a much better way to provide for their families than was previously available. It's downright poverty by American standards, but it upper class in those societies. But you are still saying it is wrong to provide these jobs for those people?

And if the US manufacturers were forced to keep their jobs in the US? Well, they'd just shut down their company operations in the US and start it up in another country. And if imports were banned in the US? Well, we'd get our manufacturing jobs back. The only problem is, a little tiny hotwheels car for your kid on Christmas would cost $10 and a box of legos with 100 pieces would cost $100. Do you really want that?

 

[KpAtch3s]

If 3rd world countries want the manufacturing jobs, then let them have them. They aren't taking anything away from Americans. It in fact means we will have cheaper products. That means more money in our pockets. Yay for sweatshops.

 

[canidae]

cheap

3 a: of inferior quality or worth :thumbdown

 

[KpAtch3s]

Ii fail to see where paying an American $15 vs someone else for 50 cents an hour has anything to do with the quality of the product.

low cost and quality are not opposites

 

[Haus]

If 3rd world countries want the manufacturing jobs, then let them have them. They aren't taking anything away from Americans. It in fact means we will have cheaper products. That means more money in our pockets. Yay for sweatshops.

that takes away the jobs Americans can have here. what if you had a job that was outsourced to another country and you wouldnt have the money to buy these ''cheaper products"

you buy these cheap products and then they break and have to keep on replacing them. your really not saving any money if thats the case.

all the companies care about is the bottom line so i understand why they do outsourcing but it takes away from jobs in america and there are millions and millions of people out of work and they have no money. and that doesnt america help either.

 

[canidae]

Ii fail to see where paying an American $15 vs someone else for 50 cents an hour has anything to do with the quality of the product.

low cost and quality are not opposites

There are two separate ideas here. The first being as you have stated. And I agree, low cost and quality can be synonymous - that use to be the American way of life.

But, there are now several cases in which low cost goods imported into this country have been of very low quality.

And yes, we overpay our workers, but why is that? I believe part of it has to do with the constant marketing brainwashing in this country that urges the marching morons to believe that more is never enough. "I'm in debt up to my eyeballs" has become our motto. The whole idea of spending 'up to' and beyond ones own means has become a way of life. It's the American 'live now, pay later, up yours' attitude that we now hold so dear. This attitude comes down from the very top of our government and corporate leadership. Our leaders are selling us out, for their own gains. It use to be they had the best interests of the country as their top priority, and could see how their actions today might affect the future. Now, the best pair of glasses could not fix their extreme short sightedness. And even if they could, those glasses would be made in China, be of poor quality, and have some sort of lead in the frames

 

[KpAtch3s]

that takes away the jobs Americans can have here. what if you had a job that was outsourced to another country and you wouldnt have the money to buy these ''cheaper products"

you buy these cheap products and then they break and have to keep on replacing them. your really not saving any money if thats the case.

all the companies care about is the bottom line so i understand why they do outsourcing but it takes away from jobs in america and there are millions and millions of people out of work and they have no money. and that doesnt america help either.

Your thought process is wrong. First of all the largest industry in America is the service industry. I can't remember the exact statistics but it's something like 80% of Americans work in that sector (number might be a bit high but I'll try to find a source for it, I know it's well over 50% though).

This whole idea of outsourcing wrecking American lives and destroying the economy is BS. Amercan's can adapt and find new work. They can educate themselves and make themselves worthwhile and set themselves up in a position that can't be outsourced.

Also, wtf wants to be stuck working in a manufacturing plant? That is a shitty fuckin job to have.

Also we need to clarify our definitions of what we mean when we say "cheap." Cheap can mean low cost or it can mean low quality or sometimes both.

Low cost doesn't have to mean low quality.

A higher quality product can be achieved through a simpler, better design, which uses fewer materials. This means you can produce a low cost product and still maintain high quality.

Consumers vote with their dollars. If there is a higher quality product consumers will purchase the better product while the other product goes to the wayside.

