End of life question

[Minor Axis]

When our pets get old or sick and approach the end, we make the hard choices and put them down if it's the humane choice. It's always a hard choice, but it's one made out of love.

Why don't we do the same thing for our loved ones? Do we love our pets that much more?

I believe the prohibition is based on the religious concept that it is a sin.

I think the problem is, there is too much room for abuse.

If someone is ill but no necessarily ready to give up, who's to stop someone killing that person and claiming it was their wish?

I believe the objection is more religious based than for the potential for abuse.

I am all for euthanasia. I think there should be strict regulations in place to try and prevent or at least minimise the abuse possible, but ultimately I think people should be allowed to ask their loved ones to help them end their lives.

There's nothing humane about prolonging suffering.

Agreed. I support the idea behind dieing with dignity.

 

[skyblue]

i'm with tim on this......it nearly destroyed me seeing my dad being eaten alive by cancer,to be honest ive not really got over it now after 5 years

 

[Darrell]

I support euthanasia for the terminally ill. Not for people looking for the easy way out. Nobody promised life would be easy.

Also, I do not think it will ever be accepted in society because as a whole they put too much value on human life.

The human life is valuable, however for their own selfish reasons people will likely always refuse to legalize "killing people" which is essentially what is being done with euthanasia.

The reason it is so widely accepted with pets is because that's just the way it's always been done, and most people don't hold an animals life nearly as high as a human.

 

[skyblue]

There are many differences. One is that a a person has a will, and probably most often doe not want to die. Secondly, and probably more importantly, we DON'T care about animals as much, which is why we let them go sooner. Nobody lets their mother die because they can't afford a procedure. That happens with pets all the time. People always have to choose between life saving surgery and their bank account. We also don't make anywhere near the effort to save animals that we do humans. If my cat has kidney problems, he's finished. A human with a similar problem can be be treated and still have a somewhat normal life. Because mechanisms are in place that prioritize human health over animal health.

my dad wanted to go,he was in agony and just a shell......he was just laying there in pain,he wanted out big time....but no,they wouldn't let him go.they kept draining his lungs and injecting morphine that made no difference...he needed relief from it,not to carry on with the agony.

and as for animals,the dog i had at the time loved my dad..the feeling was mutual...now i couldn't tell the dog his good friend had gone but he knew....for a big dog he was quiet and chilled out but that night he howled like i'd never heard him howl...he knew without being told

 

[Pet Sounds]

I support euthanasia for the terminally ill. Not for people looking for the easy way out. Nobody promised life would be easy.

Also, I do not think it will ever be accepted in society because as a whole they put too much value on human life.

The human life is valuable, however for their own selfish reasons people will likely always refuse to legalize "killing people" which is essentially what is being done with euthanasia.

The reason it is so widely accepted with pets is because that's just the way it's always been done, and most people don't hold an animals life nearly as high as a human.

Most importantly, there are much fewer options for treatment in animals.

If somebody wants to kill themselves, they can usually find a way to do it. Suicide is the only crime not punishable when carried out. Attempted suicide is a crime. Suicide itself leaves nobody to prosecute, unless you had help...

I think people should be discouraged from suicide but am not sure if we should forcibly try to stop it.

"I support euthanasia for the terminally ill. Not for people looking for the easy way out. Nobody promised life would be easy."

Those people have their own ills. The pain is not worth bearing anymore and is just as much a pathological condition as cancer.

 

[Pet Sounds]

my dad wanted to go,he was in agony and just a shell......he was just laying there in pain,he wanted out big time....but no,they wouldn't let him go.they kept draining his lungs and injecting morphine that made no difference...he needed relief from it,not to carry on with the agony.

and as for animals,the dog i had at the time loved my dad..the feeling was mutual...now i couldn't tell the dog his good friend had gone but he knew....for a big dog he was quiet and chilled out but that night he howled like i'd never heard him howl...he knew without being told

I think pets certainly can tell that their owner is dead. In their own way. Animals can kind of tell when their time has come too When my cat was dying he started hiding himself. He didn't want to be seen. I found him in the weirdest and most isolated places. He never acted that way before. Probably some instinct about not wanting to burden the family by being sickly.

 

[Darrell]

Those people have their own ills. The pain is not worth bearing anymore and is just as much a pathological condition as cancer.

Fair enough.

 

[Zorak]

I've always thought of choosing your own time of death as the final and most ultimate expression of personal freedom. I would not wish to force anyone to live beyond their own wishes.

 

[CityGirl]

When our pets get old or sick and approach the end, we make the hard choices and put them down if it's the humane choice. It's always a hard choice, but it's one made out of love.

Why don't we do the same thing for our loved ones? Do we love our pets that much more?

