Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.

[Greatest I am]

Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.
Definition of omnipotent. ----- Having virtually unlimited authority or influence.
Definition of influence. ---- The act or power of producing an effect without apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command. The power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways: sway. IOW, unlimited powers of persuasion.
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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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When we die, believers believe that we will face a God who is said to have infinite persuasive powers and influence on the conditions of our consciousness. This power would overwhelm any reluctance for any non-believers who were not sure of God’s existence before death. For the first time, this is when full disclosure answers all questions that have prevented non-believers from believing in God.

All then would come to repentance and be saved.

Given this theology, hell would become a construct without purpose or inhabitants.

That would make Bishop Spong correct in his view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Why then would the Church invent the concept of hell?

By doing so, the Church ignores God’s omnipotence and causes God to back slide from his position of master of all time and space, to the master of just some. He would not be master of those in hell. It can be argued that God could destroy those souls but that just makes him a destroyer and not master which is his ultimate goal or intent for all souls.

Do you recognize the huge power of God’s persuasive powers that would negate or deal with any objection that the non-believer would have for his non-belief?

Do you recognize that none would choose hell and that it is therefore not required and that God would not cause his back slide by creating it?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE_TWhzG-p0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Judaism

 

[HK]

I got the impression that it's not that God can't do anything about the people in Hell, he just chooses not to.

 

[Panacea]

I got the impression that it's not that God can't do anything about the people in Hell, he just chooses not to.

It seems that's the common rationale

 

[doombug]

Why then would the Church invent the concept of hell?

I thought hell was a biblical concept.


The bible never says that God is omnipotent it even mentions some things God cannot do: Titus1:2- in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

 

[Kyle B]

Theoretically, if the Christian God exists, then everyone will find out about his existence when they die. But obviously, not everyone goes to heaven, based on their faith before dying.

 

[Greatest I am]

I got the impression that it's not that God can't do anything about the people in Hell, he just chooses not to.

Gotta have more than one channel in the heavenly T V guide.
Heaven is a rather boring place.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I thought hell was a biblical concept.


The bible never says that God is omnipotent

I must be having a problem with my reading.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

it even mentions some things God cannot do: Titus1:2- in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Hmm.
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, to cause lies or implanting them for someone else to use to deceive is to make one culpable or complicit in that lying.

Do you agree?

Further.

In the story of A $ E, God omitted telling them of a bunch of consequences to the eating of the tree of knowledge.
I call that a lie of omission.

Do you?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Theoretically, if the Christian God exists, then everyone will find out about his existence when they die. But obviously, not everyone goes to heaven, based on their faith before dying.

Yep.
That is even biblical.

James said, mythical James that is, that faith without works is dead.

Regards
DL

 

[doombug]

Revelation 19:6 says:Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Maybe you need to learn how to translate.

The hebrew word used is shadday which tranlsates to the word almighty. You can interpret it as meaning the ability to do anything but if you read the bible it clearly shows there are some things God cannot do.

1. Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions: shadday (Strong's H7706) 1. almighty, most powerful a. Shaddai, the Almighty (of God)

Hmm.
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

To me, to cause lies or implanting them for someone else to use to deceive is to make one culpable or complicit in that lying.

Do you agree?

But that isn't the topic. If God did those things it shows He cannot lie which means He is not capable of all things. It is nice that you agree with me and show the contradiction of your premise.

Further.

In the story of A $ E, God omitted telling them of a bunch of consequences to the eating of the tree of knowledge.
I call that a lie of omission.

Do you?

Regards
DL

You can try and define it to fit your premise but my point still stands.Besides you have no idea if what you are proposing is even possible. You are merely wishing the situation into existence. Nice play on words though.



Regards
db

 

[Minor Axis]

I got the impression that it's not that God can't do anything about the people in Hell, he just chooses not to.

Is'nt God the one who sends them to Hell?

I thought hell was a biblical concept.

Religion, church, bible are all intertwined. Don't you know that the church dictates what the Bible says?

The bible never says that God is omnipotent it even mentions some things God cannot do: Titus1:2- in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

If you read a passage saying God can not lie, is that because God is incapable of lying or it means he can't violate his moral standard because he refuses to? More importantly, how did the guy who wrote Titus1:2, know that? Sounds like some God fan-boy.

 

[HK]

Isn't God the one who sends them to Hell?

Didn't say he wasn't I imagine so.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I got the impression that it's not that God can't do anything about the people in Hell, he just chooses not to.

Yup. Create defective beings then punish them for their defects. Makes perfect sense.

 

[HK]

Yup. Create defective beings then punish them for their defects. Makes perfect sense.

Oh hey, it's not my religion I'm just commenting on what GIA was saying.

It does seem terribly unfair. If it were true.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Oh hey, it's not my religion I'm just commenting on what GIA was saying.

It does seem terribly unfair. If it were true.

It used to be mine....until I thought about it.

 

[Minor Axis]

You can try and define it to fit your premise but my point still stands.Besides you have no idea if what you are proposing is even possible. You are merely wishing the situation into existence. Nice play on words though.

Please clarify. I saw no significant point made.

Yup. Create defective beings then punish them for their defects. Makes perfect sense.

That would be theist logic... lol.

 

[doombug]

Please clarify. I saw no significant point made.

My point is "if God is omnipotent" depends on what is meant by "omnipotent". GIA suggests God can do anything. I don't think this is the case. I am wondering what GIA means by "omnipotent".

