Is Suicide Bombing ever justified?

[Minor Axis]

My short answer is "yes". But read on before you condemn the statement.

There are people who will say suicide bombing is justifiable when it is the only way down trodden people can fight superior forces. We have seen them in this forum. When you are at war you at war and it may be the only workable tactic you have. However this tactic comes under the umbrella of war crimes depending upon how it is utilized.

I don't have a problem with suicide bombing as a tactic of war when it used against military targets. Is it any different than firing at your enemy with a gun? Or shelling a base with mortars? No it's not. On the other hand because of this, I don't have a problem at checkpoints when innocent people are gunned down by U.S. military forces when they don't follow instructions such as stopping when commanded to. U.S. forces have a right to defend themselves.

The rub I have with suicide bombers is when the tactic is used indiscriminately in public places to cause general havoc. In this case it amounts to war crimes and murder IMO. There are many many instances, in fact most examples of these attacks involve public places attacking no specific military target, but the general public. I've always wondered for example when you are an Iraqi in Iraq and you blow up a bunch of Iraqis, how you expect this to endear the average Iraqi to your cause? And I wonder what kind of rationalization it takes to think that blowing up the local market somehow endears you in God's eyes?

One more thing, I hate the fact that U.S. and allied military personnel are blown up by any kind of bomb whether it be a suicide bomb or roadside bomb, just as I hate the fact they are dying in a war (by any means) which at times seems to be a monumental expense with relatively little gained.

 

[Springsteen]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

The problem is I think when people think 'Suicide Bombing' they think of it as killing innocent people, without thinking of the other part of and that is as you say blowing up military targets. I'm not sure whether that can be justified because there might be innocent people there regardless.

It's a really fine line.

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

I agree completely. As a tactic of war, there's no legitimate reasoning against it. Part of Marine Combat Training was how to properly move bodies because of the chance that they laid on a grenade before they died and when you roll them over the grenade will pop out. Suicide bombing isn't much different from that imo.

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

I'm not sure whether that can be justified because there might be innocent people there regardless.

By that reasoning, we should never drop a bomb from an airplane :dunno

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

The problem is I think when people think 'Suicide Bombing' they think of it as killing innocent people, without thinking of the other part of and that is as you say blowing up military targets. I'm not sure whether that can be justified because there might be innocent people there regardless.

It's a really fine line.

I know at some level the concept of collateral damage is considered and should be considered. To play devils advocate, there have been some well publicized events in Afganistan where the entire wedding party or funeral party are taken out by a U.S. missile because there are some high level terrorists in the crowd. How different is this from a suicide bomber blowing up in the market? Is the difference that everyone there is guilty by association? Something to consider philosophically.

 

[Springsteen]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Not really. A suicide bomber has to be a heck of a lot more tactical in case of being caught before doing to act so to speak. Plus he has a better view of his targets. Whereas a plane just goes there and drops a bomb. Plus generally a plane has a better target to aim at.

However I can see the comparison in terms of the desctruction it can cause, innocent or otherwise.

I'm not an anti-war person by any means, if war happens for justified reasons it's fine, but if innocent deaths can be avoided that would work better. Course it's easier said than done.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

By that reasoning, we should never drop a bomb from an airplane :dunno

In WWII we firebombed not to mention nuked, entire cities full of "quote" innocent people. Yes it was a completely different conflict and the concept became "them-or-us" making innocent people expendable. Regarding the nuking of Japan, my understanding is that we estimated a million causalities if we invaded and instead opted to save our people. No matter how distasteful the outcome was (killing a city), I understand the them-or-us logic and can't say I would have chosen any different.

From a philosophical standpoint, it's an interesting exercise to compare that with what the average suicide bomber achieves.

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Plus he has a better view of his targets.

Believe it or not, a LARGE percentage of suicide bombers vests/vehicles are actually controlled remotely. He can detonate it, but if he tries to run, someone else can detonate it. Meaning that it doesn't matter what the targets are, he has no way to abort his mission if he realizes at the last second it's a school bus of nuns and orphans. Just something to consider. :dunno

 

[Accountable]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

I think suicide bombers should attack in large squads of 100 or more. Big tightly packs groups of them to make a bigger bang. But they need to be properly trained to coordinate such a large group. I recommend using live vests to make the training as realistic as possible.

 

[Accountable]

If we had Buddhist suicide bombers they could compete for the most successful missions.

 

[Meirionnydd]

Another point to mention is the cultural context. In Western societies suicide bombing is seen as abhorrent, immoral and unjustified. However, the attitude has probably been shaped by events in the past several decades, such as an increased media and political focus on Islamic fundamentalism.

One cultural perspective of note is Japan in the Second World War, who frequently carried out suicide attacks (particularly during the later stages of the war). In Japan, surrender was seen as dishonorable and humiliating, with death being preferred over surrender. This is evidenced during the early stages of the Pacific campaign, where Imperial troops would carry out Gyokusai (honorable suicide) charges against Allied forces when faced with imminent defeat.

Later in the war where the Home Islands themselves were under threat, the Japanese resorted to suicide runs in fighter planes against Allied naval forces. At home, they were seen as honorable and as heroes, choosing death in the face of surrender and sacrificing themselves for the 'greater good'.

The concept of self-sacrifice in war has been a long-lived concept. However, with the majority of victims of suicide bombings in modern society being civilians, many people have turned decidedly against it.