Having worked with critically ill adults for 20 years, I understand the nature of your question.
What we do with medicine in the last days, weeks, months for many of our elderly seems like cruel and unusual punishment and most reap no benefit...dying anyway with a host of tubes rammed in every natural orifice and many orifices of surgical creation. I left adult critical care because I couldn't be a party to that kind of treatment any longer. When a doctor put a dialysis catheter in a 100 year old woman in order to put her on a machine to function for her failed kidneys, that was the final straw for me. I would think after 100 yrs of use, loss of kidney function was a normal process.

Currently, there is a commercial shown in some states essentially claiming Republicans are trying to kill old people and the commercial shows a man pushing an elderly woman in a wheelchair and dumping her out of the chair off a cliff. It is not a pleasant visual but then I found myself comparing that visual with all I have seen of the elderly in critical care and I think...Good grief, in comparison , going off a cliff would be more humane.

There used to be a time when futile treatments at end of life were not offered. That is not the case anymore and I have seen many reasons from family...emotional and financial. Some (Many, it seems to me) don't want to discontinue care because that means a discontinuation of social security checks. (Did you read recently about the guy who kept his wife's body in the freezer for 10 yrs to keep the social security checks coming? http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-body-in-freezer-20110527,0,1571847.story)

I think there has been a hysteria fanned in this country using such verbage as "death panels" and this hysteria prevents reasonable, necessary conversation. But it gets dicey when you are talking about the value of life vs the capital expenditure to maintain that life. I sometimes think doctors should be able to tell family that any treatment moving forward is futile and that if they still want everything done, they will be responsible for all expenses incurred from that day on. The odds are not in favor of the patient's recovery and no reasonable gambler would wager on behalf of the patient.

 

[Alien Allen]

sadly I think too many doctors recommend continued treatment because it makes them money

I know a guy whose wife had terminal cancer

She has been dead a year. They strung it out as long as they could

And two weeks ago he got a bill from the doctor for $75k

 

[Panacea]

sadly I think too many doctors recommend continued treatment because it makes them money

I know a guy whose wife had terminal cancer

She has been dead a year. They strung it out as long as they could

And two weeks ago he got a bill from the doctor for $75k

This is true, doctors will recommend extra rounds of chemo or radiation for patients they know are terminal, costing more money and suffering.

Everything is a business, all about making money.

 

[CityGirl]

sadly I think too many doctors recommend continued treatment because it makes them money

I know a guy whose wife had terminal cancer

She has been dead a year. They strung it out as long as they could

And two weeks ago he got a bill from the doctor for $75k

I'm inclined to agree with you. Some of that is because the insurance industry and particularly Medicare, the way it is set up, make it possible. The dialysis example I mentioned is a perfect example. He is guaranteed payment from Medicare and he gets a larger reimbursement for every dialysis treatment the patient gets.


Can you imagine how expensive auto insurance would be if we used it for oil changes, tire rotations, filter changes, and other routine maintenance? I really believe part of the high cost of everything in this country is related to insurance and lending.

 

[Alien Allen]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Some of that is because the insurance industry and particularly Medicare, the way it is set up, make it possible. The dialysis example I mentioned is a perfect example. He is guaranteed payment from Medicare and he gets a larger reimbursement for every dialysis treatment the patient gets.



Can you imagine how expensive auto insurance would be if we used it for oil changes, tire rotations, filter changes, and other routine maintenance? I really believe part of the high cost of everything in this country is related to insurance and lending.

I should have recorded a conversation I had with my best friend about 25 years ago. He said at that time that health insurance was creating a monster. It was artificially raising costs. I know some of the liberals will disagree but another impact on costs is due to lawsuits or threats of. It drove up malpractice insurance costs and results in a ton of preventative medicine. The same mind set of watching your ass in business is reflected in everything we do. You get operated on you sign two dozen consent forms. You buy a car you sign two dozen forms. One of them I had to initial that I had read the form.

 

[CityGirl]

For any of you in GA, , I would encourage you to pick up a Critical Conditions planning guide and complete it for yourself and encourage all your family and friends to do the same. It is a tool to communicate what your wishes would be in the event you were unable to speak for yourself.

http://www.georgiahealthdecisions.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=59


This link provides a list of all the healthcare facilities in GA that provide the guide for free
http://www.georgiahealthdecisions.org/images/stories/Georgia%20Health%20Decisions%20CRITICAL%20Conditions%20Enrolled%20facilities.pdf

The benefit is that on completion of the planning guide, you have a Living Will and a Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare document. I wish all states had this.

