Failed Abortion story + question:

[Natasha]

I don't want to get into the abortion debate...but I do want to bring up a point. What kind of problems do you think this kid will have once it reaches puberty and realizes that his parents actually tried to terminate the pregnancy??? That's not just a "you weren't a mistake, you were a surprise" speech...that's a 'well, we really thought we had gotten rid of you but it turns out the doctors didn't do the procedure right...so here ya are" speech. WOW!!!

 

[Obdurate]

We realize you get annoyed with the idea that killing = death. Coming from a position of assuming a fetus is a human being though, who would we be to NOT use as strong a language as possible in the description of the event?

See, that's the typical SPIN I get annoyed at. I'm aware that killing = death, don't treat me like an idiot. All you did was miss the point, anyways. What annoys me is that just because I'm pro-choice, pro-lifers spin it to make it look like I want babies to die. I don't want anything. Hell I don't want to be involved in the decision of whether or not someone else does it.

3 choices:
Pro-life
Pro-Choice
Pro-Death

Pro-death may be rare but you can't just paint shit black and white. There's a gray/middle area. That's where I am. Because it's the only position that judges things on a case by case basis.

 

[gillibean]

My personal views don't matter. The government should be telling me or anyone else what to do with our bodies.

 

[GraceAbounds]

What annoys me is that just because I'm pro-choice, pro-lifers spin it to make it look like I want babies to die.

Well, either you do or you don't. Even apathy would in essense support babies dying even if not intentional. There are plenty of things I support unintentionally that I shouldn't ... but I don't have enough time in my life for all causes.

I don't want anything. Hell I don't want to be involved in the decision of whether or not someone else does it.

Not taking a stance is still taking a stance though, whether you want to be involved in the decision - you are.

3 choices:
Pro-life
Pro-Choice
Pro-Death

This is how I see it:

Pro-Life: Self explanatory
Pro-Choice: I will not take a stand on whether the fetus/baby/whatever you want to call life is destroyed or not.
Pro-Death: Self explanatory

I don't believe there is a gray area when it comes to killing someone. It is either in self-defense or it isn't.

My personal views don't matter. The government should be telling me or anyone else what to do with our bodies.

No, but they can tell you what you are not allowed to do with other people's bodies. And those little fetus/babies/whatever youw ant to call life is 'other bodies' ... I've held them in my hand.

 

[Obdurate]

Well pro-choice is taking a stance, I won't deny that. Fence sitting in general is a stance. I'm just saying that I won't be involved in if you kill a baby or not. I'm not a part of the decision someone else makes unless they ask my opinion, in which case I'll judge what they tell me, tell them the pros and cons of abortion and let them decide.

I don't agree that you either do want babies killed or not, unless maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said, because it would depend on the situation.
Besides, doesn't matter what I think, I won't tell somebody what to do.

The gray area just means that people should look at things as they are then make a decision, not have a predetermined outlook on it.

Another thing that shapes my decision to be pro-choice (that's funny wording for some reason..), is the fact that I eat animals. I just can't bring myself to be pro-life when I participate in the killing of animals. But of course it's more complicated than that, just trying to simplify.

 

[gillibean]

Well, either you do or you don't. Even apathy would in essense support babies dying even if not intentional. There are plenty of things I support unintentionally that I shouldn't ... but I don't have enough time in my life for all causes.


Not taking a stance is still taking a stance though, whether you want to be involved in the decision - you are.


This is how I see it:

Pro-Life: Self explanatory
Pro-Choice: I will not take a stand on whether the fetus/baby/whatever you want to call life is destroyed or not.
Pro-Death: Self explanatory

I don't believe there is a gray area when it comes to killing someone. It is either in self-defense or it isn't.


No, but they can tell you what you are not allowed to do with other people's bodies. And those little fetus/babies/whatever youw ant to call life is 'other bodies' ... I've held them in my hand.

The fetus is part of the mother's body until it is born. It is not a separate entity until that cord is cut. I'm not telling you that abortion is okay. If that were my opinion, i wouldn't try to force it on anyone else.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

All this talk of stage of status from initial stages of development to formation. Consider this:

Before an egg develops into a chick (you know...when it's in its gooey state), how do you consider the content of the egg?
Do you consider that when you buy those eggs to make breakfast (or to add in cakes or whatnot) that you're frying egg yolk or frying chickens and putting chickens in cake or milk shakes etc etc.

Egg yolk or chicken? Food for thought.

Discuss.

