History of Liberals and Conservatives

Users who are viewing this thread

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
Conservatives complain about liberals being "liberal", but this article indicates, (and as an individual who used to vote Republican I agree) the Republican party has skidded far to the right of where they were in the 1960's.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/212150

This what I see as a huge problem in the USA. Your left wing are actually pretty mild middle- left whereas your right wing are extremists. I vote Conservative in the UK but your Conservatives seem to be irrational, bible bashing, racist extremists.
 
  • 41
    Replies
  • 726
    Views
  • 0
    Participant count
    Participants list

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.02z
This what I see as a huge problem in the USA. Your left wing are actually pretty mild middle- left whereas your right wing are extremists. I vote Conservative in the UK but your Conservatives seem to be irrational, bible bashing, racist extremists.

Yes a substantial group of them are and you forgot "selfish". ;)
 

Alien Allen

Froggy the Prick
Messages
16,633
Reaction score
22
Tokenz
1,206.36z
And the democrats have moved far to the left since the 60's

You think they were that partisan back then they would have contemplated gaming the system to avoid a filibuster???
 

Peter Parka

Well-Known Member
Messages
42,387
Reaction score
3
Tokenz
0.06z
And the democrats have moved far to the left since the 60's

You think they were that partisan back then they would have contemplated gaming the system to avoid a filibuster???


Trust me, your democrats are very middle left, you'd have a heart attack if you saw our main opposition party in the 80s, the labour party, which has calmed down and is now in power.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Damn this is tiresome. The terms liberal and conservative have been twisted so much they don't remotely resemble their original definitions.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Yes, it would be so much easier for you if you could put people into stereotype pockets. ;)
:surrendertouche'.

What I'm referring to is that if we went back to the dictionary definitions, most of us would agree with liberal democracy, and most US Americans would agree with republicanism. It's just that the terms, like seemingly everything else, has gotten so politically charged they've lost their real meaning.
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
If by 'rigid set of rules' you mean, following the constitution, it could be said that my system of government does a decent job of that. Ultimately, Australia's form of government follows a Federalist structure somewhat, much like how the US operates (or was intended to).

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I'm approaching this argument from a Socialist viewpoint, I see that you are providing a libertarian perspective, yes?

We're just going to have a fundamental disagreement on the function of government here. If I was living in an authoritarian state, i'd be inclined to agree with you. Since however, I live in a representative democracy, i'm not exactly going to see eye to eye with you on this one.

I think we're actually more in agreement than you're seeing. I think my speaking in more of an abstract sense is muddying the water though.

But yes ultimately it is a libertarian perspective. I believe very strongly in the enlightenment era views of the sanctity and primacy of the individual over the state.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that a gov't that is unwilling or unable to use power to enforce an edict, itsn't much of a gov't. At the same time, use of that power, by definition, is an infringment of the liberties of the individual because you are forcing someone to do or not do something.

My view is that use of that power has to come from a properly constituted legal authority, and must have a just cause behind it, and in my mind the only real just cause is the protection of the individual and their liberties and/or striking the balance of those between two individuals.

That's an interesting point you make there. The War On Drugs is absolutely retarded on a number of levels, however, most Western countries have begun to adopt a 'harm reduction' approach to illicit drugs. In the US, and many other countries, drug policy is mostly influenced by the public's punitive approach to drug offenders and the justice system in general.

I would say that would be an example of the people using their own collective power to influence government to make decisions, not the other way around. When a politician talks about 'getting tough on crime', it's just to curry up favor with voters.

Except in our case, we're going the opposite direction in many ways. We just had a grandmother arrested in IL and will probably serve time because she dared to buy cold medication for her grandchildren, in violation of anti-meth laws.

Ultimately whats driving these changes in large part is the influence of police, an arm of the gov't, on the actions of gov't. The more things that can be made illegal, the more "crime" there is and the more money and manpower must be spent on law enforcement. Its a vicious self feeding cycle which politicians are more than happy to go along with because they don't want to be seen as soft on crime.