 

[Tim]

I should have recorded a conversation I had with my best friend about 25 years ago. He said at that time that health insurance was creating a monster. It was artificially raising costs. I know some of the liberals will disagree but another impact on costs is due to lawsuits or threats of. It drove up malpractice insurance costs and results in a ton of preventative medicine. The same mind set of watching your ass in business is reflected in everything we do. You get operated on you sign two dozen consent forms. You buy a car you sign two dozen forms. One of them I had to initial that I had read the form.

Well this liberal has always been in the camp of preventing frivolous law suits.

Have them dismissed before they ever make it to a court.

 

[Alien Allen]

Well this liberal has always been in the camp of preventing frivolous law suits.

Have them dismissed before they ever make it to a court.

I am afraid that the democrats are in such lock step with the trial lawyers that we will never see the reform that is needed. I don't think the concept of an accident is something the democrats are familiar with. Somebody always has to pay.

Having said that ...... I don't want to remove lawsuits that are justified. The problem is getting at a consensus as to what is justified. We used to have a sense of self responsibility years ago. There was the old saying shit happens. Deal with it and move on. Now the mantra is if shit happens I am gonna make somebody pay. Even if I am responsible. This is a cost which everybody pays for in the end though. No free rides.

 

[Tim]

I am afraid that the democrats are in such lock step with the trial lawyers that we will never see the reform that is needed. I don't think the concept of an accident is something the democrats are familiar with. Somebody always has to pay.

Having said that ...... I don't want to remove lawsuits that are justified. The problem is getting at a consensus as to what is justified. We used to have a sense of self responsibility years ago. There was the old saying shit happens. Deal with it and move on. Now the mantra is if shit happens I am gonna make somebody pay. Even if I am responsible. This is a cost which everybody pays for in the end though. No free rides.

It is a very tough thing to draw reasonable cut-offs.

I think industry should be held in check with lawsuits when it comes to consumer protection. For example; a jury should hear why a warning label should have been affixed to a deadly chemical container. But they shouldn't hear about the kid who got hit by a car at night riding his bike because there were no labels telling him that reflectors weren't good enough and he needed a light.

As far as doctors and lawsuits... I have always said that there should be a panel of doctors and lawyers who could see the evidence. If it looks like the doctor made a blatant mistake (ie. he's done it before or it's malicious) then it can go to trial.
But patients do need a way to hold crappy doctors accountable if they screw them up.

 

[BadBoy]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Some of that is because the insurance industry and particularly Medicare, the way it is set up, make it possible. The dialysis example I mentioned is a perfect example. He is guaranteed payment from Medicare and he gets a larger reimbursement for every dialysis treatment the patient gets.


Can you imagine how expensive auto insurance would be if we used it for oil changes, tire rotations, filter changes, and other routine maintenance? I really believe part of the high cost of everything in this country is related to insurance and lending.

You can thank the high costs of everything in this country on LAWYERS.

If someone wants to end their life that should be their choice, not that of loved ones. This should probably get lumped in with Roe v Wade somehow. Loved ones want their sick one to stick around as long as possible so they can feel better that they have them, not really thinking clearly about the person who is actually suffering. We live in such a narcissistic society.

Another thought to ponder. Say you stand to inherit $1,000,000 if said sick and suffering relative will live one more year, but this relative wants to end their life now because they are in so much pain. What becomes your motive then?

 

[CityGirl]

You can thank the high costs of everything in this country on LAWYERS.

If someone wants to end their life that should be their choice, not that of loved ones. This should probably get lumped in with Roe v Wade somehow. Loved ones want their sick one to stick around as long as possible so they can feel better that they have them, not really thinking clearly about the person who is actually suffering. We live in such a narcissistic society.

Another thought to ponder. Say you stand to inherit $1,000,000 if said sick and suffering relative will live one more year, but this relative wants to end their life now because they are in so much pain. What becomes your motive then?

You are a baaaad boy... What a scenario! Interesting because this is similar to discussion that was taking place regarding the estate tax. In 2009 the rate was 45% and the exemption amount was $3.5 million. On January 1, 2010 a "one year repeal" of the tax was effectuated by a temporary, one-year-only rate of 0% and then the tax kicked back in this year. A lot of hypotheticals were thrown around about prolonging/discontinuing care in order to avoid the taxes.

 

[NuckingFuts]

Both of my parents had DNR's and with my dad he had coded out in the ER but they did not know. So they worked on him for 15 minutes and brought him back. They kept him alive in the ICU on a ventalator. After a week we decided as a family it was time to let him go. The doctors said he would never recover and was brain dead.


My mother ad it rough with MS and pancreatic cancer. The cancer took over her whole body and I sat alone with her in her hospice room as she passed away. I know she would never want it. Being a devoted Catholic and all. But I wish there was a way that we could have helped her along.