Hurrah for Social Security! :D

Social Security

  • I am for a Social Security program period.

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • I am for a SS program if it is economically viable.

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • I am against a SS program becuase Government is not competant to run it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm against SS because I don't want Government in my life.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I'm against SS because individuals should be responsible for themselves.

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

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Minor Axis

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Show me where I signed up to join in.

The whole point about our country is individual rights

And part of that had to do with State rights

Your utopian ideal is not what this country was founded and thrived on for over 100 years

Why are we a country? My utopian ideal is a dream which maybe eventually obtained... or maybe not. ;)

I think that is EXACTLY what Marx had in mind ... and it would be wonderful if we could actually make that work!

...... unfortunately ... it has yet to work

That is due to human greed and corruption. Of course greed and corruption will undermine any system. Until we can shake that aspect of humanity, we will struggle.
 
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Minor Axis

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No, some people really think the hive bit is a good thing - everybody working for the common good, forsaking individuality in the interest of the whole. Personally, I'd rather preserve my individuality, helping and accepting help because it makes me feel good to do so, rather than because the law dictates that I must.

You don't understand the concept. Individually is not forsaken, but there are limits on what physical riches can be obtained for ones self. And there is more time to devote to improving one's self, not spending all of your time focused on earning a survival wage. As society becomes more technologically advanced and machines take over more and more functions of society, what are all those people going to do to earn a wage? This is what many science fiction writers have explored and why I believe we are headed towards a more socialistic society unless we destroy ourselves first.
 

Accountable

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HUH? Point out my partisan statement in reply #11.
The Republicans are masters at this type of thinking.

Open your eyes and look around. This is where the big wheels in our society are at today. It's rampant, it's the perfect illustration of why government is needed.
Open your own fucking eyes. It's gov't action that's enabled the current situation! And you're bent on ceding even more of your liberty to it.

Government if it serves the people, levels the playing field keeping one sector of the economy from becoming extravagantly wealthy at the expense of another.
That's not happening now, though, is it? The extravagantly wealthy own the gov't right now. The federal gov't currently paves the way for their corporate sponsors, insulates them against all risk, and set up roadblocks to any entrepreneurs who might otherwise compete against them. And you're bent on ceding even more of your liberty to it.

It prevents abuses such as monopolies
No monopoly has ever survived without gov't assistance.

[...] and dictates things like acceptable minimum wage. If our society can't function and offer a "livable" wage for a full time job, then we need to rethink how our society is structured.
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You are so passionate in your views and so sure I am so wrong, you can't even see when I'm agreeing with you in principle. The program has to maintain it's fiscal viability. If that means adjusting the age of eligibility, so be it. :)
You're right, I've seen the same from this side as well. I think you and I need to agree to be more blatant when we agree, since we disagree so much.
 

Minor Axis

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Actually I guess I did include a partisan statement. But it's a true partisan statement! :)

Open your own fucking eyes. It's gov't action that's enabled the current situation! And you're bent on ceding even more of your liberty to it.

The mindset on Wallstreet is what it is. If they are free to do it, they will. I want government action to constrain this, not let it run rampant. If I understand you correctly your solution is to let them fail when they fail. What if they are too smart to fail?

That's not happening now, though, is it? The extravagantly wealthy own the gov't right now. The federal gov't currently paves the way for their corporate sponsors, insulates them against all risk, and set up roadblocks to any entrepreneurs who might otherwise compete against them. And you're bent on ceding even more of your liberty to it.

I am? I've never pushed a government that protects the banks, wall street, and oil companies, although I think I understand to some degree that if you let this (the monetary) structure fail, the economy might (will?) implode. I admit I am no economist but if government intervenes, if the structure is saved, I want the these organizations reigned in, not to run rampant. After the great depression of the 30's a variety of rules were put into place to prevent it from ever happening again. But since then business forces continually pushed, putting politicians into their pockets until they finally succeeded about 2000 in removing all of these depression era limitations. It only took 9 years after that for business entities achieved another crisis using deriviates. This is my example of why you want to have government rules and regulations that promote responsibility and stability.

No monopoly has ever survived without gov't assistance.

How about the trusts of the 1800s? It took a government to take them apart. If you are wrong about anything it's this. Monopolies become so powerful that there is nothing with the counter power to dismantle them than a government or a revolution.

yahoo_youkiddingme.gif


You're right, I've seen the same from this side as well. I think you and I need to agree to be more blatant when we agree, since we disagree so much.
 

Accountable

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Actually I guess I did include a partisan statement. But it's a true partisan statement! :)
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The mindset on Wallstreet is what it is. If they are free to do it, they will. I want government action to constrain this, not let it run rampant. If I understand you correctly your solution is to let them fail when they fail. What if they are too smart to fail?
Right now they are too smart to fail. They're so smart that they've got control of the government. Before we can argue about what the gov't should do, what's say we agree to stop it from doing what it shouldn't, eh?

I am? I've never pushed a government that protects the banks, wall street, and oil companies,
It's what we've got, though. Voting to give it responsibility over our lives with services such as healthcare or anything else grants it permission to contract the service to the corporate sponsors. The result is our tax dollars going to further enrich the very people you want to stop enriching. You are, in effect, pushing a government that protects the banks, wall street, oil companies, energy companies, big pharmaceuticals, ... any big corp that can afford the ticket.

