Is war murder?

[dt3]

I was just gonna let this go, but somebody has to say it...

Would you guys rather have some terrorists take out two of our buildings with jets, or would you rather have our country bombed again, like Pearl Harbor?

I don't know about some of you, but if I had to choose, I'd give up the towers in a second.

Pearl Harbor was a legitimate military target, filled with military men and women who knew the risks and were trained for such a situation.

The WTC was a tower full of civilians going to work.

Any sane person would pick Pearl Harbor any day.

With Pearl Harbor, we took action after about a year. Or was it sooner?

We declared war literally the day after.

 

[All Else Failed]

I agree with dt3. The WTCs and pearl harbor aren't even that comparable.

 

[dt3]

I agree with dt3.

Hope you don't mind if that goes in my sig

 

[Homer]

I was just gonna let this go, but somebody has to say it...



Pearl Harbor was a legitimate military target, filled with military men and women who knew the risks and were trained for such a situation.

The WTC was a tower full of civilians going to work.

Any sane person would pick Pearl Harbor any day.



We declared war literally the day after.

:clapwell put.

 

[All Else Failed]

Hope you don't mind if that goes in my sig

People will begin to talk!


>_>

<_<

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

People who are currently enlisting or people who enlist in general? I know a lot of people who enlisted before 9/11 who didn't know at the time there would be a war. It happened with my great-uncle and Vietnam and my grandfather and WWII. BUt everyone who enlist has to be ready for the possibility of a war.

People who enlist in general. When you ienlist, there is ALWAYS the possibility of war, and you can't enlist and then go, "Holy shit, when did they say we'd go to war? I quit!".

We declared war literally the day after.

No, I meant didn't we physically go to Tokyo a year after, or was it a few days?

Yeah, it's not like 2,749 people died. :withstupid:

I never said that, so don't assume that.

In Pearl Harbor, they attacked us with over 360 planes in three waves. At the time, we had 96 vessels, the bulk of the United States Pacific Fleet. Army forces in Hawaii, including the 24th and 25th Infantry Divisions, were under the command of Lt. Gen. Walter C. Short, Commanding General of the Hawaiian Department. On the several airfields were a total of about 390 Navy and Army planes of all types, of which less than 300 were available for combat or observation purposes.

All together the Japanese sank or severely damaged 18 ships, including the 8 battleships, three light cruisers, and three destroyers. On the airfields the Japanese destroyed 161 American planes (Army 74, Navy 87) and seriously damaged 102 (Army 71, Navy 31).

The Navy and Marine Corps suffered a total of 2,896 casualties of which 2,117 were deaths (Navy 2,008, Marines 109) and 779 wounded (Navy 710, Marines 69). The Army (as of midnight, 10 December) lost 228 killed or died of wounds, 113 seriously wounded and 346 slightly wounded. In addition, at least 57 civilians were killed and nearly as many seriously injured.

The Japanese lost 29 planes over Oahu, one large submarine (on 10 December), and all five of the midget submarines. Their personnel losses (according to Japanese sources) were 55 airmen, nine crewmen on the midget submarines, and an unknown number on the large submarines. The Japanese carrier task force sailed away undetected and unscathed.

This means, at Pearl Harbor, casualties totaled 2,515.

In 9-11, there were 2,974 casualties, not including the 19 hijackers.

Now, of course, we lost more people in 9-11. I never said it wasn't sad, what happened in 9-11 was a tragedy, no doubt, and we didn't deserve such an unprovoked attack. But we didn't lose things like military machinary. We lost two buildings. Which is why it was so crippling, because normally we could just retaliate so quickly, but in this case, they had destroyed everything we would have used to retaliate.

I never said 9-11 wasn't tragic, but we should be glad that all we lost this time in terms of objects of importance. At least with this attack, we had the ability to retaliate as soon as possible. With Pearl Harbor, they destroyed our means of retaliation.

 

[dt3]

People who enlist in general. When you ienlist, there is ALWAYS the possibility of war, and you can't enlist and then go, "Holy shit, when did they say we'd go to war? I quit!".



No, I meant didn't we physically go to Tokyo a year after, or was it a few days?



