How much Freedom is Too Much?

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edgray

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I had to quit a forum because one mod actually claimed that by squelching any public disagreement he was preserving the forum members' freedom from disharmony. :wtf:
Ed, should we all bow to those who are afraid of dogs in the same way? Motorcycles? Skateboards? Rock music?? I've had neighbors use similar arguments against each of these.

Are all of these examples of too much freedom??

That's a very interesting point and one that is at the heart of the original question.

I believe personally, as stated before, in as much freedom as is possible. However, given that society is the way it is, and is structured the way it is, this isn't possible right now. And this is where the balance between "freedom to" and "freedom from" needs to be addressed.

So, we need to work out at what point we're will to sacrifice some of our freedoms for the benefit of society.

(an no, those certainly are not examples of too much freedom!)
 
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edgray

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No it prevents you from imposing your idea of safety on anyone else. However stupid that idea may be, you can still continue to think it, the very essence of freedom.

Freedom is the ability to act according to one's desire without outside interference, not a guarantee that that things will always be exactly as you like them.

The only place "freedom from" makes any sense is in the idea of "freedom from oppression" ie freedom to be be free.

Whether you agree with the concept of a "freedom from" or not, you have to concede that your freedom to do something can, will, and does effect other people.

Your idea of freedom, in the simplistic dictionary explanation of the word, cannot possibly exist unless EVERYONE in society is indentical to you, with the same values, beliefs, temperament, intelligence etc etc.
 

edgray

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I disagree pretty much categorically. Libertarians are not necessarily anti-government - well, let me step back from that, because we have some real difference in our definition and function of government.

I am of course a libertarian socialist, or anarchist as we're more commonly known, and we believe that freedom can only be attained through equality and the removal of all power structure. Govt is a power structure, and as such needs to be removed. This is the meaning of libertarianism everywhere else but the US. Libertarianism, in the US meaning, is simply an impossibility because people cannot be 100% free if power structures, such as employment and govt, exist.

I definitely disagree about the "greater good" phrase, since that's the reason that's brought up for everything from nuclear weapons to helmet mandates to unwarranted phone taps to universal healthcare.

I also disagree about any gov't takeover of the food supply, full stop. Woulda coulda shoulda, there's no way to know how the British people might have pulled together under adverse circumstances because the government didn't trust its own people enough to try.

You honestly think that in the 1940s, fat rich people were going to share their food with the poor?? Because rich people have proved so very generous before then? This has been proved to be false by the necessity for govts to impose working conditions for the working man on employers in the early 20th century.

I see any "service" provided by the government as an infringement on my freedom, because it takes away my right to make choices in that particular matter. Some I'm fine with, such as national defense, international relations, etc etc. But that list is very short, and I consider my representatives, my employees, on a very short leash concerning each of those items.

That's basically what I was saying about "the greater good". You choose to be fine with national defense because you see it as important for the survival of your society.

As for the freedoms I have that you lack, I left my list in my other suit :D but the things that come to mind include any services that are privatised here that your government does for you. You're right about the drug thing; little drives me more nuts than throwing good tax dollars away on protecting adults from harming themselves with their own stupid behavior. The gun issue you're already well aware of. Oh yeh, and we elect our head of state ... not always well, but at least I get a say in the matter.

I'll toss up some more as I think of them.

This is true, we have govt run institutions, but also private equivalents to choose from. In the UK, we have very little left that is 100% taken care of by the govt, not even the NHS is 100% govt run. It's govt funded (which of course is funded by us), but uses private sections for certain things. The only services I can think of, aside from healthcare, are the same as the US: police, armed forces... struggling to think of more right now...

The drugs topic is worthy of another thread. But, one thing I love about Spain is that we're free to grow up to 3 marijuana plants for personal use ;)
 

edgray

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So, going back to the original question, I believe that, under the right circumstances (libertarianism) there is no limit to freedom. But at this moment in time, societies being structured the way they are, is that we need to weigh-up our freedom against the effects those freedoms have on our societies.

At this moment in time, as mentioned in the thread earlier, I believe we're conned into thinking we're more free than we actually are.
 