Regardless, would you agree that it is hard to come to a complete census on what a right is? Even if there is a general definition, there will always be differing views as to what a right constitutes. For example, some people consider primary education a right, i'm sure others don't.

Difficult yes but not impossible. At very least I think we should be able to come up with a basic framework that enables some form of discussion.

Education is a good example that could go either way. To me ,it doesn't really fit the realm of a natural right because natural rights are inherent to the nature of humanity and can't require action by someone else. It could, however, be a civil right in that an educated citizenry can foster a better working relationship with the gov't.


Do I see a specific trend in the governments you listed? Okay,

Germany - Fascist (Nationalist Socialist) Government.
The USSR - "Communist" - Stalinist Regime.
China - "Communist" Regime.
Cambodia - "Communist" Regime.

None of these governments were a democracy, in just about all situations, these regimes had a very extremist ideology. It would be absurd that you could infer that modern liberal democracies are tyrannical simply because governments under a completely different ideology and system of governance killed millions of people.

Germany did start out as a republic, but it is the exception.

I'm not saying that all gov'ts are tyrannical, just that they easily have the potential to be that and its a thin line that separates a good gov't from a bad gov't. With the acquisition of more power and people in charge who are willing to ignore the rule of law, a liberal democracy can slip into a dictatorship in a proverbial heartbeat

Lets look at what some non-totalarian gov'ts have done as well though.

We here in the US were using concentration camps with the Japanese at the same time Hitler was doing it with the Jews. Then there's our wonderful history on enslaving people due to the color of their skin.

The Brits put a bunch of people in concentration camps during the Boer wars in addition to wholesale subjugation of people in its imperial colonies.

Even you Aussies with the "stolen generations" taking children wholesale from their families because they were of mixed race.

All of those were horrible violations of the rights of the individual and all were perpetrated with a gov't accountable to the electorate, essentially cases of the proverbial "tyranny of the majority."

My point ultimately being that we need to be far more careful than we currently are in giving more power to gov't to reign in other "evil" institutions because we could very easily end up with a far worse evil thats far harder to get rid of.
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Damn this is tiresome. The terms liberal and conservative have been twisted so much they don't remotely resemble their original definitions.

I'll give a word out to that.

Its almost sad that we've come full circle on the terms.

200 years ago, the state was prime over the individual so conservative meant you were for state power and liberal meant you for the rights of the individual.

Now we've gone on so long with the primacy of the individual that the terms are essentially reversed. Conservatives (libertarians actually not the modern conservatives) are for the primacy of the indvidual while liberals fight for the power of the state....
 

Alien Allen

Froggy the Prick
Messages
16,633
Reaction score
22
Tokenz
1,206.36z
I'll give a word out to that.

Its almost sad that we've come full circle on the terms.

200 years ago, the state was prime over the individual so conservative meant you were for state power and liberal meant you for the rights of the individual.

Now we've gone on so long with the primacy of the individual that the terms are essentially reversed. Conservatives (libertarians actually not the modern conservatives) are for the primacy of the indvidual while liberals fight for the power of the state....

Yup those were what is termed classical liberals if I am mistaken

or another term I think was Jeffersonian liberal??
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
Yup those were what is termed classical liberals if I am mistaken

or another term I think was Jeffersonian liberal??

Jeffersonian Democrat actually...

People look at me funny when they ask what political bent I am and I say Jeffersonian Democrat :24:
 

Alien Allen

Froggy the Prick
Messages
16,633
Reaction score
22
Tokenz
1,206.36z
Jeffersonian Democrat actually...

People look at me funny when they ask what political bent I am and I say Jeffersonian Democrat :24:

Been a while since I heard the term so I forgot it. Used to be a local talk show host that always referred to him being a Jeffersonian Democrat. Struck me as odd initially as he is conservative to the max. Then I got it sorted out.

I know a couple guys that are liberals. They are the classical ones and are as conservative or more than me. They get laughed at when the new age liberals claim they are republicans :D
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
The more I read and investigate the history of it, the more I believe that classical liberalism was the greatest intellectual and philosophical advance in the history of humanity.

