Justice or Revenge

[dt3]

I absolutely love how the anti-death penalty crowd always jumps up on their moral high horse and talks down to the other side. It's a great way to make a point.

 

[Maritxu]

I am sorry if my post made you think that about me, but you couldn't be more wrong. I do not think I am morally better than any of you, actually if I would have written the groups as Grace did, you would have read that I sympathize with every one of them, weather they support death penalty or not, and regardless of my opinion, which may differ.

 

[Maritxu]

For instance,

(1 group) that does not agree with the death penalty and calls it revenge (I disagree with this group as they are making up their own definitions to words)

I don't think this is a realistic group or should be spilled in two, but anyway.

(2 group) that does not agree with the death penalty and understands it to be a sentence to carry out justice (I respect this stance even though I don't agree)

This would onlty be valid thinking about a place like America, where Death Penalty still exists.

There are a lot of reasons to be against the death penalty, I have mine and other people have theirs, all of them are valid and understandable.

(3 group) agrees with the death penalty and sees it as a way of getting revenge (I don't agree with this group even though my physical/flesh side has to fight feelings of revenge occasionally as well)

THis could be the only group I would have problems comming to agreement because I don't think revenge is a good thing. But I understand is as a human impulse when we see something horrible happening to an innocent person, so I symphatize too.

(4 group) agrees with the death penalty and understands it as a means to justice being served (I agree)

This 4th group I also disagree with but I respect because I know that their ideas or morality are based in the justice system and doing what they think is fair and just for their country/citizens. They argue their reasons in a calmed way and it's fun to debate with them.

 

[dt3]

I'm better than a murderer, more forgiving, more human.

I am sorry if my post made you think that about me, but you couldn't be more wrong. I do not think I am morally better than any of you.

You didn't specifically say it, and it wasn't just your post, but the common theme between all the anti posts seems to be calling supporters murderers and saying they're no better than the people who are executed. Which is complete bullshit in my opinion. Just because I believe some people don't deserve to live doesn't make me like the guy who raped and buried a 9 year old girl alive.

 

[All Else Failed]

Yeah but YOU are the one putting yourself on a hypothetical high horse when deciding on who deserves death or not.

 

[dt3]

Yeah but YOU are the one putting yourself on a hypothetical high horse when deciding on who deserves death or not.

In your opinion.


I don't decide who dies. No single person does. That's how the system was set up.

 

[All Else Failed]

In your opinion.


I don't decide who dies. No single person does. That's how the system was set up.

Then it just extends to those who actually do the deciding.


Meh, I'm getting bored of this topic.

 

[dt3]

Then it just extends to those who actually do the deciding.


Meh, I'm getting bored of this topic.

Yep, they're all hypocrites for following the laws set forth by the government they're sworn to serve.

 

[All Else Failed]

Basically. Just because its a law doesn't make it right.

 

[dt3]

Yet it's been 230+ years and we're still going strong.

 

[All Else Failed]

Yet it's been 230+ years and we're still going strong.

That has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think death penalty is being interpretated as part of justice and that is why you agree with it, right?

It is part of our justice system, yes. I understand it is not a part of your justice system.

jus·tice (jŭs'tĭs)

n.

1. The quality of being just; fairness.
2. 1. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
   2. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3. 1. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
   2. Law. The administration and procedure of law.
4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason: The overcharged customer was angry, and with justice.
5. (Abbr. J.) Law.
   1. A judge.
   2. A justice of the peace.

justice
noun

1. The quality or state of being just and unbiased: detachment, disinterest, disinterestedness, dispassion, dispassionateness, equitableness, fair-mindedness, fairness, impartiality, impartialness, justness, nonpartisanship, objectiveness, objectivity. See fair/unfair.
2. The state, action, or principle of treating all persons equally in accordance with the law: due process, equity. See right/wrong.
3. A public official who decides cases brought before a court of law in order to administer justice: judge, jurisprudent, jurist, justice of the peace, magistrate. See decide/hesitate, law.