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Accountable

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Its hard to quantify. We don't have your kind of freedom and yet we are a progressive nation. We have less freedom than US but certainly more freedom than China.
Here is, I think, the key question. This is where culture comes in. On spectrum of priority, with the collective, or nation, at one end and the individual at the other end, where is the focus of your society's laws and where do you believe it should be.

<---------------------------------------------------------- + ---------------------------------------------------------->

Collective - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Individual

As I type this, I realize that's not really it. There's more to it. Privilege. Merit. Much more than simply prioritizing the individual vs the group.

What should everyone have simply as a default for being a human? A citizen?
Should the society say you must pay for these things, but then the rest of your money and time are yours?
Or should it say you have accumulated more as a result of taking advantage of what this society offers, so you should pay more to help those who haven't excelled?

I've got more questions than answers piling up at the moment, but this is fun.

One things certain, though. Everyone, we need to find a different adjective to use instead of "possible." :D It just doesn't make sense in this conversation.
 
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Accountable

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That's a very interesting point and one that is at the heart of the original question.

I believe personally, as stated before, in as much freedom as is possible. However, given that society is the way it is, and is structured the way it is, this isn't possible right now. And this is where the balance between "freedom to" and "freedom from" needs to be addressed.

So, we need to work out at what point we're will to sacrifice some of our freedoms for the benefit of society.

(an no, those certainly are not examples of too much freedom!)

Whether you agree with the concept of a "freedom from" or not, you have to concede that your freedom to do something can, will, and does effect other people.

Your idea of freedom, in the simplistic dictionary explanation of the word, cannot possibly exist unless EVERYONE in society is indentical to you, with the same values, beliefs, temperament, intelligence etc etc.
I'm not sold on this "freedom from" idea. My gut tells me that any "freedom from" phrase can be reworded to a "freedom to" phrase. An inflexible "freedom from" phrase is tyranny.
 

edgray

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I'm not sold on this "freedom from" idea. My gut tells me that any "freedom from" phrase can be reworded to a "freedom to" phrase. An inflexible "freedom from" phrase is tyranny.

I think I see your point here:

Freedom From (guns) - inflexible

equates to

Freedom To (impose your thoughts on gun control on someone else) - which is essentially tyrannical

results in

Not being free to own a gun. A freedom removed.

is that what you mean?
 
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Accountable

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You honestly think that in the 1940s, fat rich people were going to share their food with the poor?? Because rich people have proved so very generous before then? This has been proved to be false by the necessity for govts to impose working conditions for the working man on employers in the early 20th century.
There's no way to know for sure now, is there? Just as there's no way to know for sure whether our gov't wading in to "save" our economy actually did good or only muddied the waters and slowed market forces from doing what they would have done anyway, and more quickly.

What I do know, through history and personal experience, is that when traditional societal rules fail and people are freed by circumstances to do as they please, generosity is in evidence as often or even more so than greed & chaos. The food would have been shared one way or another, and if the fat rich guys resisted, they would have found themselves suddenly as poor and hungry as those they tried to turn away .... then they probably would have been fed.
edgray said:
That's basically what I was saying about "the greater good". You choose to be fine with national defense because you see it as important for the survival of your society.
Only because there exist other societies who don't think as I do. I would love for that particular service to be unnecessary.
edgray said:
The drugs topic is worthy of another thread. But, one thing I love about Spain is that we're free to grow up to 3 marijuana plants for personal use ;)
lol.gif
I wonder where that arbitrary number came from.
 

kelvin070

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Here is, I think, the key question. This is where culture comes in. On spectrum of priority, with the collective, or nation, at one end and the individual at the other end, where is the focus of your society's laws and where do you believe it should be.

<---------------------------------------------------------- + ---------------------------------------------------------->​

Collective - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Individual​


As I type this, I realize that's not really it. There's more to it. Privilege. Merit. Much more than simply prioritizing the individual vs the group.​



What should everyone have simply as a default for being a human? A citizen?