The emphasis of the rights of the individual directly resulted in the founding of the free and open societies that fostered innovations that finally after thousands of years, removed the burden from the majority of people of having to scrabble in the dirt for survival.

I don't believe those advances would have been possible in such a short timeframe without the emphasis on individual liberties and innovative risk taking that classical liberalism fosters....
 

Meirionnydd

Active Member
Messages
793
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I think we're actually more in agreement than you're seeing. I think my speaking in more of an abstract sense is muddying the water though.

But yes ultimately it is a libertarian perspective. I believe very strongly in the enlightenment era views of the sanctity and primacy of the individual over the state.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that a gov't that is unwilling or unable to use power to enforce an edict, itsn't much of a gov't. At the same time, use of that power, by definition, is an infringment of the liberties of the individual because you are forcing someone to do or not do something.

My view is that use of that power has to come from a properly constituted legal authority, and must have a just cause behind it, and in my mind the only real just cause is the protection of the individual and their liberties and/or striking the balance of those between two individuals.

Most of what you're saying, I agree with in principle. You may make a libertarian out of me yet!

Except in our case, we're going the opposite direction in many ways. We just had a grandmother arrested in IL and will probably serve time because she dared to buy cold medication for her grandchildren, in violation of anti-meth laws.

Ultimately whats driving these changes in large part is the influence of police, an arm of the gov't, on the actions of gov't. The more things that can be made illegal, the more "crime" there is and the more money and manpower must be spent on law enforcement. Its a vicious self feeding cycle which politicians are more than happy to go along with because they don't want to be seen as soft on crime.

The Police, technically aren't an 'arm' of government in the strictest sense. The modern Criminal Justice System is designed to be independent from the legislative and executive. While the legislature passes laws for the Police to enforce, a Police Officer is under no obligation to enforce such rules. That's where the whole 'discretionary' theme comes into play, which is the dominant feature of the Justice system.

Whilst that works less in practice than in theory, I thought this was an interesting example:

Drivers' delight: Police boycott fines indefinitely - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

When politicians pass new draconian laws regarding criminal offences, they probably know that the Police aren't going to explicitly enforce that legislation, rather, it's just on the books to make the community "feel better". Although that raises many problems in itself.

It's also interesting to note that such legislation regarding morality offences have rapidly progressed in recent years. Homosexuality for example, was decriminalised over 20 years ago across Australia, as with prostitution in some jurisdictions. I think morality offences pose the greatest threat to individual freedom, because after all, who gets to decide morality?

Drug laws is another important issue too. Something like cannabis usage, probably shouldn't be against the law. Or at the very most, be a Civil Offence, where the main objective is rehabilitation. More serious drugs, like Meth or example, should still be controlled, considering the wide-ranging social and economic problems it causes.

Moreover, simply locking up drug offenders isn't going to help at all, rehabilitation, should be the dominant strategy.


Germany did start out as a republic, but it is the exception.

I'm not saying that all gov'ts are tyrannical, just that they easily have the potential to be that and its a thin line that separates a good gov't from a bad gov't. With the acquisition of more power and people in charge who are willing to ignore the rule of law, a liberal democracy can slip into a dictatorship in a proverbial heartbeat

I disagree with that statement. Today, it is quite difficult, if not impossible, for a government in a Liberal Democracy to easily flout the rule of law. Even the Government are held accountable to several bodies, wither it being the people, the High Court or Opposition parties.

With the separation of powers, delegated to both local bodies and the states, it makes it quite difficult for a Federal or State government to disobey the rule of law and impose a dictatorship. Unless there was some kind of agreement between these all these governmental entities, something which is, almost impossible.

Let's not forget social institutions, such as the Mass Media. They do a good job of keeping Governments in check. The Washington Post basically helped in the downfall of the Nixon administration after Watergate. In Australia, the Courier Mail and the ABC almost single handedly brought down the National parties hold on power in Queensland after a report in 1989, into Police and political corruption.

