Fiscal cliff ? or is it ?

[Accountable]

Yes, taxes are bad.....but let's be brutally honest, consistently spending more than you raise is worse. The only way forward is to raise taxes AND cut expenditure. Trouble is, doing so at the levels required to make a difference will push the USA over the fiscal cliff and back into recession.

I mostly agree. Raising taxes and cutting spending is obviously not the only way, but it's the only way that the politicians will consider, since their real priority is reelection rather than actually doing their jobs right. Past irresponsible policy has put us in an untenable position. The only think keeping us out of recession is more bad policy.

A good analogy is the old way of the forest service. The gov't stepped in to save the forests by stopping even natural brush fires. As a consequence, the brush kept growing unchecked, so that when fires did get started they destroyed much more forest than if the brush had burned when still small. In much the same way, gov't interference in the economy has kept natural fluctuation from occurring, so that now we are facing a major raging forest fire rather than the predictable, manageable grass fire.

The good news is that history has shown that forests grow back after fires, and economies will rebound if only the government will get the fuck out of the way.

 

[Minor Axis]

Anyone who has only experienced the US has no real frame of reference concerning "haves and have-nots", especially if they think the terms adequately describe American society. It's as ridiculous as a rich person thinking that taking one of this year's vacations in-country rather than abroad fits the definition of "sacrifice".

It's this lack of perspective that allows Washington to get away with reducing the rate of increasing spending while increasing tax rates and calling it cutbacks.

Since I was the last to mention haves and have-nots, can I assume your lack of perspective comment is addressed to me?

If so, I'll tell you I've spent a lot of time in 3rd world countries and know what real poverty is. As if I have to tell you in a society, everything is relative. And are you really trying to tie "lack of perspective of world economics" to bad semantics when it comes to spending cuts vs cutting tax increases? You're trying too hard to make your case. :smiley24:

 

[Accountable]

Since I was the last to mention haves and have-nots, can I assume your lack of perspective comment is addressed to me?

If so, I'll tell you I've spent a lot of time in 3rd world countries and know what real poverty is. As if I have to tell you in a society, everything is relative. And are you really trying to tie "lack of perspective of world economics" to bad semantics when it comes to spending cuts vs cutting tax increases? You're trying too hard to make your case. :smiley24:

I'm tying the bad semantics to the political histrionics of claiming that everyone who qualifies for food stamps is poverty-stricken.

And since you've seen real poverty, how can you claim that what we have in the US can in any way meet that definition?

 

[The Man]

I'm tying the bad semantics to the political histrionics of claiming that everyone who qualifies for food stamps is poverty-stricken.

And since you've seen real poverty, how can you claim that what we have in the US can in any way meet that definition?

Indeed we are far from being one of the poor countries.
Although we do fall behind France Libya and China

Here the poverty stricken often have cellphones, cable tv, computers and 20 inch rims for the ride.

I am not saying that we dont have poor by any means ...but we have merely shifted our definition of poor..the poor here are rich in many nations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Percent_poverty_world_map.png

 

[Minor Axis]

I'm tying the bad semantics to the political histrionics of claiming that everyone who qualifies for food stamps is poverty-stricken.

And since you've seen real poverty, how can you claim that what we have in the US can in any way meet that definition?

Again, it is a relative society standard. We can define it any way we want to. Are you saying that someone who makes 10k per year and lives in the U.S. is not living in poverty? You need to hone your definitions and so should I. What I was thinking of in 3rd world countries was the second definition.

Poverty: Poverty is the state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money.
Destitute: Without the basic necessities of life.

 

[Accountable]

Again, it is a relative society standard. We can define it any way we want to. Are you saying that someone who makes 10k per year and lives in the U.S. is not living in poverty? You need to hone your definitions and so should I. What I was thinking of in 3rd world countries was the second definition.

Poverty: Poverty is the state of one who lacks a certain amount of material possessions or money.
Destitute: Without the basic necessities of life.

