BreakfastSurreal
Well-Known Member
they probably celebrate both because your uncle liked celebrating it before he converted to judaism, and wanted to celebrate both. But it's ok if someone doesn't want to also. It's a personal decision.
Happy Hanukkah!
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GuesSAngel
Well-Known Member
well i'm not sure of my uncles reasons, it might be just for the kids and part of his upbringing. But I was just saying it b/c le said that And Jews just don't celebrate Christmas. Period.
BreakfastSurreal
Well-Known Member
just because there are some people that are jewish that don't hold to that standard doesn't mean it is viewed by the jewish community as "ok". Which is probably why he said that. I for instance, am a Christian, and would never celebrate Hanukkah. But to each his own. I don't judge though, and I don't mind other people celebrating their respective religious holidays.
BaggedSplash
Banned
i like The Hannukah Song by Andler Sandler...LOL. makes me laugh every time i hear it. "OJ Simpson....not a jew" lol
andcuriouser
Active Member
Well, okay, so I suppose some Jews would celebrate Christmas. Matt's family is fairly orthodox, so they (and he) wouldn't. He strictly observes Shabbat, only eats kosher (which isn't hard, considering he's vegan), is very involved with his synagogue. For Matt's family, the girls didn't get a bat mitzvah, males and females sit apart in the synagogue, and all the religious stuff is done in Hebrew. The whole family is very serious about following what was written in the Torah.
The whole concept of celebrating Christmas--Jesus' birth--goes against Jewish belief. I suppose you could get technical, and argue that Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, a small sect that believed that Jesus was the son of God, while most Jews believed he was a blasphemer. Still, Christianity split from Judaism when they decided not to follow God's laws; they chose to ignore certain laws (food laws, for example), and that didn't sit well with Jews.
/mini-rant.
Regardless, maybe some Jews celebrate Christmas to give their kids presents and that. I know some Jewish families in Matt's synagogue give presents to their children during Hanukkah so that they don't feel left out when they hear about all the other kids getting presents, so maybe your uncle is celebrating for similar reasons. Who knows.
BreakfastSurreal
Well-Known Member
fixed!
andcuriouser
Active Member
Matt's at the synagogue right now, and the third day of Hanukkah starts Sunday night, so he was going to post the third day tomorrow. He's really disappointed that this didn't work out the way he hoped. I haven't helped either, I know, by getting involved in the debate. Matt really hopes that he can still post the rest: there are six more days of Hanukkah, and he does have this stuff all prewritten, because he wanted to make sure he had a good representation of one of his holidays. He's a little bit upset that a debate over semantics caused people to think the way Silent has thought: "Guess I don't need to learn anymore about Hanukkah."
Matt is genuinely hurt that his religion has caused a lot of argument. I won't repeat some of the things he said, because that is for another thread and would probably turn this into an essay, but he does wish that people will make an effort to understand.
When Matt was a kid, he grew up in a prominently Jewish neighbourhood; Toronto has the second largest concentration of Jews in Canada, or something like that. He didn't have to explain this sort of thing to his friends, because they knew. In high school, he moved to a different neighbourhood, and people began to find it "weird" that he couldn't stay over at friends' places on Friday nights, or couldn't eat meat and milk in the same meal. Being so devoted to what is now not a very common religion means that there are a lot of misunderstandings about what that religion means to him, or why he practices what he does.
Matt did hope to encourage questions about this religious holiday, or even about his religion in general. But he had really hoped that there wouldn't be a debate over it.
So I apologize for contributing. I probably should have kept my mouth shut. And Matt apologizes as well. There are six days left of Hanukkah, and a post for each one, detailing more history, women's roles in the history of Hanukkah, the traditional foods, traditional gifts, even how to play dreidel. Matt was really excited to tell you about this sort of thing.
I know it may not seem like a big deal, but to Matt it is.