Regardless of what you may think, people do not enter politics in order to acquire supreme power over the people at large, there is a good lot of people there who seek to improve the lives of the population, and those who wish to promote the cause of social justice.

So it's not exactly easy for a government to impose a dictatorship on it's people. And just because they theoretically can, doesn't necessarily they will. For example, any one of us could go out and murder someone tonight if we really wanted to. Do we do it though? Of course not, we're aware of the negative consequences of such actions. The same is true with the government (Those consequences being what I wrote above).

Lets look at what some non-totalarian gov'ts have done as well though.

We here in the US were using concentration camps with the Japanese at the same time Hitler was doing it with the Jews. Then there's our wonderful history on enslaving people due to the color of their skin.

That's quite a weak comparison. The Japanese weren't being systematically slaughtered, nor were they being purposely worked and starved to death in those internment camps.

Even you Aussies with the "stolen generations" taking children wholesale from their families because they were of mixed race.

Yes, and that forms a dark part of our history.

That formed part of a prevailing view in the community at that time. Being, "Aboriginal parents can't take proper care of their children, so we [White people] will take care of them". In the 1960's, that view may of had some legitimacy to it, considering the horrid social and economic conditions that Indigenous Australian's endured [Which, obviously wasn't their fault].

Successive governments have also tried to mend the wound left in Indigenous Australians, because of that policy. In 2008, the Prime Minister formally apologised on behalf of the Australian people to the hurt and suffering caused by that policy.

At the moment, many government programs exist to assist Indigenous Australian's who are disadvantaged. My point being, the government can actually do some good.

Most of the incidents have happened in recent history, but remember that the role and expectations of government are constantly evolving. It's easy to decry the past actions of others, but remember that 50-100 years ago, the people had a completely different perception and expectation of their government.

All of those were horrible violations of the rights of the individual and all were perpetrated with a gov't accountable to the electorate, essentially cases of the proverbial "tyranny of the majority."

My point ultimately being that we need to be far more careful than we currently are in giving more power to gov't to reign in other "evil" institutions because we could very easily end up with a far worse evil thats far harder to get rid of.

Everyone can agree that there are big problems in governments, but I would assert that the system remains relatively sound. I think it's better to most of the alternatives out there, it just needs significant reform.
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
The Police, technically aren't an 'arm' of government in the strictest sense. The modern Criminal Justice System is designed to be independent from the legislative and executive. While the legislature passes laws for the Police to enforce, a Police Officer is under no obligation to enforce such rules. That's where the whole 'discretionary' theme comes into play, which is the dominant feature of the Justice system.

I guess you guys are set up differently than we are. Law enforcement is a part of our executive branchs.

Whilst that works less in practice than in theory, I thought this was an interesting example:

Drivers' delight: Police boycott fines indefinitely - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

When politicians pass new draconian laws regarding criminal offences, they probably know that the Police aren't going to explicitly enforce that legislation, rather, it's just on the books to make the community "feel better". Although that raises many problems in itself.

I wish something like that would happen here. It seems like the worse a law is, the more likely our politicians, police and DAs are to claim its paramount that "rule of law" is followed. Worse yet thats almost the only time they believe in "rule of law."

I disagree with that statement. Today, it is quite difficult, if not impossible, for a government in a Liberal Democracy to easily flout the rule of law. Even the Government are held accountable to several bodies, wither it being the people, the High Court or Opposition parties.

With the separation of powers, delegated to both local bodies and the states, it makes it quite difficult for a Federal or State government to disobey the rule of law and impose a dictatorship. Unless there was some kind of agreement between these all these governmental entities, something which is, almost impossible.

If not for our history of the last 100 years I'd be inclined to agree. At least here in the US our branches of gov't have a nasty tendancy to cover thier collective hind ends. Our Supreme Court has been extremely reluctant to render rulings that would limit the power of the Federal Gov't.

The end result has been large increases in federal power at the expense of state and local gov't and the people. The prevailing reading our the commerce clause and federal pre-emption is such that almost nothing is beyond the feds reach.


