Free Trade Agreements- Good or Bad?

[Minor Axis]

If you're a worker in an industrial nation, Free Trade Agreements are a disaster. As long as there are other countries with: 1) Low cost workers, 2) Lax nonexistent environmental laws, 3) Nonexistent government oversight, Free trade agreements give corporations big boosts in profits while transferring millions of jobs out of your country.

If you asked the average citizen, do you want to drink, breath, and eat pollution, the answer is a resounding "NO"! Therefore is there any moral basis for shifting huge amount of manufacturing to countries who are going to trash the Earth? Besides, there is absolutely no way for clean domestic manufacturing companies to compete with dirty foreign manufacturing. What's fair about that?? Yes we get cheap products but think about it, what is the real price to our economy? Until developing countries can step up to the plate and produce a clean product, I'm a firm believer in tariffs.

Free Trade Agreements are WONDERFUL for corporations and they are AWEFUL for middle class, working class workers. It's best not to support them unless they are a clear benefit to domestic workers.

 

[LiberalVichy]

Free trade agreements are stupid. They never actually involve 'free trade'. They're named that way to appeal to conservative rhetoric. My position on the rest of your argument is probably well understood by now.

 

[Carthage]

Free Trade is good, because it helps encourage commerce between nations. But there is the problem of buisnesses leaving America. So what do we do? How about, instead of cutting off trade and forcing companies to lose a profit by making them stay at the point of a gun, how about we just make it more benificial for them to stay here by cutting taxes, wages, regulations, etc.?

 

[Tim]

Free Trade is good, because it helps encourage commerce between nations. But there is the problem of buisnesses leaving America. So what do we do? How about, instead of cutting off trade and forcing companies to lose a profit by making them stay at the point of a gun, how about we just make it more benificial for them to stay here by cutting taxes, wages, regulations, etc.?

Cutting wages? You mean paying the American worker $5 a day so we can compete with China, Indonesia, India, etc? There is a much higher standard of living here than there is in third world countries, so we will NEVER be competitive in cheap labor.

How about corporations start getting a sense of pride in this country. Nothing is going to fix the problem with trade as long as American corporations chase the dollar at all costs. They no long have any sense of national pride, they no longer care if their products are made in America or they are taking care of their work force. A corporation who is making a profit will not even have second thoughts on firing all of their employees and moving operations overseas to make a little more profit. That's some of the problem right there....

 

[Carthage]

Cutting wages? You mean paying the American worker $5 a day so we can compete with China, Indonesia, India, etc? There is a much higher standard of living here than there is in third world countries, so we will NEVER be competitive in cheap labor.

How about corporations start getting a sense of pride in this country. Nothing is going to fix the problem with trade as long as American corporations chase the dollar at all costs. They no long have any sense of national pride, they no longer care if their products are made in America or they are taking care of their work force. A corporation who is making a profit will not even have second thoughts on firing all of their employees and moving operations overseas to make a little more profit. That's some of the problem right there....

How about we just delete the minimum wage, that way all people earn as much as they deserve. Those that earn less then they know is right, they go to another job. It's called fairness and justice. The only fair is laisezz-faire.

We can't ask people to sacrafice their corporations for the country. I don't blame them for having no national pride - when people like Barack Obama have a 46% approval rating of out of about 85% decided, I find myself lacking in pride. Yes, this country has a great system of governmnet, but if your suffering under it, it's a sacrafice to stay here - and no man should sacrafice what he doesn't need to.
Profit is the whole goal of a corporation, and it is because of that that we have our industrialized modern society. So how about, instead of them staying and losing a profit, along with the industrial modern society, we just let them make more profit here? That will increase their profit and their national pride, and now they have a reason for it.