Peter Parka
Well-Known Member
I understand. I was genuinely intested to hear about it. I'm not religious myself but each to there own and it's interesting to learn about things which make people tick.
actually, the more i've been going to (christian) church with my fiance, the more questions I've had about Judaism - not anti views... I've questioned a lot of the violance that religion has caused, christianity, muslim, whatever it may be. But.... i don't want to side track this thread anymore
andcuriouser
Active Member
Start a new thread. Judaism 101. Matt'll answer your questions. :tongue:
GuesSAngel
Well-Known Member
i didn't think that there was a debate going? if so i must have missed it.
The third day of Hanukkah doesn't start until sundown tonight, but I will be very busy, as will Leland. He's really excited; my mom's teaching him how to make traditional Hanukkah foods (I'll explain those on a different day!).
The Third Day of Hanukkah
On the third day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and two more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the candles, starting at the left and moving to the right.
The other event in Jewish history that Hanukkah commemorates is the victory of the Jews over the armies of Antiochus IV. Mattathias Maccabee began the rebellion, and eventually the Maccabees defeated the Greek armies and rededicated the Second Temple. These events are chronicled in the books of 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees. These books are not part of the Tanakh (the Jewish bible), but part of the religious material preserved in the Septuagint.
Judaism doesn’t really celebrate military victories; the kingdom founded by descendents of the Maccabees (Hasmonean Kingdom) became corrupt, and civil war between Jews is considered deplorable, so Hanukkah does not formally celebrate these historical events. Instead, the Hanukkah celebration is for the Miracle of the Oil and the spiritual aspects of the Temple’s rededication. The oil is now a metaphor of the survival of the Jewish people through millennia of trials and tribulations.
The Third Day of Hanukkah
On the third day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and two more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the candles, starting at the left and moving to the right.
The other event in Jewish history that Hanukkah commemorates is the victory of the Jews over the armies of Antiochus IV. Mattathias Maccabee began the rebellion, and eventually the Maccabees defeated the Greek armies and rededicated the Second Temple. These events are chronicled in the books of 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees. These books are not part of the Tanakh (the Jewish bible), but part of the religious material preserved in the Septuagint.
Judaism doesn’t really celebrate military victories; the kingdom founded by descendents of the Maccabees (Hasmonean Kingdom) became corrupt, and civil war between Jews is considered deplorable, so Hanukkah does not formally celebrate these historical events. Instead, the Hanukkah celebration is for the Miracle of the Oil and the spiritual aspects of the Temple’s rededication. The oil is now a metaphor of the survival of the Jewish people through millennia of trials and tribulations.
andcuriouser
Active Member
Update from the Trope residence:
HAPPY HANUKKAH!
(included in that shout is: Paul, Matt's older brother; Laura, Paul's wife; Wendy and David, Paul's kids; Jake, Matt's younger brother; Stephanie, Matt's little sister; Ma and Da Trope; Matthew and myself; and the family dog.)
HAPPY HANUKKAH!
(included in that shout is: Paul, Matt's older brother; Laura, Paul's wife; Wendy and David, Paul's kids; Jake, Matt's younger brother; Stephanie, Matt's little sister; Ma and Da Trope; Matthew and myself; and the family dog.)
Crazy Legs!
New Member
Happy Hanukkah to all, and to all watch this video.
I'm not Jewish, BTW; I'm Chritstian, if you don't know already.
I'm not Jewish, BTW; I'm Chritstian, if you don't know already.
As always, the fourth day starts at sundown tonight!
The Fourth Day of Hanukkah
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/sonsanddaughtersof/hanukkah/day3.jpg
On the fourth day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and three more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the candles, in order of left to right.
There are two women who also play an important role in the history of Hanukkah: Judith, and Hannah. In my family, we weren’t overly concerned with Judith, as her link to Hanukkah isn’t very strong. She lived centuries before the Maccabeean revolt. Basically, what she did was cut off the head of an army general, causing the army to flee in fear. Israel wins the war. In honor of Judith’s bravery, women are to refrain from work on Hanukkah while the candles are burning. Another custom on Hanukkah to honor Judith is the consumption of dairy, since Judith gave the general salty cheese before she killed him.