[...] although I think I understand to some degree that if you let this (the monetary) structure fail, the economy might (will?) implode. I admit I am no economist but if government intervenes, if the structure is saved, I want the these organizations reigned in, not to run rampant.
Come on, Minor, think about it. These organizations ARE the structure. The government did intervene and save it, but saved it so that it could continue to run rampant.

After the great depression of the 30's a variety of rules were put into place to prevent it from ever happening again. But since then business forces continually pushed, putting politicians into their pockets until they finally succeeded about 2000 in removing all of these depression era limitations. It only took 9 years after that for business entities achieved another crisis using deriviates. This is my example of why you want to have government rules and regulations that promote responsibility and stability.
I've got no problem with sensible regs, such as the one (I forget the name & don't want to drop the wrong one) that kept savings banks separate from the investment banks. But those regs aren't going to be written until we take back control of the gov't, and that's not going to happen if we keep growing it.

How about the trusts of the 1800s? It took a government to take them apart. If you are wrong about anything it's this. Monopolies become so powerful that there is nothing with the counter power to dismantle them than a government or a revolution.
I'd have to know which specific trusts you're talking about to respond, but I think if you check them you'll find that every one became dominant because of its relationship with the government.
 

Minor Axis

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Atlantic Magazine: Europe's Real Crisis

Outstanding article, the single most impressive conclusion is that birth control and antibiotics, reduced birth rates while allowing the population to grow rapidly. And that the advent of social programs further depressed the birth rates because if you have a pension you don't need to have 10 kids to make sure someone takes care of you when your old and feeble...

Since the invention of birth control and antibiotics, country after country has gone through a fairly standard shift. First, the mortality rate drops, especially among the young and the aging, and that quickly translates into a bigger workforce. Then, birthrates drop, as families realize that they no longer need to birth a basketball team to ensure that a couple members will survive to adulthood. A falling birthrate means that parents can invest more in each child; with fewer mouths to feed, more and better food can nourish each of them, and children can spend more years in school, causing worker productivity to rise from one generation to the next. As the burden of bearing and rearing children lightens, mothers can do more work outside the home, boosting both household resources and the national economy.

And you might find the analogy of Morningburg as compared to Twilight City to be interesting. It describes characteristics of a young population vs an aging population.

Is strong growth still possible once the demographic dividend has been paid out? Of course it is, at least in theory. Even if the workforce isn’t expanding, strong-enough gains in worker productivity can substantially lift the economy. Longer hours and longer careers can theoretically have the same effect. But it is far from clear that in practice, these solutions will work, given the advanced age of Europe’s workers.

To see why, picture two neighboring towns, sharing all the same infrastructure and economic opportunities, with one key difference: their median age. In the first town, which I’ll call Morningburg, the average resident is 28. In the second, which I’ll call Twilight City, the average householder is 58.

Research indicates that even with all the same resources at their disposal, these two places look very different, and not just because one’s grocery store does a booming business in diapers while the other’s has a whole aisle devoted to Centrum Silver.

In Morningburg, young workers are rapid, plastic learners, eager to try out new ways of doing things. Since they’re still hoping to make a name for themselves and maybe get rich, they take a lot of risks. They push their managers to expand into new markets, propose iffy but innovative product lines, maybe start their own firm if the boss won’t let them advance fast enough. For the right opportunity, they’ll put in 18-hour days for a year or more.

In Twilight City, time horizons are shorter—people aren’t looking for projects that will make them rich or famous 20 years from now. They are interested in conserving what they have. That’s mostly rational, given Twilighters’ life stage; but studies show that older people worry more than younger ones about losses and are therefore especially averse to risk. Twilighters also tire more easily and need more time off for illness, so hours worked slowly decline each year. Wages stay steady, however; Twilighters, like most people, get very angry if you try to cut their salary.

That makes Twilighters expensive—so when they lose a job, finding another is tough. As a result, Twilighters tend to cling fiercely to their positions, and may block younger workers from getting a foothold in the labor market.

The difficulty of reemployment contributes to Twilight City’s surprisingly high, but somewhat deceptive, rate of entrepreneurship. Looking closely, we find that businesses there are disproportionately owned by semi-retirees who have hung out a consulting shingle, or become part-time caterers, or invested in a hobby business like an antique store. These businesses typically don’t have much growth potential, in part because cautious Twilighters won’t (or can’t) borrow money for expansion.

Morningburg is a boomtown, prone to periodic savage busts when the young strivers realize that those fur-bearing-trout farms they invested in aren’t going to make them rich. Twilight City is a less volatile place—but little change also means little growth.

In theory, smart policy could make Twilight City look a little more like Morningburg: public investment and forced savings could boost research and business development; employment laws could be reformed to make labor markets more flexible; heavy investments could be made in education to improve the productivity of Twilight City’s few young workers.

In practice, all of this is likely to be fiercely opposed by Twilight City’s citizens, who tend to vote against change, particularly if it threatens their pensions or health care. Many of the most vehement public demonstrations in Europe over the past two decades have followed attempts at pension reform.
 
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