 

[Tim]

No minimum wage? I take it you really didn't put a lot of thought behind that statement. In one sentence you say, "How about we just delete the minimum wage," and a little later you say that, "Profit is the whole goal of a corporation,". Do you see how these two do not go together?
The one main reason this wouldn't work is that the vast amount of Americans that live in rural areas don't have as many options when it comes to where they work. The corporations would have a nice captive audience to take advantage of.
The principal of supply and demand would keep most wages higher in populous areas, but the poorer sections of the country would be devastated by the removal of the minimum wage. This is why it's here, we don't live in a country where everyone has the same opportunities.

We can't ask people to sacrafice their corporations for the country. I don't blame them for having no national pride - when people like Barack Obama have a 46% approval rating of out of about 85% decided, I find myself lacking in pride. Yes, this country has a great system of governmnet, but if your suffering under it, it's a sacrafice to stay here - and no man should sacrafice what he doesn't need to.

Wow! I mean really wow!
So the almighty dollar trumps American pride every time? I guess you would have no problem selling out your fellow Americans for enough cash, eh?
There really isn't much difference.

 

[Carthage]

No minimum wage? I take it you really didn't put a lot of thought behind that statement. In one sentence you say, "How about we just delete the minimum wage," and a little later you say that, "Profit is the whole goal of a corporation,". Do you see how these two do not go together?
The one main reason this wouldn't work is that the vast amount of Americans that live in rural areas don't have as many options when it comes to where they work. The corporations would have a nice captive audience to take advantage of.
The principal of supply and demand would keep most wages higher in populous areas, but the poorer sections of the country would be devastated by the removal of the minimum wage. This is why it's here, we don't live in a country where everyone has the same opportunities.

We can't just arbitrarily delete the minimum wage, I agree. We need to have a decent philosophy governing the nation, but someday, we must delete the minimum wage. Having a minimum wage gives more to those who don't earn it, and undercuts new workers.
The rural areas argument - think about this. If a lot of corporations go into the midwest, and the rest of the rural areas, those areas will quickly develop, won't they? That will help the people. Eventually, there would be more people in rural areas, so the law of supply and demand would even out the wages there.
And we don't live in a country where everyone has the same opportunities because of things like the minimum wage. It lowers the amount of people accepted into the workforce because the companies have to pay their workers too much. It is unjust and unfair.

Here are some resources on deleting the minimum wage:

www.progressiveu.org/160000-why-we-should-eliminate-minimum-wage
Raising the Minimum Wage Hurts Vulnerable Workers' Job Prospects Without Reducing Poverty
The Minimum Wage: Good Intentions, Bad Results| The Foundation for Economic Education: The Freeman, Ideas on Liberty
Mythology of the Minimum Wage - D.W. MacKenzie - Mises Institute
Minimum Wage Is Bad Policy
www.geocities.com/fountoftruth/minwage.html

Wow! I mean really wow!
So the almighty dollar trumps American pride every time? I guess you would have no problem selling out your fellow Americans for enough cash, eh?
There really isn't much difference.

I don't agree with your 3rd and 4th sentance. How they live and what they do with their lives and their things is their buisness; the corporation of a businessman is his, and he shouldn't have to sacrafice it. He isn't selling out others, he's just saving his own creation.
Yeah, the dollar trumps national pride. My loyalty goes to my creations before anything else. The thing about America is that the dollar is a good thing here, so loving your money is about equivelant to loving America (but loving America also includes loving democracy and freedom, that's why it's not exactly equal). Unfortunatley, we're moving farther and farther away from that.

 

[Peter Parka]

Having a minimum wage gives more to those who don't earn it

Actually, over here, it's been the opposite. It's impossible for a man with a wife and a couple of kids to support his family on minimum wage but he is now liable to get his job seekers allowance cut if he dosent accept one if things are getting that bad. I think there needs to be a more flexible minimum wage. I don't know where you're coming from about it gives more to those who dont earn it. We have standards and I dont care what shitty job you do, you are earning your 5 crappy pounds an hour at the least. Do you really want to go back to the old days and having loads of people living in poverty or something?:unsure:

 

[Carthage]