Let's not forget social institutions, such as the Mass Media. They do a good job of keeping Governments in check. The Washington Post basically helped in the downfall of the Nixon administration after Watergate. In Australia, the Courier Mail and the ABC almost single handedly brought down the National parties hold on power in Queensland after a report in 1989, into Police and political corruption.

Speaking only for the US media, I have less and less faith in them every day that goes by. It seems like critically questioning policy proposals went out the window with our last election.

I'm almost at the point I'd prefer the retard in chief back if only for the fact I could trust the media to call him on his BS....

Drug laws is another important issue too. Something like cannabis usage, probably shouldn't be against the law. Or at the very most, be a Civil Offence, where the main objective is rehabilitation. More serious drugs, like Meth or example, should still be controlled, considering the wide-ranging social and economic problems it causes.

See, I disagree on controlling any of it other than age restrictions for minors. I believe the prohibition to be generally detrimental to a free society without really solving the social and economic issues. At least if it was legal, you could keep an eye on whats going on instead of it being hidden in the underground...

Everyone can agree that there are big problems in governments, but I would assert that the system remains relatively sound. I think it's better to most of the alternatives out there, it just needs significant reform.

Whats the saying? Democracy is a terrible form of gov't, its just better than every other option :D

I just worry that if we continue to increase the scope and power of gov't, eventually we will hit a point of no return. The more involved with and the more power the gov't can excercise over the daily lives of the individual, the harder it becomes to resist further power grabs.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
Today, it is quite difficult, if not impossible, for a government in a Liberal Democracy to easily flout the rule of law.
I'm really enjoying the dialog, so I'll only interject this: the Obama administration did exactly that when they stepped in after the fact and not only told the banks what they can use the money for and many other micromanaging details, they also suspended the rule of contract law and gave money to unions that by law should have gone to preferred stockholders, bondholders, and other creditors.
 

Alien Allen

Froggy the Prick
Messages
16,633
Reaction score
22
Tokenz
1,206.36z
I'm really enjoying the dialog, so I'll only interject this: the Obama administration did exactly that when they stepped in after the fact and not only told the banks what they can use the money for and many other micromanaging details, they also suspended the rule of contract law and gave money to unions that by law should have gone to preferred stockholders, bondholders, and other creditors.

No idea if you got this right but...............

The auto bankruptcy was a sham... The bondholders got screwed. They should have been the first secured parties and were told what scraps they could have. If it were not for a corrupt govt and judges those bankruptcy's would not be over by now. They would be in litigation for a couple of years on all the crap involved.
 

nova

Active Member
Messages
799
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
The auto bankruptcy was a sham... The bondholders got screwed. They should have been the first secured parties and were told what scraps they could have. If it were not for a corrupt govt and judges those bankruptcy's would not be over by now. They would be in litigation for a couple of years on all the crap involved.

Yep.

Chrysler Bankruptcy:

Secured creditors got something like 15 cents on the dollar for what they were owed. The UAW, who was an unsecured creditor, got over 50 cents on the dollar. Gov'ts argument before the bankruptcy court was that after their debtor in possession financing was taken into account there was very little value left. Well ok, thats in line with the law but whatever is left should go to the secured creditors, not the unsecured creditors.

Gm Bankruptcy:

Everybody involved was basically an unsecured creditor. Preferred bondholders ended up with a 10% stake in new GM for $27 Billion in debt. UAW got a 17.5% stake for $20 Billion in debt. .Gov argued that there was NO value left after the debtor in possession financing. Fine and dandy but if thats the case then nobody but .gov should get ANYTHING. If there is value left, then elgally the remainder should be split in proportion to the debts owed.

Long story short is they screwed several groups of people in favor of a politically favorable group, in blatant disregard for the law and prior jurisprudence. Makes perfect sense no?
 

Meirionnydd

Active Member
Messages
793
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I guess you guys are set up differently than we are. Law enforcement is a part of our executive branchs.