Should the society say you must pay for these things, but then the rest of your money and time are yours?


Or should it say you have accumulated more as a result of taking advantage of what this society offers, so you should pay more to help those who haven't excelled?​



I've got more questions than answers piling up at the moment, but this is fun.​



One things certain, though. Everyone, we need to find a different adjective to use instead of "possible." :D It just doesn't make sense in this conversation.​
The focus is on the individuals cuz we individuals as a whole are money spinners for govt coffers. We get subsidized education, healthcare and public housing and alot of what we earn goes back to the govt in the form of income taxes, GST etc. Of course the govt spenda a great deal on the infrasructure and build a condusive environment for its citizens. That sums up the economic aspects which is the primary. There are many other non-economic laws pertaining to the indivuduals. My estimate is 60% focus at the individual level and 40% focus at the national level.
 

Accountable

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I am of course a libertarian socialist, or anarchist as we're more commonly known, and we believe that freedom can only be attained through equality and the removal of all power structure. Govt is a power structure, and as such needs to be removed. This is the meaning of libertarianism everywhere else but the US. Libertarianism, in the US meaning, is simply an impossibility because people cannot be 100% free if power structures, such as employment and govt, exist.
So you go with the Ayn Rand model, that any imposition of force is immoral? Recheck my post on pg 1 if you don't remember.
So, going back to the original question, I believe that, under the right circumstances (libertarianism) there is no limit to freedom. But at this moment in time, societies being structured the way they are, is that we need to weigh-up our freedom against the effects those freedoms have on our societies.

At this moment in time, as mentioned in the thread earlier, I believe we're conned into thinking we're more free than we actually are.
There is always a limit to freedom because one can't exercise his freedom to murder without imposing on another's freedom to maintain a pulse. I have a really tough time thinking of any circumstance where the two can coexist.

Since we are social animals, it's not realistic to think there won't be conflict in exercising freedom, so we need checks and balances. Government (for want of a better word) can provide that balance, but we need to keep it in close check.
 

Accountable

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I think I see your point here:

Freedom From (guns) - inflexible

equates to

Freedom To (impose your thoughts on gun control on someone else) - which is essentially tyrannical

results in

Not being free to own a gun. A freedom removed.

is that what you mean?
I think that wraps it up nicely.

There's a reason a person wants freedom from guns. guns are not evil; they are chunks of steel. They are tools - dangerous tools that in the wrong hands can kill. Creating a blanket prohibition indicates a basic distrust of one's fellow citizens. In my mind we need to avoid rules based on distrust.
 

edgray

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There's no way to know for sure now, is there? Just as there's no way to know for sure whether our gov't wading in to "save" our economy actually did good or only muddied the waters and slowed market forces from doing what they would have done anyway, and more quickly.

This is true, but at that particular time in Britain, I'd be happy to make a very large wager that the rich weren't especially interested in sharing what was theirs...

What I do know, through history and personal experience, is that when traditional societal rules fail and people are freed by circumstances to do as they please, generosity is in evidence as often or even more so than greed & chaos. The food would have been shared one way or another, and if the fat rich guys resisted, they would have found themselves suddenly as poor and hungry as those they tried to turn away .... then they probably would have been fed.

I want this be true, but I don't believe it is. Rich people don't get rich by being generous, they get rich by being greedy and exploiting their fellow man. Why would they suddenly decide to share?

I saw Ray Santelli on CNN or something calling the average working persons "schmucks" and "losers" and having a entire floor of city workers agreeing with him. Now, comparatively, they're rich. Not oozing with the milk of human kindness, are they? Should the govt etc suddenly disappear, do you really think people like that would suddenly be happy to share what's theirs even though they are so reluctant to do so right now?

Only because there exist other societies who don't think as I do. I would love for that particular service to be unnecessary.

We can certainly agree on this point.

I wonder where that arbitrary number came from.