Note that REVENGE is not a SYNONYM for Justice.

re·venge play_w("R0204000") (r

-v

nj

) tr.v. re·venged, re·veng·ing, re·veng·es 1. To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult).
2. To seek or take vengeance for (oneself or another person); avenge.

n.1. The act of taking vengeance for injuries or wrongs; retaliation.
2. Something done in vengeance; a retaliatory measure.
3. A desire for revenge; spite or vindictiveness.
4. An opportunity to retaliate, as by a return sports match after a defeat.

revenge
noun

1. The act of retaliating: counteraction, counterattack, counterblow, reciprocation, reprisal, requital, retaliation, retribution, tit for tat, vengeance. [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Idioms: [/SIZE][/FONT] an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, like for like , measure for measure . See attack, forgiveness
2. The quality or condition of being vindictive: spite, spitefulness, vengefulness, vindictiveness. See forgiveness

Note that JUSTICE is not a SYNONYM for revenge.

I wanted to remind you all that some people in this forum don't live in countries where the death penalty is still practised. And I have said before, that something is legal or carried out by the state doesn't make it good.

I understand and agree. I do not however feel that way about the death penalty. I respect your right to your differing opinion.

And about Grace's question, I don't think I fit in any of your groups.

That's because I wrote it from the perspective of someone living in a country where the death penalty is a legal consequence for heinous crimes. I didn't purposely mean to leave an option out for you.

The only thing that is clear is that I'm against death penalty. I happen to believe I am nobody to decide who lives or dies, I happen to believe too, I'm better than a murderer, more forgiving, more human.

On one hand you say your are nobody. Then on the next you say you are better than. I'm not trying to put you on the defensive here. I am hoping that you will really look at the context of those two sentences one right after the other. Maybe you wrote them in haste. I certainly am not going to pick your words apart if this is the case, just pointing out the contradiction.

I do think a great number of people think death penalty is about revenge

I agree with you and I do not think that it is right either, but not everyone that agrees with the death penalty has the spirit of revenge.

One last thing Grace, I thought it was funny you sympathize with revengeful people, but not with those who oppose the death of a human being, why?

This is not true. Read my comments:

Originally Posted by GraceAbounds

(2 group) that does not agree with the death penalty and understands it to be a sentence to carry out justice (I respect this stance even though I don't agree)

This is not an attack

Your post did not come across as attacking in anyway.

 

[icecuban]

Being a person of faith and non-violence and compassion, im going to be biased in any type of answer i give,lol, so i'm going to direct this to you Grace, since your someone who's answers stem from a similar faith, .....What happened to the first murderer in the Bible? What was God's "justice" for this quintessential murderer?
Cain was not put to death, but cast off, out of land that bore fruit, and off to wonder on his own, without the feeling of God, and labeled as a "Fugitive" (for others to know what he has done). Cain was then scared for his own well being, and said...

"My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me"

But God tells him otherwise, and not so as to much take pity on Cain, but foresees what a non-compassionate human heart would do if they found him...

"Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

Then God puts a mark on Cain, showing he is a murderer, for all to know what will happen to them if they are to hurt this type of person. To me, its like God saying "Back the Fuck Off anyone who comes around this type of person, for if I did not kill him through my own powers, what right does a person think they have when trying to bring down the guillotine's blade?" I think God knows the vengeance that lies in a persons heart, and did this as a test to the believer. Can we say that our "justice" is above His? Do we think that since our country has been around for a handful of generations (bunch of immigrants, lol ), we can turn the lights out on whoever "we" deem necessary?

This much I know is true....... whoever is pro execution, and gains some sort of satisfaction from seeing a criminal be brought to justice through death, whether its a stranger, or in Abels case, a family memeber (which should be anyone on earth, damnit, lol), then something is wrong. If I was pro-execution, and I gained some sort of pleasure from seeing it done, then I would wish to have that part of me put to death, and in its stead, have no feeling of gain or satisfaction whatsoever. I would make it a point to go out into the world and try and turn every possible murderer into a peace giver before they get the chance to spread anger. By doing this, I would be preventing the same thing happening to someone else, instead of spending my time searching down the murderer and killing.

I do not know where you stand on what I said Grace. I do know you believe in similar ways as I do, and I also know your pro-execution. For this reason I must ask you this stuff to probe your brain, and put my own faith and ideas to the test!,lol.

 

[dt3]

That has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

Well, if a large majority found our system unjust, unfair, or hypocritical, it stands to reason that at some point in the last 230 years it would've been changed or they would've left.

 

[GraceAbounds]

Icecubeban, I posted a couple of really long posts in the the execution thread in reference to this subject and the Bible. If you would like to look for them they are there somewhere between pages 16 and 20 I believe. I think that those posts will help you to understand my thinking on the matter and the studies I've done.