Lower wages = a lower cost product which translates to lower prices for us. It is a good thing. Paying 15$ an hour vs 50 cents an hour achieves nothing in the way of a better product. A quality product in that sense would come from more training for employees.

 

[KpAtch3s]

There are two separate ideas here. The first being as you have stated. And I agree, low cost and quality can be synonymous - that use to be the American way of life.

But, there are now several cases in which low cost goods imported into this country have been of very low quality.

And yes, we overpay our workers, but why is that? I believe part of it has to do with the constant marketing brainwashing in this country that urges the marching morons to believe that more is never enough. "I'm in debt up to my eyeballs" has become our motto. The whole idea of spending 'up to' and beyond ones own means has become a way of life. It's the American 'live now, pay later, up yours' attitude that we now hold so dear. This attitude comes down from the very top of our government and corporate leadership. Our leaders are selling us out, for their own gains. It use to be they had the best interests of the country as their top priority, and could see how their actions today might affect the future. Now, the best pair of glasses could not fix their extreme short sightedness. And even if they could, those glasses would be made in China, be of poor quality, and have some sort of lead in the frames

haha, yes, we've had a few things come into the US from China that have all posed as health risks. That has come from a lack of standards in China. Lets take the toothpaste incident, who was it? Colgate? Well it doesn't matter who it was. All that matters is it cost them a pretty penny to have it manufactured and shipped just to have to make a giant recall. This obviously doesn't help their bottom line. Things like this will happen every now and then, but because costs are so high with an incident of this nature they will take future precautions.

I don't believe low cost = high quality is a thing of the past.

Americans get paid so much because we want to achieve a higher quality of life. The best way to do this generally is to become more educated. A higher education demands more pay.

 

[canidae]

haha, yes, we've had a few things come into the US from China that have all posed as health risks. That has come from a lack of standards in China. Lets take the toothpaste incident, who was it? Colgate? Well it doesn't matter who it was. All that matters is it cost them a pretty penny to have it manufactured and shipped just to have to make a giant recall. This obviously doesn't help their bottom line. Things like this will happen every now and then, but because costs are so high with an incident of this nature they will take future precautions.

I don't believe low cost = high quality is a thing of the past.

Americans get paid so much because we want to achieve a higher quality of life. The best way to do this generally is to become more educated. A higher education demands more pay.

Ok, I agree with the education -----> more pay. But, it doesn't seem to matter how much more pay one gets - they will still spend beyond their means. I don't have any facts to back this theory up, only my attention to those that fit the theory, yet there seem to be plenty of them. And there is a difference between having a decent quality of life and just being ridiculous. No one needs a Escalade and an RV, etc. when having them means being in debt for the rest of their lives. Financial education could go a long way in helping that.

There are a dwindling few in this country that can afford twice the car, twice the house, twice the whatever, yet don't see the point in living like that, opting to live below their means in hopes of saving some money for, what's it called - the future.

Now, for those who bust their ass just to put food on the table, I definitely see the need for an increase in pay/quality of life - that should come directly out of the pockets of the CEOs who grossly profit off their backs.

 

[KpAtch3s]

I tend to agree with you as well about American's living beyond their means. It seems to be an increasing trend. I am not sure how that could have a direct impact on the pay employees are receiving. Corporations will still only pay what an employee is worth to them. The problem comes from a lack of fiscal responsibility associated with people and their credit cards. The housing situation I blame on the banks/government.

Here are a few interesting statistics I just found

• 76 percent of undergraduates have credit cards, and the average undergrad has $2,200 in credit card. Additionally, they will amass almost $20,000 in student debt. (Source: Nellie Mae, "Undergraduate Students and Credit Cards in 2004: An Analysis of Usage Rates and Trends")
• 41 percent of college students have a credit card. Of the students with cards, about 65 percent pay their bills in full every month, which is higher than the general adult population. (Source: Student Monitor annual financial services study, 2008)
• Average credit card debt per household -- regardless of whether they have a credit card or not -- was $8,329 at the end of 2008. (Source: Nilson Report, April 2009)
• The average outstanding credit card debt for households that have a credit card was $10,679 at the end of 2008. One year earlier, that average was $10,637. (Source: Nilson Report, April 2009

Credit card statistics, industry facts, debt statistics

OK, so shows me that things aren't nearly as bad as well all thought.