The mind of a politician is impossible to know ;)
 

Accountable

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The focus is on the individuals cuz we individuals as a whole are money spinners for govt coffers. We get subsidized education, healthcare and public housing and alot of what we earn goes back to the govt in the form of income taxes, GST etc. Of course the govt spenda a great deal on the infrasructure and build a condusive environment for its citizens. That sums up the economic aspects which is the primary. There are many other non-economic laws pertaining to the indivuduals. My estimate is 60% focus at the individual level and 40% focus at the national level.
You seem to ignore the fact that the money filling the gov't coffers comes from the pockets of the citizens themselves.

I lived in Japan off and on for 10 years, and they have a similar opinion of society as you, I think. There is a greater feeling of obligation of the individual toward the whole than we have in the West, and much greater than the US.

I guess where I'm stuck is: how much of that obligation should be directly mandated by law and how much should be entrusted to cultural pressures?
 

Accountable

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I want this be true, but I don't believe it is. Rich people don't get rich by being generous, they get rich by being greedy and exploiting their fellow man. Why would they suddenly decide to share?

I saw Ray Santelli on CNN or something calling the average working persons "schmucks" and "losers" and having a entire floor of city workers agreeing with him. Now, comparatively, they're rich. Not oozing with the milk of human kindness, are they? Should the govt etc suddenly disappear, do you really think people like that would suddenly be happy to share what's theirs even though they are so reluctant to do so right now?
The answer the same in good times as in bad. People act out of self-interest, happily or not. I've seen people share out of fear that not sharing would be very dangerous. I've seen people share out of fear of being ostracized from the group (being along in a crowd can be torture).
I've also seen people share because they are suddenly thrust up close to those who had up to that point been faceless. It's that "there but by the grace of God go I" moment. It's a beautiful moment to witness.
 

Accountable

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Why do we only require people to contribute to society if they make money? Aren't those people are already contributing, however indirectly?

What about the otherwise healthy people who simply refuse to earn a living for whatever reason? Why don't we require a contribution of them? Perhaps a work program in which people are paid a living wage daily if they do what's required of them, but are jailed for the night without pay or food if they don't produce? That's fair, isn't it?
 

edgray

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Why do we only require people to contribute to society if they make money? Aren't those people are already contributing, however indirectly?

What about the otherwise healthy people who simply refuse to earn a living for whatever reason? Why don't we require a contribution of them? Perhaps a work program in which people are paid a living wage daily if they do what's required of them, but are jailed for the night without pay or food if they don't produce? That's fair, isn't it?

Personally I think everyone should be contributing to society. If you're not, then you don't belong in society at all. People who refuse to earn a living, and in the UK as well as Spain we've got a real problem with these "dole scroungers", are parasites, tantamount to criminals in my mind.

I think that social security, as it stands, should be done away with, and those unemployed should be required to work for their local community. For this they would obviously be paid, perhaps more than they would get on social security. It amazes me they don't do this already: what is the point of giving someone welfare if they have no intention of working?

having been unemployed a couple of times in my life, I'd have jumped at the chance to work rather than sit at home.

Better for society I think.
 

Peter Parka

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Personally I think everyone should be contributing to society. If you're not, then you don't belong in society at all. People who refuse to earn a living, and in the UK as well as Spain we've got a real problem with these "dole scroungers", are parasites, tantamount to criminals in my mind.

I think that social security, as it stands, should be done away with, and those unemployed should be required to work for their local community. For this they would obviously be paid, perhaps more than they would get on social security. It amazes me they don't do this already: what is the point of giving someone welfare if they have no intention of working?

having been unemployed a couple of times in my life, I'd have jumped at the chance to work rather than sit at home.

Better for society I think.

I've been agreeing with this thinking for years. I would say that the unemployed should do 2 days of community work a week to earn their doll money, you dont do it, you dont get paid, simple. It also gives you plenty of time to go job hunting too.
 

Meirionnydd

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"Causes harm"?? In what way does a person keeping his money cause harm to someone who has none? I mean, that's the person being penalized in this situation: the person with money - the government determines - to spare.

As earlier, I don't as much think of that as an issue of freedom, but of an issue of social justice. As a source of revenue, tax money from the highest income earners contributes much to government coffers, such tax dollars can be used to fund social services, that benefit the socially and economically disadvantaged members in society.