There's a difference between poverty and relative poverty, but too many people use the first term when they should use second, especially politicians and people who want the gov't to take care of them. My sister has no income of her own and is unable to work due to medical issues. She can't work, and she has a special needs adult daughter who requires constant care. Is she in poverty? Certainly she could be, but not even close. She owns a car and pays insurance on it. She lives in a brick house with cable and high-speed internet service. We talk regularly on her house phone or cell phone, as she chooses. All this obtained legally, courtesy of the American taxpayer, some federal, a lot of it state. Relative poverty ain't too shabby.

We in America are tremendously generous to our own people and people all over the world. It really disgusts me when people try to paint our poor as being as poverty-stricken as people in the Third World. There is no comparison.

 

[Minor Axis]

My sister has no income of her own and is unable to work due to medical issues. She can't work, and she has a special needs adult daughter who requires constant care. Is she in poverty? Certainly she could be, but not even close. She owns a car and pays insurance on it. She lives in a brick house with cable and high-speed internet service. We talk regularly on her house phone or cell phone, as she chooses. All this obtained legally, courtesy of the American taxpayer, some federal, a lot of it state. Relative poverty ain't too shabby.

So do you, Allen, and The Man believe in this kind of support through tax payer dollars? Or should people in this situation be forced to live with other members of their family who can support them, if they are lucky enough to have someone who can? And if they are not lucky?

What State does she live in, is it blue or red (I'm curious)?

 

[Accountable]

So do you, Allen, and The Man believe in this kind of support through tax payer dollars? Or should people in this situation be forced to live with other members of their family who can support them, if they are lucky enough to have someone who can? And if they are not lucky?

What State does she live in, is it blue or red (I'm curious)?

I won't permit you to use my personal (or familial) situation as a political punchbag. I regret having even posted it.

 

[The Man]

So do you, Allen, and The Man believe in this kind of support through tax payer dollars? Or should people in this situation be forced to live with other members of their family who can support them, if they are lucky enough to have someone who can? And if they are not lucky?

What State does she live in, is it blue or red (I'm curious)?

How is that a response as to whether in your opinion that is poverty.

 

[Minor Axis]

I won't permit you to use my personal (or familial) situation as a political punchbag. I regret having even posted it.

Just a question for when the subject is close to home. We all know people who live on different economic scales and the reasons are varied. You brought us an example because you thought it was relevant and apparently you have some feelings on the subject. I have no intention of punching your loved one. Remember I'm one of the moderates in the forum and I respect your right to shut this aspect of the discussion down.

How is that a response as to whether in your opinion that is poverty.

No one views poverty in a complete neutral manner. There is cause, effect, blame, empathy, intentions, and good will. When an example is held up, it becomes a legitimate question especially against a conservative pack like we have in this forum. You do acknowledge, I'd be on the defending side, right?

 

[Alien Allen]

Remember I'm one of the moderates in the forum

:24::24::24::24:

coming from an admitted socialist that is just too friggin hilarious Minor

 

[Stone]

........................Remember I'm one of the moderates in the forum ...............................

OK....that made me laugh, too.......

 

[Accountable]

Just a question for when the subject is close to home.

Bull shit. You saw a shot and took it. It was low and you know it. I just have to be more careful next time.

You brought us an example because you thought it was relevant and apparently you have some feelings on the subject.

The subject was relative poverty, not welfare. Try to stick to it and we won't have a problem.

 

[Minor Axis]

:24::24::24::24:

coming from an admitted socialist that is just too friggin hilarious Minor

I knew the statement would elicit some guffaws, regardless if it is true. I can see how you might have that idea. Although I see Socialism as a possible path forward for society, it's the execution that would worry me. Both Capitalism and Socialism are only as good as the people running it.

Bull shit. You saw a shot and took it. It was low and you know it. I just have to be more careful next time.
The subject was relative poverty, not welfare. Try to stick to it and we won't have a problem.[/COLOR]

I don't want to fight with you but I have to redirect BS back at ya. Although you feel that way, you have no grounds to call my actions "low". This is a debate forum. It's low when I ask your conservative forum group for an opinion of an example of poverty you introduced? Think about it. :smiley24:

 

[Accountable]

 

[Accountable]

[video=youtube;Z31PB2z29EQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z31PB2z29EQ[/video]

A local talk radio guy made this parody. If you can get past the crappy singing it's pretty clever.