 

[Springsteen]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Believe it or not, a LARGE percentage of suicide bombers vests/vehicles are actually controlled remotely. He can detonate it, but if he tries to run, someone else can detonate it. Meaning that it doesn't matter what the targets are, he has no way to abort his mission if he realizes at the last second it's a school bus of nuns and orphans. Just something to consider. :dunno

Ah see that educates me. Because the perception our media has given us is that Suicide Bombers are one person (as part of a team), but one person during the actual act. Of course I am aware that there's more than one way to skin a cat (for want of a better expression) but in general terms the British media has given us that picture.

I will also say the Media here has made us a little paranoid. They are almost saying "If you see a muslim with a rucksack in a bus station phone this number now"

Whereas of course this muslim could very well just have been on his way home from work and carrying items from that.

It doesn't have to be muslim, it's anyone who looks suspicious to be honest.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Believe it or not, a LARGE percentage of suicide bombers vests/vehicles are actually controlled remotely. He can detonate it, but if he tries to run, someone else can detonate it. Meaning that it doesn't matter what the targets are, he has no way to abort his mission if he realizes at the last second it's a school bus of nuns and orphans. Just something to consider. :dunno

But then someone with "eyes on" is still pulling the trigger. They just think the collateral damage/murder is worth the cause.

The concept of self-sacrifice in war has been a long-lived concept. However, with the majority of victims of suicide bombings in modern society being civilians, many people have turned decidedly against it.

Civilian vs military target. A terror campaign incites terror in the general populace destabilizing the area you are trying to control. It really is no different than exploding a dirty nuke in a large city whether someone kills themselves in the process or not. Maybe I should have titled this thread, Civilian vs Military targets...

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Maybe I should have titled this thread, Civilian vs Military targets...

Good point, but I hope to god that thread wouldn't have had any debate in it :dunno

 

[Codrus]

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Good point, but I hope to god that thread wouldn't have had any debate in it :dunno

Depends on what you mean. There is much room for debate regarding blowing up the market place vs blowing up an entire city vs strictly military targets. As you know cities were legitimate targets in WWII, but it all boils down to the degree of the conflict and the perception of your side's chance at surviving. Civilized actions tend to evaporate during War but the thought of blowing up public places, killing indiscriminately pisses me off ESPECIALLY when you are doing it in the name of your approving Lord.

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Depends on what you mean. There is much room for debate regarding blowing up the market place vs blowing up an entire city vs strictly military targets. As you know cities were legitimate targets in WWII, but it all boils down to the degree of the conflict and the perception of your side's chance at surviving. Civilized actions tend to evaporate during War but the thought of blowing up public places, killing indiscriminately pisses me off ESPECIALLY when you are doing it in the name of your approving Lord.

Religion should NEVER be a justification for war. Of course throughout history it's been the leading cause of them. The power religion holds over people is a tool that can be used for good or evil, and unfortunately it's far more common and catastrophic to use it for evil.

WWII was an exceptional example of the total war concept, and was completely justified at the time. It was a war that HAD to be won, not for political or religious reasons, but for the admitted good of all humanity.

The case could be made that terrorism must be stopped for the good of all humanity also. However, it isn't a threat that requires total war, in fact that would be completely detrimental to the cause because it would drive recruits to terrorist camps faster than anything.

I think the idea of total war, targeting civilian centers and cities with "strategic bombing", is completely unacceptable in today's world. Part of the reason it was adopted in WWII was we simply didn't have the technology to ensure that we destroyed the ball-bearing plant in the center of Munich without hitting everything around it, so we decided it was acceptable to hit everything around it. In the age of precision laser-guided bombs, there's really no need for that kind of collateral damage anymore, and I highly doubt anybody would tolerate it.

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

Religion should NEVER be a justification for war. Of course throughout history it's been the leading cause of them. The power religion holds over people is a tool that can be used for good or evil, and unfortunately it's far more common and catastrophic to use it for evil.

WWII was an exceptional example of the total war concept, and was completely justified at the time. It was a war that HAD to be won, not for political or religious reasons, but for the admitted good of all humanity.

The case could be made that terrorism must be stopped for the good of all humanity also. However, it isn't a threat that requires total war, in fact that would be completely detrimental to the cause because it would drive recruits to terrorist camps faster than anything.

I think the idea of total war, targeting civilian centers and cities with "strategic bombing", is completely unacceptable in today's world. Part of the reason it was adopted in WWII was we simply didn't have the technology to ensure that we destroyed the ball-bearing plant in the center of Munich without hitting everything around it, so we decided it was acceptable to hit everything around it. In the age of precision laser-guided bombs, there's really no need for that kind of collateral damage anymore, and I highly doubt anybody would tolerate it.

I agree with you 100% especially your last paragraph. Just hope we never end up in a situation where nukes start flying.

 

[dt3]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

I agree with you 100% especially your last paragraph. Just hope we never end up in a situation where nukes start flying.

I live 60 miles from DC, and have no intention to move closer for that very reason :ninja

It's only paranoia until it happens, then it's the smartest decision ever

 

[Minor Axis]

Re: Is Suicide Bombing every justified?

I live 60 miles from DC, and have no intention to move closer for that very reason :ninja

It's only paranoia until it happens, then it's the smartest decision ever

About where do you live? I grew up in DC/Upper Marlboro, brother in Centreville and another in S.Md.