Actually, over here, it's been the opposite. It's impossible for a man with a wife and a couple of kids to support his family on minimum wage but he is now liable to get his job seekers allowance cut if he dosent accept one if things are getting that bad. I think there needs to be a more flexible minimum wage. I don't know where you're coming from about it gives more to those who dont earn it. We have standards and I dont care what shitty job you do, you are earning your 5 crappy pounds an hour at the least. Do you really want to go back to the old days and having loads of people living in poverty or something?:unsure:

Needs do not create rights. Because someone needs more pay does not give them a right to it. There is an objective amount to earn for each job, and giving a minimum wage undercuts that, and disturbs the entire economy. Here in Maine, the minimum wage is 7.25 or 7.50, but I don't think that a janitor should be earning that much. It's undercutting objective values for jobs. The janitor does not earn 7.25 and hour, but he gets it.
No, I don't want the old days of mass poverty, but I don't think the minimum wage helps us move away from that.

 

[Peter Parka]

So would you rather drive people away from doing a janitors job by not giving them enough money to live on? Lets see how you would like it if their were no janitors. Bet you'd be the first to complain.

 

[Minor Axis]

how about we just make it more benificial for them to stay here by cutting taxes, wages, regulations, etc.?

You mean turn the U.S. into a 3rd world country?

I've been saying all along that the only goal of the corporation is to make money. I won't say they are all bad, but a significant percentage of them don't give a damn about the country or the people. That is why you need to have a pro-active government who is looking out for the interests of the majority of people in the country- working class people. I believe that has been a subject of some futuristic science fiction stories- large multi-national corporations who have no allegiance to any country who become the de-facto powers on the earth.

 

[Carthage]

So would you rather drive people away from doing a janitors job by not giving them enough money to live on? Lets see how you would like it if their were no janitors. Bet you'd be the first to complain.

Once we turn the US into a free market economy, a janitor's wage will be plenty for him to live in a studio apartment and get his basic necessities. I think that there need to be janitors, but I don't think that people should stay janitors. They should be just temporary jobs for those who need to climb the ladder or have to find a way to get back up on their feet.

You mean turn the U.S. into a 3rd world country?

No, keep it modernized. Taxes, min wage, etc., all hurt the economy and bring it down to the 3rd world level at some point. Note that almost every impovershed nation has some form of socialism or corporatism installed.

I've been saying all along that the only goal of the corporation is to make money. I won't say they are all bad, but a significant percentage of them don't give a damn about the country or the people

Have you read my posts? Yes, the corporations mostly just chase the almighty $, and I don't want them not to! I don't want them to give a damn over how far back on the rent my family is, or how our pantry is nearly empty. I want them to just make their money - selfishness is a virtue. It helps us all later.

That is why you need to have a pro-active government who is looking out for the interests of the majority of people in the country- working class people. I believe that has been a subject of some futuristic science fiction stories- large multi-national corporations who have no allegiance to any country who become the de-facto powers on the earth.

The government only has one right - the right to cancel out force. In that respect, you do need to have a proactive government looking out for everyone's interests. But it does not have the right to help people achieve - if they do, that is a denial of the fact that those people should not succeed because they are not willing to help themselves. People should all help themselves - think of what a great world this would be if they did.
Plus, those sci-fi stories are illogical. Unless there is a government, monopolies cannot exist. They will be undercut by competitors every time they try to over price something or undercut the laws of the market. Unless there was a government to help them, those corporations could never have succeded.

 

[Peter Parka]

selfishness is a virtue. It helps us all later.

:24::24::24:

 

[FreeWorkVest]

Once we turn the US into a free market economy, a janitor's wage will be plenty for him to live in a studio apartment and get his basic necessities. I think that there need to be janitors, but I don't think that people should stay janitors. They should be just temporary jobs for those who need to climb the ladder or have to find a way to get back up on their feet.


No, keep it modernized. Taxes, min wage, etc., all hurt the economy and bring it down to the 3rd world level at some point. Note that almost every impovershed nation has some form of socialism or corporatism installed.