When a government with a particular political ideology, enact policies that favor the powerful and wealthy in society, and leave those who are less better off out in the cold, I believe that has the potential to cause harm for others, and it limits their freedom. For example, if you cut taxes for the wealthy - which reduces revenue, and consequently cut social programs to the disadvantaged; then I would contend that is when you are 'causing harm'.

Was there any real competition present? Because without both privatization and competition, I can see how there wouldn't be improvement. Our phone system was a monopoly years ago. The gov't broke it into competitive pieces and we have great service at very low rates. Seriously, I think we can at least agree that having a choice in communications providers is not too much freedom, can't we?

Almost everyone universally would agree that competition is a good thing, but competition can only exist, in my view, with some form of government regulation of the market.

In regard to the telecommunication industry, the market isn't diverse as the United States. Telstra, even before privatization, have virtually dominated the market. For example, they own all the telephone lines, and hence, they charge other telecommunication companies a 'line rental' charge. However, there is steady competition growing in the sector, and the government has recently announced that they will legislate to break up Telstra into two separate entities, a move that has been welcomed with consumers and business experts alike.

Also, much expense derives from the fact that our telecommunication infrastructure isn't advanced as much as say, the United States.

In the energy industry, there are a number of companies in competition, both state owned and private, in some circumstances, companies will partly privatized, for example, with Energex, the retail component is owned privately, but the management of the energy distribution network is owned by the Queensland government.

Other companies are wholly state owned, such as Country energy being owned by the NSW state government. A contrast to this would be companies such as AGL and Origin, which are privately owned.

Anyway, sorry about the semantics, but my point being is that, more or less, there is a fair amount of competition in each sector. Although I have a co-worker from the United States who rightfully says that the US telecommunications market is more diverse, cheaper, and competitive than Australia's.

I agree with you on both of these counts, actually. Like I said, those examples were off the top of my head. If we can't ensure there can be real competition for the profits, it makes no sense to privatize something that the gov't already runs, however poorly.

Of course, I hope we can agree that while there are benefits to private ownership of industries, the penetration of market forces into some industries can be detrimental for society.

Personally I think everyone should be contributing to society. If you're not, then you don't belong in society at all. People who refuse to earn a living, and in the UK as well as Spain we've got a real problem with these "dole scroungers", are parasites, tantamount to criminals in my mind.

I think that social security, as it stands, should be done away with, and those unemployed should be required to work for their local community. For this they would obviously be paid, perhaps more than they would get on social security. It amazes me they don't do this already: what is the point of giving someone welfare if they have no intention of working?

having been unemployed a couple of times in my life, I'd have jumped at the chance to work rather than sit at home.

Better for society I think.

We have that kind of program here, it's called 'Work for the dole' - Mutual Obligation/Work for the Dole
 

edgray

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I've been agreeing with this thinking for years. I would say that the unemployed should do 2 days of community work a week to earn their doll money, you dont do it, you dont get paid, simple. It also gives you plenty of time to go job hunting too.

something like that would work well. In the UK in particular it could be a good idea to get the unemployed working in areas that need the most attention - the railways come to mind for me. The entire network is outdated and the only thing stopping it being updated is manpower. Well, with the millions unemployed, we've got the manpower....

This actually raises a very interesting point to me about how badly as societies we organise ourselves. We have so much wasted manpower. Wasted in meaningless jobs, or being unemployed.

Bear with me here, we're going on a flight of fancy...

As anarchists, we view work in 2 distinct catergories:

Necessary work: this would be production of food, health care, infrastructure maintenance, manufacturing, science and technology, teaching, law enforcement etc

Unnecessary work: Any job existing for the creation of profit.

The workload in the first category tends to be disproportionately hard and disproportionately underpaid compared to the second. Yet, this is the most important work.

If we organised ourselves better, shared the workload of category 1, then we could not only find 100% employment, but also people could easily work shorter hours and have better working conditions. Not only that, but have more time to focus on creative, unnecessary work, but work that's vital for a society.
 
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