 

[Ziggy Zeus]

See, that's the typical SPIN I get annoyed at. I'm aware that killing = death, don't treat me like an idiot. All you did was miss the point, anyways. What annoys me is that just because I'm pro-choice, pro-lifers spin it to make it look like I want babies to die. I don't want anything. Hell I don't want to be involved in the decision of whether or not someone else does it.

3 choices:
Pro-life
Pro-Choice
Pro-Death

Pro-death may be rare but you can't just paint shit black and white. There's a gray/middle area. That's where I am. Because it's the only position that judges things on a case by case basis.

Perfectly sums it up. Like I said, it's the Woman's choice and she should be able to make whatever decisions she wants regarding her body and her baby.

To say "killing babies" is just fucking ignorant. Are you even aware of the definition of baby? I'm not going to type paragraphs upon paragraphs because it would be pointless, some people have their stance on this subject and this subject in particular is a tough one to try and change somebody else's mind on it. The fact is, nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Whatever is right for one woman may not be right for another. The point is that she should be able to choose.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

This is one of those issues you can argue about forever and never get any kind of consensus.

It's like religion and politics. Same ole same ole.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

To say "killing babies" is just fucking ignorant. Are you even aware of the definition of baby?

That's the comparison I was getting at with the chicken and the egg.

No one has yet replied to that.

All this talk of stage of status from initial stages of development to formation. Consider this:

Before an egg develops into a chick (you know...when it's in its gooey state), how do you consider the content of the egg?
Do you consider that when you buy those eggs to make breakfast (or to add in cakes or whatnot) that you're frying egg yolk or frying chickens and putting chickens in cake or milk shakes etc etc.

Egg yolk or chicken? Food for thought.

Discuss.

 

[Ziggy Zeus]

Yeah I know, it wasn't directed at you or anything I was just saying.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Myself I prefer eggs for breakfast and chicken for dinner although occassionaly will reverse it!

I'm partial to rotisserie myself.

Leg and thigh thank you. Although I would not refuse breasts.

 

[Ziggy Zeus]

I enjoy breasts.

 

[Obdurate]

That's the comparison I was getting at with the chicken and the egg.

No one has yet replied to that.

Well I don't disagree with you so I'm exempt, as well!

If anything happens in this thread, I just want pro-lifers to acknowledge that pro-choice is not pro-death. That's all.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

I enjoy breasts.

That's Mulder's position--actually Mulder would not refuse any position! :cool

All this talk of breasts is getting me peckish. :nod:

 

[All Else Failed]

Im not really sure how to reply to this, but Im sorry I really didnt look at my unborn child the first few weeks as a parasite thats pretty crude and I feel sorry for you that you feel that way

It is. its just how things are.


But yeah, this is a nice story and all, but there's still that horrible kidney disease it will have to put up with.

 

[All Else Failed]

We realize you get annoyed with the idea that killing = death. Coming from a position of assuming a fetus is a human being though, who would we be to NOT use as strong a language as possible in the description of the event?

I was always on the fence, but constantly supported right to choose... until I saw my son on our first ultrasound. He was only a couple of weeks into development, but there were arms and legs and a heart, and he was moving around. The motion was decisively human in nature.

In that second I became a full blooded abortion (past a heartbeat) is killing a child kind of guy.

A question for pro-choice groups... when does a fetus become a child? Is it when his or her skull touches air for the first time? What changes exactly in that moment?

It becomes a person when it gets active brainwaves.

 

[Breath]

Do you consider that when you buy those eggs to make breakfast (or to add in cakes or whatnot) that you're frying egg yolk or frying chickens and putting chickens in cake or milk shakes etc etc.

Most commercially available eggs for human consumption are unfertilized. Therefore it's not even a question of whether you're eating an egg or a chicken. An unfertilized egg will never be a chicken.

 

[COOL_BREEZE2]

Most commercially available eggs for human consumption are unfertilized. Therefore it's not even a question of whether you're eating an egg or a chicken. An unfertilized egg will never be a chicken.

Soooooo....are you saying that chickens on the whole don't lay eggs that later form or evolve into chickens?

opcorn2:

 

[Breath]

Soooooo....are you saying that chickens on the whole don't lay eggs that later form or evolve into chickens?

Biology 101

A chicken needs a rooster to fertilize it in order to lay an egg which develops into a chicken.
Chickens can lay eggs, even if they've never been in contact with a rooster. The eggs are unfertilized and not capable of developing into a chicken.