Have you read my posts? Yes, the corporations mostly just chase the almighty $, and I don't want them not to! I don't want them to give a damn over how far back on the rent my family is, or how our pantry is nearly empty. I want them to just make their money - selfishness is a virtue. It helps us all later.



The government only has one right - the right to cancel out force. In that respect, you do need to have a proactive government looking out for everyone's interests. But it does not have the right to help people achieve - if they do, that is a denial of the fact that those people should not succeed because they are not willing to help themselves. People should all help themselves - think of what a great world this would be if they did.
Plus, those sci-fi stories are illogical. Unless there is a government, monopolies cannot exist. They will be undercut by competitors every time they try to over price something or undercut the laws of the market. Unless there was a government to help them, those corporations could never have succeded.

I really hope you don't believe all this. Here are simple facts - countries with no minimum wage are the poorest, least developed in the world. The countries with established minimum wages have the highest standard of living. Same can be said for taxes. The happiest, most educated, healthiest, longest lived people in the world have governments that support the people.

 

[Peter Parka]

I wonder if Carthage thought Saddams selfishness was a virtue which helped all his people later?

 

[FreeWorkVest]

I wonder if Carthage thought Saddams selfishness was a virtue which helped all his people later?

It was a virtue until he threatend Bush family oil holdings in Kuwait.

 

[Carthage]

I wonder if Carthage thought Saddams selfishness was a virtue which helped all his people later?

Saddam was not selfish - he lived through others, existing so that they would worship him. That is not selfishness - that is second-hand living, living through other's perceptions of yourself. That is not selfishness - notice how there is no independent self in having others worship you.
Plus, he was illogical.

I really hope you don't believe all this. Here are simple facts - countries with no minimum wage are the poorest, least developed in the world. The countries with established minimum wages have the highest standard of living. Same can be said for taxes. The happiest, most educated, healthiest, longest lived people in the world have governments that support the people.

I see. And, have you ever been to these countries?
The no minimum wage one I will concede, but that is only because they are illogical, mystical countries ruled by dictators who really don't give a fuck.

It was a virtue until he threatend Bush family oil holdings in Kuwait.

Not cool, man. Not cool.

 

[Peter Parka]

Saddam was not selfish - he lived through others, existing so that they would worship him. That is not selfishness - that is second-hand living, living through other's perceptions of yourself. That is not selfishness - notice how there is no independent self in having others worship you.
Plus, he was illogical.



.

You dont think being a dictator of a country where you are one of the richest people on earth and your subjects are living in poverty is selfish??? :wtf:

 

[FreeWorkVest]

I see. And, have you ever been to these countries?
The no minimum wage one I will concede, but that is only because they are illogical, mystical countries ruled by dictators who really don't give a fuck.

I don't have to fly to the moon to know it doesn't have an atmosphere. Besides, look at the statistics, Healthiest, best educated, etc. Scandinavian countries are ALWAYS at the top of them. They are also at the top of the highest taxes list too.

Not cool, man. Not cool.

Sorry to tarnish your cherished beliefs with the truth

 

[Carthage]

You dont think being a dictator of a country where you are one of the richest people on earth and your subjects are living in poverty is selfish??? :wtf:

Selfishness - n. Being concerned only with one's own interests. Living for yourself only.

A dictator lives vicariously through others. He does not live for himself, and he cannot live by himself. He is not concerned only with himself, he is concerned with how others view him. That is being second-hand. He has no self - therefore, he is not selfish.

I don't have to fly to the moon to know it doesn't have an atmosphere. Besides, look at the statistics, Healthiest, best educated, etc. Scandinavian countries are ALWAYS at the top of them. They are also at the top of the highest taxes list too.

You do realize that it's possible to prove anything with statistics?
Plus, have you ever thought about attributing this - assuming it is real - to their work ethic?

Sorry to tarnish your cherished beliefs with the truth

:thumbdown