Since I clarified for you then tell me what your definition of omnipotent is and what you think about GIA's premise?

 

[BornReady]

Oh hey, it's not my religion I'm just commenting on what GIA was saying.

It does seem terribly unfair. If it were true.

I agree. Hell is an immoral concept. I don't expect the idea to last much longer. I'm amazed that it got as popular as it did. It makes me glad I didn't live 500 years ago.

 

[Minor Axis]

My point is "if God is omnipotent" depends on what is meant by "omnipotent". GIA suggests God can do anything. I don't think this is the case. I am wondering what GIA means by "omnipotent".

Since I clarified for you then tell me what your definition of omnipotent is and what you think about GIA's premise?

That's your earth shattering point?? What you stake your reputation on? Lol! You've got access to a dictionary about what omnipotent means. It means all powerful, unlimited power, able to do anything, control everything including our reality, snap his fingers and our universe would cease to exist if he so desired. Significantly, that is the traditional religious view of power applied to God.

So how have you come to your view that God is omnipotent or not omnipotent, which is it? Please don't blow off this question.

As far as GIA's premise, that depends on God. If God is omnipotent and has the nature Christians imagine him to have, and he wants to punish people after they die, he would have the ability to do that. But from a philosophical view the idea has very little merit. The idea comes from ancient superstitious man who views these sorts of things in terms of a human life. I don't see the point of Hell. If you are trying to make better people, you'll give them the chance to learn from their mistakes. The view that people live for an average of 70 years, then spend eternity in the hereafter, then their time on earth is just a flash. Based on this, would you as God decide their fate for eternity, or let them work on it some more? This entity is supposed to be more wise than we can imagine. Yet in the Bible he/she/it is portrayed like a brash, foolish, self centered, dictating, temper tantrum throwing baby. It does not add up with all powerful and all wise.

 

[cam elle toe]

I thought hell was a biblical concept.


The bible never says that God is omnipotent it even mentions some things God cannot do: Titus1:2- in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

I did and still do. The Op is pretty spot on. Its a man made/biblical place conjured up to "scare " us into going to church, so the priests and ministers arent on the employment queue....(round and round we go). Really, when you think about it...why would you go to church to beg forgiveness every week if you believed you had other chances to come back and fix up your past mistakes? Or if you didnt believe in the concept of eternal damnation....answer? You wouldnt. Its an awesome marketing campaign...reminds me of the AIDS one on telly here years ago with the Grim Reaper and a bowling ball.

 

[doombug]

That's your earth shattering point?? What you stake your reputation on? Lol! You've got access to a dictionary about what omnipotent means. It means all powerful, unlimited power, able to do anything, control everything including our reality, snap his fingers and our universe would cease to exist if he so desired. Significantly, that is the traditional religious view of power applied to God.

"Stake my reputation on?" hahaha! That's funny.You are sounding mighty serious MA..... easy big fella.

You see the problem is with how you define the word omnipotent. How much sense does "able to do anything" make? Not much if you look at the omnipotence paradox. As a matter of fact this definition "able to do anything" is nonsense. Think of the saying an irresistable force meets an immovable object. If a force is irresistable then there is no such thing as an immovable object. If there is an immovable object then there is no irresistable force. The two cannot exist at the same time because of the contradiction so this statement is nonsense.

"Able to do anything?" Can God create a rock so big even He can't lift it? This is an example that shows how the perception of omnipotence by some people is nonsense because of the paradox it creates.

So how have you come to your view that God is omnipotent or not omnipotent, which is it? Please don't blow off this question.

My view of omnipotence is: The ability to do anything WITHIN REASON. This addition to your definition makes the word omnipotent logical.

As far as GIA's premise, that depends on God. If God is omnipotent and has the nature Christians imagine him to have, and he wants to punish people after they die, he would have the ability to do that. But from a philosophical view the idea has very little merit. The idea comes from ancient superstitious man who views these sorts of things in terms of a human life. I don't see the point of Hell. If you are trying to make better people, you'll give them the chance to learn from their mistakes. The view that people live for an average of 70 years, then spend eternity in the hereafter, then their time on earth is just a flash. Based on this, would you as God decide their fate for eternity, or let them work on it some more? This entity is supposed to be more wise than we can imagine. Yet in the Bible he/she/it is portrayed like a brash, foolish, self centered, dictating, temper tantrum throwing baby. It does not add up with all powerful and all wise.

Using your illogical defintion of omnipotence your and GIA's premise seems logical but really it is nonsense. If you read the bible it seems that God wants humans to choose to love and trust him, hence our free will. If God created us to love Him from the start we wouldn't have free will to choose and we would be nothing but puppets. Same goes for GIA's premise. If God put us under a spell to love Him then heaven would be nothing but a puppet show. What would be the point of that? But since we have free will to choose there will be some who choose not to love God. According to the bible hell was created as a place of everlasting punishment for Satan and his demons. It seems to me the logical place for those who choose not to love God would be hell.

So you see what GIA is proposing may not even be possible to do. It isn't reasonable to create free willed beings for the purpose of choosing to love/not love God and allowing everyone to be with God in the end regardless of what choice they make. Is God omnipotent? First you have to examine how one defines the word "omnipotent" because some definitions are nonsense. If omnipotent means: the ability to do anything within reason, then sure God is omnipotent. Is GIA's premise possible? Not if God created humans with free will.