I never said that, so don't assume that.

In Pearl Harbor, they attacked us with over 360 planes in three waves. At the time, we had 96 vessels, the bulk of the United States Pacific Fleet. Army forces in Hawaii, including the 24th and 25th Infantry Divisions, were under the command of Lt. Gen. Walter C. Short, Commanding General of the Hawaiian Department. On the several airfields were a total of about 390 Navy and Army planes of all types, of which less than 300 were available for combat or observation purposes.

All together the Japanese sank or severely damaged 18 ships, including the 8 battleships, three light cruisers, and three destroyers. On the airfields the Japanese destroyed 161 American planes (Army 74, Navy 87) and seriously damaged 102 (Army 71, Navy 31).

The Navy and Marine Corps suffered a total of 2,896 casualties of which 2,117 were deaths (Navy 2,008, Marines 109) and 779 wounded (Navy 710, Marines 69). The Army (as of midnight, 10 December) lost 228 killed or died of wounds, 113 seriously wounded and 346 slightly wounded. In addition, at least 57 civilians were killed and nearly as many seriously injured.

The Japanese lost 29 planes over Oahu, one large submarine (on 10 December), and all five of the midget submarines. Their personnel losses (according to Japanese sources) were 55 airmen, nine crewmen on the midget submarines, and an unknown number on the large submarines. The Japanese carrier task force sailed away undetected and unscathed.

This means, at Pearl Harbor, casualties totaled 2,515.

In 9-11, there were 2,974 casualties, not including the 19 hijackers.

Now, of course, we lost more people in 9-11. I never said it wasn't sad, what happened in 9-11 was a tragedy, no doubt, and we didn't deserve such an unprovoked attack. But we didn't lose things like military machinary. We lost two buildings. Which is why it was so crippling, because normally we could just retaliate so quickly, but in this case, they had destroyed everything we would have used to retaliate.

I never said 9-11 wasn't tragic, but we should be glad that all we lost this time in terms of objects of importance. At least with this attack, we had the ability to retaliate as soon as possible. With Pearl Harbor, they destroyed our means of retaliation.

Do you not realize the difference between attacking a strategic military target and attacking innocent civilians?

You would really rather have civilians be attacked on our own soil than our men and women who have signed up to defend our nation knowing the risks that come with it?

As far as our ability to retaliate, we fire-bombed Tokyo four months later
Doolittle Raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

Do you not realize the difference between attacking a strategic military target and attacking innocent civilians?

You would really rather have civilians be attacked on our own soil than our men and women who have signed up to defend our nation knowing the risks that come with it?

As far as our ability to retaliate, we fire-bombed Tokyo four months later
Doolittle Raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know about the Doolittle Raid. And yes, I'd rather have civilians attacked. I'd much rather not have an attack at all, but I'd rather keep our military men and women, becauce if attacked, they can defend themselves and us. We can't. They can save us.

 

[All Else Failed]

I know ab out the Doolittle Raid. ANd yes, I'd rather have civilians attacked. I'd much rather not have an attack at all, but I'd rather keep our military men and women, becauce if attacked, they can defend themselves and us. We can't. They can save us.

No you see, the military depends on civilians just as much as me might "rely" on the military in a time of need.

 

[dt3]

I\ANd yes, I'd rather have civilians attacked.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the ignorance of that comment.

 

[Tim]

The big difference now is our technology. Back when Pearl harbor was attacked, we didn't see them coming and it was a surprise attack. That wouldn't happen today with our military. If there were airplanes screaming towards one of our military bases, they would be shot down long before they could do any harm. I would much rather see an attempted attack on our military than our civilian population, the military has the means to protect itself, the general population must wait for the military to act to protect them. And that makes the population an easier target. I'd also like to point out that 9/11 wouldn't have been as bad as it was if our national air defense was a little more alert. You will never find a military base that would be left unguarded like the towers were.

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

I simply cannot wrap my head around the ignorance of that comment.

You are twisting everything I say out of context.

Here's the situation: We get bombed, we call the military, they save us, and retaliate.

Now, try this one: Our military forces are bombed, most of our forces are dead and destroyed. This leaves us vulnerable to a second, and even third attack wave, because we have nobody to go out and stop them.