I'm not so much for cutting the pay of CEO's by forcing them to pay for the low guy on the totem pole. You should be paid according to skill and what you bring to the company. Not according to your need.

P.S. This thread is becoming even more interesting for me as I've just started a 6 weeks crash course on business ethics. Perhaps I'll more ideas or changes in ideas in the coming weeks.

 

[Minor Axis]

Every person in this country could have a college degree but what if there are not enough jobs to employ all of those graduates partially because corporations have tried to ship every manufacturing job out of the country that they could? Your consumer base has to have money to spend to keep the economy chugging. Corporations think in individual terms, how much we could save without considering that if enough corporations do likewise, the customer base will be severely degraded and the overall standard of living in our country will be trashed. The people in this forum who scream they want free-wheeling unregulated capitalism seem to think everything will right itself and be good for all. I don't think so...

 

[KpAtch3s]

Every person in this country could have a college degree but what if there are not enough jobs to employ all of those graduates partially because corporations have tried to ship every manufacturing job out of the country that they could? Your consumer base has to have money to spend to keep the economy chugging. Corporations think in individual terms, how much we could save without considering that if enough corporations do likewise, the customer base will be severely degraded and the overall standard of living in our country will be trashed. The people in this forum who scream they want free-wheeling unregulated capitalism seem to think everything will right itself and be good for all. I don't think so...

College education required to work in a manufacturing plant? lol Yea, because the population in the 3rd world countries where those jobs get outsourced is educated. :24:

 

[Minor Axis]

College education required to work in a manufacturing plant? lol Yea, because the population in the 3rd world countries where those jobs get outsourced is educated. :24:

Mr Brain, who do you think manages those plants?

 

[KpAtch3s]

Mr Brain, who do you think manages those plants?

Expatriate's or third country nationals

 

[SgtSpike]

that takes away the jobs Americans can have here. what if you had a job that was outsourced to another country and you wouldnt have the money to buy these ''cheaper products"

you buy these cheap products and then they break and have to keep on replacing them. your really not saving any money if thats the case.

all the companies care about is the bottom line so i understand why they do outsourcing but it takes away from jobs in america and there are millions and millions of people out of work and they have no money. and that doesnt america help either.

In the same manner, farming tractors take away jobs from the farm hands. Why isn't there a huge uproar over that? Because there are better jobs out there.

If people get laid off because their manufacturing job went overseas, then they are more inspired to go to college, get an education, and find a better paying, better conditions job. What's not to like? If we didn't progress like that, we'd all still be stuck plowing fields by hand, in the name of making sure everyone has a "job" (i.e. something to do).

There's always going to be some level of unemployment, and it has nothing to do with manufacturing jobs leaving the US. Those people who were in manufacturing will find other jobs.

Ok, I agree with the education -----> more pay. But, it doesn't seem to matter how much more pay one gets - they will still spend beyond their means. I don't have any facts to back this theory up, only my attention to those that fit the theory, yet there seem to be plenty of them. And there is a difference between having a decent quality of life and just being ridiculous. No one needs a Escalade and an RV, etc. when having them means being in debt for the rest of their lives. Financial education could go a long way in helping that.

There are a dwindling few in this country that can afford twice the car, twice the house, twice the whatever, yet don't see the point in living like that, opting to live below their means in hopes of saving some money for, what's it called - the future.

Now, for those who bust their ass just to put food on the table, I definitely see the need for an increase in pay/quality of life - that should come directly out of the pockets of the CEOs who grossly profit off their backs.

The problem is, if you pay someone the same amount of money for being a clerk at wally world that you do for an engineer designing an innovative new vehicle, then inflation will persist. Because people are paid more, prices will rise (supply & demand at work), engineers will start to be paid much more, and then you'll be right back where you started. It's why the minimum wage DOESN'T WORK.

