Ethanol....Wonder Fuel or Farce?

BadBoy@TheWheel

BadBoy@TheWheel

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From a standpoint that is purely scientific, I can say that it is the cleaner and safer alternative for Gasoline. Alcohol, having the low flash point that it does produces practically no emissions when fully combusted.

BUT there are other issues that cause problems with the premise of possibly seeing a day and age where it is a primary source of fuel.

Pipelines willl have to be almost totally re-worked, primarily due to high levels of moisture conducive to petroleum pipelines, this issue would have to be fixed. Water will destroy a batch of pure ethanol. Seals, gasketing and metallurgy will all have to be taken on a acase by case scenario.

save but for the past few years, practically every vehicle on the road is to some extent unable to run high ethanol content based fuels based on many issues, namely, seals and hoses. Ethanol leeches natural oils that exist in certain types of rubber rendering them in short time, dry rotted and useless.

But, all things being equal, and time creating open mindedness, Ethanol from a purely environmental standpoint is a safer alternative.

Of course limited shelf life, poor BTU rating, somewhat dangerous flash point, and its ready evaporative state will be something that needs to be looked into and understood also.
 
Running pure ethanol isn't going to be any more economical, because it's gas mileage is far worse than petroleum. Local guys here tuning on E85 are starting to figure this out. But I guess it's a start - and better than nothing. :dunno
 
HisHoliness said:
Running pure ethanol isn't going to be any more economical, because it's gas mileage is far worse than petroleum. Local guys here tuning on E85 are starting to figure this out. But I guess it's a start - and better than nothing. :dunno
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Yes, it is a good start. I hate to get into the political side of this though, considering the context of my original post.

BUT, the issue a lot of folks do not see, is that the government is slowly working its way towards incorporating the farms that grow corn, basically letting huge Ag conglomerates take them over. Thus negating the whole concept of "Helping out the American Farmer" that guyy gets it in the ass again.

AND, between subsidies, lack of adequate US corn sources, not to mention the HUGE losses taken when making Ethanol, it is not only less efficient by at least 20% in your vehicle, but also, gallon to gallon, much more costly to manufacture.

BUT...It is a step in the direction of alternatives.
 
HisHoliness said:
And its octane rating is through the roof compared to typical pump gas. That's about its only plus side in my eyes.
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Yeah, but Octane rating can be....Difficult to grasp.

Basically there is no such thing as 93 octane gasoline.

Natural gasoline comes straight from the refining process, finished at around 83-85 Octane. Then it is blended with a variety of either Oxygenates, or other high voliatles to raise the BTU value.

The addition of ethanol, in the end, does not really help with either power, nor efficiency because its flash point is damn near atmospheric at ambient temperatures. More than anything, it combusts complete.

*I may be giving away what I do...lol*
 
Well I don't know much about it from a technical sense, just what I observed. Running ridiculous amounts of boost on the dyno without any detonation. We saw way more power using E85, I'm assuming because my buddy could crank up the boost with no ill effects. I guess it was kind of like running water injection.
 
HisHoliness said:
Well I don't know much about it from a technical sense, just what I observed. Running ridiculous amounts of boost on the dyno without any detonation. We saw way more power using E85, I'm assuming because my buddy could crank up the boost with no ill effects. I guess it was kind of like running water injection.
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Aha. A man after my own heart, as I am building a 900+ blower motor for my 93 Notch. And the reason that ethanol limits detonation is flame center distortion reduction.

In simple terms, the incoming charge air is actually cooled by the cooling effect produced by the combustion of alcohol, this phenomenon helps not only to cool the cylinders thus promoting better combustion, but also limits the impact on the combustin chamber velocites due to the same reduction in heat.

Okay....Probably as clear as mud....Sorry.

Ethanol burns cooler, reduces cylinder heat, prevents overheating of the flame center that causes detonation...Better...lol
 
BadBoy@TheWheel said:
Yeah, but Octane rating can be....Difficult to grasp.

Basically there is no such thing as 93 octane gasoline.

Natural gasoline comes straight from the refining process, finished at around 83-85 Octane. Then it is blended with a variety of either Oxygenates, or other high voliatles to raise the BTU value.

The addition of ethanol, in the end, does not really help with either power, nor efficiency because its flash point is damn near atmospheric at ambient temperatures. More than anything, it combusts complete.

*I may be giving away what I do...lol*
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Are we talking about E85 ethanol made from 15% gasoline and 85% corn oil?

The states grow enough corn to feed millions of FFV and everyone in the US easily.

Last time I remember reading about gasoline, it's refined to remove impurities, thus you get natural 83-85 up to 89, 91 and 93 octane levels.
 
TheOriginalJames said:
Are we talking about E85 ethanol made from 15% gasoline and 85% corn oil?

The states grow enough corn to feed millions of FFV and everyone in the US easily.

Last time I remember reading about gasoline, it's refined to remove impurities, thus you get natural 83-85 up to 89, 91 and 93 octane levels.
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Well considering this is my occupation, I can say...No.

Blending components have high octane ratings. Natural finished gasoline is not near as high as you think. Advertised Octane is post blending.

And we buy an abundance of the corn that is used in the manufacturing of Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol). Trust me, it's not cost effective.
 
TheOriginalJames said:
I didn't say it was cost effective...

but it is a new technology. two years ago E85 followed the cost of 89 octane. Now it's 60-70 cents cheaper per gallon.

As for the blending, I realize that.
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I'll agree it's a step in the right direction. Above that, it's not the long term solution.

In the end, it will in fact wind up costing the end user more money.

BUT...It's a start.

Man...I need sleep. Later OJ, fun chatting with you as always:)
 
I think James is correct about the price moving as the technology matures. I also believe we have the metallurgic capability today to make a pure ethanol I.C.E. a long term device.

My problem with trying to move the economy from almost pure oil to pure ethanol is more basic: Which is worse? Foreign dependence for driving our cars, or foreign dependence for feeding our families? For most people, food is a need, while driving is a convenience.

Everything is already made with corn. Corn starch, corn syrup, corn this, corn that, pet food, etc.... Cattle and horses eat corn. Humans eat corn. How much corn are we planning on growing?

I believe the price of moving our vehicles from point A to point B will probably in the end stay the same, because the market has already identified the price we're willing to pay for said move.

I think the air would likely be cleaner for our efforts.

I think we're going to be paying a LOT more for our grocery's and steak dinners. I think the government is going to have to step in and start subsidizing non-corn growing farmers to make it worth their while to grow anything but corn. Why grow potatoes and sell them for $.20 a bushel when you could grow corn and sell it to the fuel industry for $.45 a bushel?

IMHO, I think we're getting greedy with our desire for one large fix to the pollution problem. I think we need to take a broader look at this, and understand that too much of anything is a bad thing. I think we should consider all of our current options, and install them where they fit best.

All new constructions should be built with solar power cells. All cities should be required to generate at least x% of their energy from clean technology, weather it be solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, etc.... We need to invest in better capacitors so we can get off of traditional batteries. Bio-fuel is important, but let's match our production capability for it. How about if we only used it for freight? Use Hydrogen / Electric for family cars, and let aircraft stay on oil.

Diversity is the spice of life in so many ways is it not? :)
 
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