The other woman, Hannah, has a much stronger tie to Hanukkah, historically. There are actually two women named Hannah, and both stories are told. The first Hannah is the sister of the Maccabees. One of the Syrian decrees against the Jews was that Jewish women had to spend their wedding nights with the local ruler. In defiance of this, Hannah stripped naked at her own wedding, and when her brothers wanted to kill her for her lewdness, she demanded that they revolt against the Syrians to protect Jewish women’s honor. Supposedly, this is how the Maccabean revolt started.
The other Hannah’s story is the one that I loved hearing most when I was a child. She was the mother of seven sons who was forced to watch while Antiochus IV tortured and killed each of her sons for not eating pork. When the last son refused to eat the pork, Antiochus IV urged Hannah to convince her son to break the Jewish commandment and eat the un-kosher meat. Hannah refused and told her youngest son to follow his older brothers’ example. My favorite part of the story was always when she whispered into her youngest son’s ear, “Say to Father Abraham, ‘Do not pride yourself on having built an altar and offered up our son Isaac. Our mother built seven altars and offered up seven sons in one day. Yours was only a test, but hers was real.’” Tradition has named this woman Hannah, but she is only ever referred to as “mother”.
The Fourth Day of Hanukkah
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h216/sonsanddaughtersof/hanukkah/day3.jpgOn the fourth day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and three more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the candles, in order of left to right.
There are two women who also play an important role in the history of Hanukkah: Judith, and Hannah. In my family, we weren’t overly concerned with Judith, as her link to Hanukkah isn’t very strong. She lived centuries before the Maccabeean revolt. Basically, what she did was cut off the head of an army general, causing the army to flee in fear. Israel wins the war. In honor of Judith’s bravery, women are to refrain from work on Hanukkah while the candles are burning. Another custom on Hanukkah to honor Judith is the consumption of dairy, since Judith gave the general salty cheese before she killed him.
The other woman, Hannah, has a much stronger tie to Hanukkah, historically. There are actually two women named Hannah, and both stories are told. The first Hannah is the sister of the Maccabees. One of the Syrian decrees against the Jews was that Jewish women had to spend their wedding nights with the local ruler. In defiance of this, Hannah stripped naked at her own wedding, and when her brothers wanted to kill her for her lewdness, she demanded that they revolt against the Syrians to protect Jewish women’s honor. Supposedly, this is how the Maccabean revolt started.
The other Hannah’s story is the one that I loved hearing most when I was a child. She was the mother of seven sons who was forced to watch while Antiochus IV tortured and killed each of her sons for not eating pork. When the last son refused to eat the pork, Antiochus IV urged Hannah to convince her son to break the Jewish commandment and eat the un-kosher meat. Hannah refused and told her youngest son to follow his older brothers’ example. My favorite part of the story was always when she whispered into her youngest son’s ear, “Say to Father Abraham, ‘Do not pride yourself on having built an altar and offered up our son Isaac. Our mother built seven altars and offered up seven sons in one day. Yours was only a test, but hers was real.’” Tradition has named this woman Hannah, but she is only ever referred to as “mother”.
The Fifth Day of Hanukkah
On the fifth day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and four more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the other candles, left to right.
Instead of presents during Hanukkah (though some families do give presents—mine didn’t), the children receive Hanukkah gelt (Yiddish for “money”). Usually it is small coins, though sometimes parents or other relatives will give a larger sum as a sort of Hanukkah present. Gelt is also made as chocolate coins, which are very common to give and to use in games of dreidel.
On the fifth day of Hanukkah, a new candle is placed at the far right, and four more are added to the left of it. The first two blessings are said over the candles, and then the shamash candle is lit and used to light the other candles, left to right.
Instead of presents during Hanukkah (though some families do give presents—mine didn’t), the children receive Hanukkah gelt (Yiddish for “money”). Usually it is small coins, though sometimes parents or other relatives will give a larger sum as a sort of Hanukkah present. Gelt is also made as chocolate coins, which are very common to give and to use in games of dreidel.
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