Ah yes, I see. Would that have something to do with the de-centralisation of law enforcement bodies across the US? I think they're something like 17,000 law enforcement bodies across the country.

In Australia, we only really have State and Federal enforcement bodies, (I.e. Queensland Police, Victoria Police etc.) there's only one hierarchy, and at the top is the Police Commissioner, while the State does have an influence providing funding, legislating Police powers and so on, the Police are still supposed to be independent of any branch of government.

Speaking of which, I wonder how much money could be saved in the US if law enforcement bodies were amalgamated into more centralised bodies? I'm sure plenty of money gets wasted on administrative overlap.

I wish something like that would happen here. It seems like the worse a law is, the more likely our politicians, police and DAs are to claim its paramount that "rule of law" is followed. Worse yet thats almost the only time they believe in "rule of law."

Politicians will pass anything that would gain them votes, or create a perception in the public that they are "tough on crime", which ultimately, will get them votes. At the same time, they'll fail to think of the unforeseen consequences and longer-term effects of passing such legislation. While I'm speaking in generalities here, there's a bunch of legislation passed in Australia and the US that could prove my point.

In Australia, the DPP (Somewhat equivalent to the DA's in the US) will not pursue a case if it is not in the public interest to do so. It might be prudent if the DA had the same sort of test. However, as you said before about law enforcement being a branch of government, it could be possible that they are under immense pressure to enforce such laws.

If not for our history of the last 100 years I'd be inclined to agree. At least here in the US our branches of gov't have a nasty tendancy to cover thier collective hind ends. Our Supreme Court has been extremely reluctant to render rulings that would limit the power of the Federal Gov't.

The end result has been large increases in federal power at the expense of state and local gov't and the people. The prevailing reading our the commerce clause and federal pre-emption is such that almost nothing is beyond the feds reach.

Quite the same thing has happened here, both our countries were founded on federalist traditions (Autonomous States, limited Federal power). Since Federation, especially in the post-war years, the constitution has been amended (via referendum) to ensure more power goes to the Federal Government. Rulings by the high court regarding constitutional matters, have mostly favored Canberra.

However, I can't say that's a bad thing, so I guess this is where the similarities end. Historically, the States have been ineffective and corrupt in governance. The Federal Government on the other-hand, has generally been responsible and effective. Many laws that have been proposed limiting personal freedom and choice, have come from the States.

Speaking only for the US media, I have less and less faith in them every day that goes by. It seems like critically questioning policy proposals went out the window with our last election.

I'm almost at the point I'd prefer the retard in chief back if only for the fact I could trust the media to call him on his BS....

One part of the Media that does a excellent job at reporting are public agencies. In the US, I've found PBS to do quite good reporting, as with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation over here, and the BBC in the UK.

See, I disagree on controlling any of it other than age restrictions for minors. I believe the prohibition to be generally detrimental to a free society without really solving the social and economic issues. At least if it was legal, you could keep an eye on whats going on instead of it being hidden in the underground...

One of the issues with drugs like Meth for example, is how its usage can adversely affect others. Heightened aggression and unpredictably amongst users can possibly harm others. Domestic violence and child neglect/abuse are higher among meth users than other families, as with property and violent crime.

Some users, steal specifically to fuel their habit. Just "letting them be" places a massive burden on Social, Health and Police services. This comes at a cost to the community at large. If I'm scared to go out at night because most a bunch of meth-heads are out, then it limits my own personal liberties, in a sense. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

Here's a very interesting documentary about meth usage in Australia, I recommend you watch it, very interesting - Four Corners Broadband Edition: The Ice Age


Whats the saying? Democracy is a terrible form of gov't, its just better than every other option :D

I just worry that if we continue to increase the scope and power of gov't, eventually we will hit a point of no return. The more involved with and the more power the gov't can excercise over the daily lives of the individual, the harder it becomes to resist further power grabs.

Yes, originally spoken by Winston Churchill I believe, I was going to include it in my last post, but I didn't know the exact quote.
 
78,875Threads
2,185,391Messages
4,959Members
Back
Top