And Tim, you did point out something big: This nation needs better civilian security. As you said, a terrorist plane couldn't get within 100 miles of our bases without being shot down. That's what we need these days with national security.

And actually, Pearl Harbor wasn't so much a surprise attack. They sent us a message, it's just that by the time we had deciphered it and sent it to our military, it was already an hour too late.

 

[Tim]

You are twisting everything I say out of context.

Here's the situation: We get bombed, we call the military, they save us, and retaliate.

Now, try this one: Our military forces are bombed, most of our forces are dead and destroyed. This leaves us vulnerable to a second, and even third attack wave, because we have nobody to go out and stop them.

We have military bases embedded through out the world... that is not a likely scenario that any attack would cripple our military.

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

We have military bases embedded through out the world... that is not a likely scenario that any attack would cripple our military.

Well you get the point I'm trying to make. Of course we've got military bases everywhere, it's just that out of the two scenarious, the military scenario puts us as a nation at more of a risk, because in the time it takes them to recover and plan a retaliation, we can suffer more attacks, whereas if the civilian population is just attacked, they can go into action immediately.

 

[Tim]

And actually, Pearl Harbor wasn't so much a surprise attack. They sent us a message, it's just that by the time we had deciphered it and sent it to our military, it was already an hour too late.

there are some that say the president knew that the attack was coming and did nothing to stop it so we would have a reason to enter the war... and the message you refer to was intercepted from the enemy, it wasn't sent to us. It doesn't matter, the basic principle was that it was a surprise attack as far as the base at Pearl harbor was concerned.

 

[All Else Failed]

You are twisting everything I say out of context.

Here's the situation: We get bombed, we call the military, they save us, and retaliate.

Now, try this one: Our military forces are bombed, most of our forces are dead and destroyed. This leaves us vulnerable to a second, and even third attack wave, because we have nobody to go out and stop them.

And Tim, you did point out something big: This nation needs better civilian security. As you said, a terrorist plane couldn't get within 100 miles of our bases without being shot down. That's what we need these days with national security.

And actually, Pearl Harbor wasn't so much a surprise attack. They sent us a message, it's just that by the time we had deciphered it and sent it to our military, it was already an hour too late.

Except that can never happen and wasn't even the case in Pearl Harbor.


Actually Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack. All of the conspiracy theorists that say we let pearl harbor happen, we "knew" about it ahead of time are being dishonest, since that decoded message was among thousands and thousands of messages that needed to be decoded and was only decoded after the attack happened.

 

[dt3]

You are twisting everything I say out of context.

I asked you to clarify and you said the exact same thing. You would rather have terrorists attack our civilian population than our military.

Now, try this one: Our military forces are bombed, most of our forces are dead and destroyed. This leaves us vulnerable to a second, and even third attack wave, because we have nobody to go out and stop them.

That's exactly why we dont have everybody on one big base.

 

[All Else Failed]

Well you get the point I'm trying to make. Of course we've got military bases everywhere, it's just that out of the two scenarious*, the military scenario puts us as a nation at more of a risk, because in the time it takes them to recover and plan a retaliation, we can suffer more attacks, whereas if the civilian population is just attacked, they can go into action immediately.

scenarios*


Sorry, I'm a grammar Nazi.

 

[Dodge_Sniper]

Except that can never happen and wasn't even the case in Pearl Harbor.


Actually Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack. All of the conspiracy theorists that say we let pearl harbor happen, we "knew" about it ahead of time are being dishonest, since that decoded message was among thousands and thousands of messages that needed to be decoded and was only decoded after the attack happened.

See, you're putting words in my mouth again damnit. I said that we didn't decipher the message IN TIME. Jesus, why don't you stop thinking of what to type next, and try reading for once.

scenarios*


Sorry, I'm a grammar Nazi.

Wow, I accidently added ONE wrong letter. It happens when you type as fast as I do. I can type about 200 words a minute.

 

[Reaver]

Wow, I accidently added ONE wrong letter. It happens when you type as fast as I do. I can type about 200 words a minute.

BAMF

/sarcasm