As was previously stated, people need to be paid by the value they provide to the company, not by how much they "need" the money. If you want socialism, find another country.

 

[canidae]

In the same manner, farming tractors take away jobs from the farm hands. Why isn't there a huge uproar over that? Because there are better jobs out there.

If people get laid off because their manufacturing job went overseas, then they are more inspired to go to college, get an education, and find a better paying, better conditions job. What's not to like? If we didn't progress like that, we'd all still be stuck plowing fields by hand, in the name of making sure everyone has a "job" (i.e. something to do).

There's always going to be some level of unemployment, and it has nothing to do with manufacturing jobs leaving the US. Those people who were in manufacturing will find other jobs.


The problem is, if you pay someone the same amount of money for being a clerk at wally world that you do for an engineer designing an innovative new vehicle, then inflation will persist. Because people are paid more, prices will rise (supply & demand at work), engineers will start to be paid much more, and then you'll be right back where you started. It's why the minimum wage DOESN'T WORK.

As was previously stated, people need to be paid by the value they provide to the company, not by how much they "need" the money. If you want socialism, find another country.

Ok, let me clarify here - I'm not in any way saying that people should be paid by their need, and I apologize if that's the way it came across. My point was, that certain levels of businesses grow exponentially without reason. I know for a fact where I use to work a senior vice president continued to be paid though he'd been in semi-retirement and had zero input within the company. That money could have gone to those who were actually working, yes?

So definitely pay people what they are worth, but you see in the above case someone was getting payed for literally doing nothing. And I am sure corporations all over the country have similar situations, where some get paid to play while the people actually doing the work get screwed.

And BTW - fuck socialism . . . just sayin'

 

[SgtSpike]

Ok, let me clarify here - I'm not in any way saying that people should be paid by their need, and I apologize if that's the way it came across. My point was, that certain levels of businesses grow exponentially without reason. I know for a fact where I use to work a senior vice president continued to be paid though he'd been in semi-retirement and had zero input within the company. That money could have gone to those who were actually working, yes?

So definitely pay people what they are worth, but you see in the above case someone was getting payed for literally doing nothing. And I am sure corporations all over the country have similar situations, where some get paid to play while the people actually doing the work get screwed.

And BTW - fuck socialism . . . just sayin'

Yes, I completely agree that there are discrepancies in the pay systems in some companies. Often, people will be paid far below or far above what they are truly worth. But I do NOT believe that government intervention or regulation is the answer, which you seem to be suggesting. That detailed a level of government regulation within America's corporations will kill business here. It would give the government far too much control over people and companies methinks, not to mention that I doubt the government would be any better than a business manager at deciding what the fair wage for a given employee would be.

I do not have a solution, other than to just live with it. Some people are going to get overpaid, some people are going to get underpaid, and that's life. Life's not always fair.

 

[canidae]

Yes, I completely agree that there are discrepancies in the pay systems in some companies. Often, people will be paid far below or far above what they are truly worth. But I do NOT believe that government intervention or regulation is the answer, which you seem to be suggesting. That detailed a level of government regulation within America's corporations will kill business here. It would give the government far too much control over people and companies methinks, not to mention that I doubt the government would be any better than a business manager at deciding what the fair wage for a given employee would be.

I do not have a solution, other than to just live with it. Some people are going to get overpaid, some people are going to get underpaid, and that's life. Life's not always fair.

And I apologize yet again if somehow I led you to believe that i was suggesting the government was the solution to the problem. The government is part OF the problem, IMO. And like you, I have nothing in the way of resolutions. As long as humans are involved it will eventually get screwed up.

So now that makes me sound like I want machines to take over things :ninja

 

[SgtSpike]

And I apologize yet again if somehow I led you to believe that i was suggesting the government was the solution to the problem. The government is part OF the problem, IMO. And like you, I have nothing in the way of resolutions. As long as humans are involved it will eventually get screwed up.

So now that makes me sound like I want machines to take over things :ninja

Haha, ok, understood. And I completely agree.