If you would like me to comment on your above post, or have a spiritual discussion, I'd be happy to do so through pm's with you.

btw, I agree with this:

This much I know is true....... whoever is pro execution, and gains some sort of satisfaction from seeing a criminal be brought to justice through death, whether its a stranger, or in Abels case, a family memeber (which should be anyone on earth, damnit, lol), then something is wrong. If I was pro-execution, and I gained some sort of pleasure from seeing it done, then I would wish to have that part of me put to death, and in its stead, have no feeling of gain or satisfaction whatsoever. I would make it a point to go out into the world and try and turn every possible murderer into a peace giver before they get the chance to spread anger. By doing this, I would be preventing the same thing happening to someone else, instead of spending my time searching down the murderer and killing.

 

[All Else Failed]

Well, if a large majority found our system unjust, unfair, or hypocritical, it stands to reason that at some point in the last 230 years it would've been changed or they would've left.

A large majority does see it as unjust, but unfortunately they do not act on their views.

 

[HisHoliness]

A large majority does see it as unjust, but unfortunately they do not act on their views.

I would disagree with this statement until you can produce evidence of this. I cannot take your word for it that a large majority (well over 50%) would feel this way without acting on it. My gut feeling is that in reality, the circumstances are the exact opposite and that your views; however right or wrong they may be, are a minority view.

 

[icecuban]

Icecubeban, I posted a couple of really long posts in the the execution thread in reference to this subject and the Bible. If you would like to look for them they are there somewhere between pages 16 and 20 I believe. I think that those posts will help you to understand my thinking on the matter and the studies I've done.

If you would like me to comment on your above post, or have a spiritual discussion, I'd be happy to do so through pm's with you.

btw, I agree with this:

I will have to read them, again, for sure . I thought we may have been talking about the death penalty because of some posts on this thread, sorry.....I do remember the part about Romans 13 (in the execution thread) and about the authorities, and how we should submit to the given authorities. The authorities that we appoint, may not be good through and through, but it is what me must obey, because the majority of our people say so, and no one is above the majority (let alone another person). In this sense, I do believe that we deserve the authority of today. Roman law was not just, but they were asked to obey. I mean, did not Roman law put Jesus to death? But thats what God intended,because an injust system is going to be a product of an injust majority, and thats one of Gods special punishments, I believe,lol, karma in a way,lol. I think that with a deserving society, you will get an equally deserving government.....if you think our society is just enough to have a perfect government, then that is a matter of opinion...

As for the post above mine, about our country and having a majority disagree, and how "old" our country is (compared to who?) and such. What does the majority have to say about this.... Person A gets arrested for drugs, as does Person B. Person A provides information on some bigger drug people, and he gets a very small sentence. Person B has no information to give, because he really doesnt know anyone, but gets a very long sentence. Person A and Person B commited the same "crime" within our justice system, but one person gets less punishment then the other, because he can provide something that the other one cant (not wont, but cant). Where is the justice in this? Where is the lesson learned? Is this what you would teach children as right? A potato is not always a potato? Yet, it is a standard procedure in our System.

 

[Maritxu]

You didn't specifically say it, and it wasn't just your post, but the common theme between all the anti posts seems to be calling supporters murderers and saying they're no better than the people who are executed. Which is complete bullshit in my opinion. Just because I believe some people don't deserve to live doesn't make me like the guy who raped and buried a 9 year old girl alive.

Here's where the misunderstending is (to both you and Grace). It seems that the way I worded it, it came out like I mean supporters are as bad as murderers. I do not think that at all. I don't think you can compare, and of course a person, who even revengefully thinks he wants someone to die and says it, is not as bad as a murderer. It's totally different and I apologize for the confussion. All I wanted to say is that I don't think I have the moral right to say if somebody should live or not. I try to judge the minimun (taking into account that I'm human and we always do it) and this is also the case.

 

[Maritxu]

Hmm I thought that Jesus said: [SIZE=-1]Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... My motivations, politically, as person, as woman, in every single part of my life are actually based on the teaching of Jesus. I hope that helps you clarify where I'm comming from. Other than that you can read the
[/SIZE]Universal Declaration of Human Rights

[SIZE=-1]That explains my persona pretty well
[/SIZE]