Don't ask, don't tell
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It doesn't influence your work...
I'd like to hear what the service men have to say about this.
They may think gay soldiers have troubles concentrating on their tasks among other males. They should be reminded Spartans and Athenians troopers were fucking each others under the tents at night, and still performed wonderfully on the battlefields 
UncleBacon
OTz original V.I.P
when you're in a shower filled with other guys around it can be an uneasy feeling knowing one of those guys are sizing you up like a lamb chop...and not saying it happens a lot but it has happened where someone of rank would propersition someone of less rank to do something with him or they will fuck with your career...I'm not against it because everyone should have a right to fight for their country but I think it should be kept to themselves their sexual orientation
I agree that's the worse. The goverment should set an example for the rest of the people and this is only promoting discrimination
GraceAbounds
Well-Known Member
When one is at work, they should be there to work. They are not there to have sexual conversations or to have sex. So it should not matter one's sexuality as none of it should be taking place in the work place. And if it is, no matter the sexuality of the person, they should be fired.
N
NightWarrior
Guest
For me, it wasn't about being in the shower with someone who might be gay. Who cares if they are staring? My thing was that when you are around men soldiers, the topics are supposed to be about women, sports and cars. Not what your wearing, what color your walls are painted or whatever else that isn't one of the big 3 I mentioned. Its not homophobia if you choose to be around like minded people. Just as your not racist if you choose to date only within your race (which is silly, why limit yourself like that).
sundvlfn88
Banned
I totally agree with Bacon on that subject. He couldn't of said it any better.
IntruderLS1
Active Member
Unit cohesion. Simple words, but powerful.
I personally don't believe that gay men and women should be allowed to serve. Not so much in intel or logistics positions, I'm mostly talking about front line fighters.
We've all watched games, where home team falls apart because unit cohesion falls apart. We can talk bravely about homosexual individuals, and I'm all for treating them fairly and with dignity, but at what cost? How many lives will we lose because little Tommy likes boys, but wants to kill bad guys when he grows up?
I'm very familiar with the argument that other countries have done this, and the problems haven't been world ending, but we are not other countries. Culture does exist in our little slice of heaven, and like it or hate it, it's here. I feel that we make too many demands on our culture too quickly, and in the process are losing it.
We all complain about how terrible society is becoming, and long for the good 'ol days when America was strong, prosperous, and driven. But we continue to force change. Change after change after change, and still people complain that it used to be better... But here we are, telling people they can't spank their kids, and saying something offensive to somebody too delicate makes you a monster, and little kids can't play tag, or dodge-ball, or swing on swings because it's too dangerous or too aggressive... (The new thing here is kids aren't allow to raise their hands in class anymore, because officials are afraid it makes kids who don't know the answer feel stupid.)
What kind of grand society are we forming here? Where are the nerves of steel, and the can do attitudes that built this place from nothing?
We are Americans, and we have nothing to be ashamed of.
I'm a simple guy, and tend to see the world in only primary colors. To me, if the answer is too complicated, then somebody is hiding the truth.
FWIW, the don't ask, don't tell policy is an easy exit for individuals who decide they don't want to be in the military anymore. Of the 11,000 individuals discharged under this program, I would be willing to bet 70% are first termers who miss home.
This guy in your video has a wonderful sob story. It was well produced and presented. However, for him to be identified and ultimately discharged, he had to have been causing problems in the unit. There are no witch hunts in the service. There are people who are known to be gay, and are left totally alone because they treat their heterosexual counterparts with respect.
If I were to paint with a broad brush momentarily (Please no speeches on stereotypes, I know there are always exceptions but, stereotypes don't write themselves either), I would go further to say that homosexual men are less inclined to violence, and their desire to see others get along is more powerful (Wonderful traits). The last unit I was assigned to had one such individual. We all had to sit there and listen to his anti-war crap day in and day out.... With a straight face, he could sit there in BDU's and talk about feeding the poor and make love not war. Did I mention ... "In uniform??" (Yeah, he was there for college money) I can't think of a single positive that would come from individuals of this persuasion becoming too populous in our ranks.
Peace corps is a better place for them IMHO.
</rant>
I personally don't believe that gay men and women should be allowed to serve. Not so much in intel or logistics positions, I'm mostly talking about front line fighters.
We've all watched games, where home team falls apart because unit cohesion falls apart. We can talk bravely about homosexual individuals, and I'm all for treating them fairly and with dignity, but at what cost? How many lives will we lose because little Tommy likes boys, but wants to kill bad guys when he grows up?
I'm very familiar with the argument that other countries have done this, and the problems haven't been world ending, but we are not other countries. Culture does exist in our little slice of heaven, and like it or hate it, it's here. I feel that we make too many demands on our culture too quickly, and in the process are losing it.
We all complain about how terrible society is becoming, and long for the good 'ol days when America was strong, prosperous, and driven. But we continue to force change. Change after change after change, and still people complain that it used to be better... But here we are, telling people they can't spank their kids, and saying something offensive to somebody too delicate makes you a monster, and little kids can't play tag, or dodge-ball, or swing on swings because it's too dangerous or too aggressive... (The new thing here is kids aren't allow to raise their hands in class anymore, because officials are afraid it makes kids who don't know the answer feel stupid.)
What kind of grand society are we forming here? Where are the nerves of steel, and the can do attitudes that built this place from nothing?
We are Americans, and we have nothing to be ashamed of.
I'm a simple guy, and tend to see the world in only primary colors. To me, if the answer is too complicated, then somebody is hiding the truth.
FWIW, the don't ask, don't tell policy is an easy exit for individuals who decide they don't want to be in the military anymore. Of the 11,000 individuals discharged under this program, I would be willing to bet 70% are first termers who miss home.
This guy in your video has a wonderful sob story. It was well produced and presented. However, for him to be identified and ultimately discharged, he had to have been causing problems in the unit. There are no witch hunts in the service. There are people who are known to be gay, and are left totally alone because they treat their heterosexual counterparts with respect.
If I were to paint with a broad brush momentarily (Please no speeches on stereotypes, I know there are always exceptions but, stereotypes don't write themselves either), I would go further to say that homosexual men are less inclined to violence, and their desire to see others get along is more powerful (Wonderful traits). The last unit I was assigned to had one such individual. We all had to sit there and listen to his anti-war crap day in and day out.... With a straight face, he could sit there in BDU's and talk about feeding the poor and make love not war. Did I mention ... "In uniform??" (Yeah, he was there for college money) I can't think of a single positive that would come from individuals of this persuasion becoming too populous in our ranks.
Peace corps is a better place for them IMHO.
</rant>
With all my respect, I couldn't disagree more. I don't understand why a woman or a gay can't be in the military when they do their job as good as any other soldier.
And honestly, the "culture" thingy sounds to me like an excuse not to change, improve and become a more open and tolerant society. I can say I'm happy that people like Martin Luther King didn't believe racism was part of the American culture... where would we be now....
Do you realize that there are an estimated 125,000 gays and lesbians serving in the armed services right now? This being the case, there shouldn't be ANY unit cohesion at all according to your argument. Maybe we can come up with a figure on how many of the 3545 US soldiers killed in Iraq were in part due to having a homosexual fighting along side of the normal soldiers.
Unit cohesion isn't based on everyone in the unit being the same. If it were, then blacks, Jews, Asians, or any other minority group wouldn't be welcome.
UncleBacon
OTz original V.I.P
the unit is only as strong as its weakest link (which can be anyone) everyone needs to be the same reguardless of race because in the end its not about you its about the man or woman next to you...when you're in the heat of battle its going to be that man or woman next to you risking their lives to keep you alive...if you have one person that's not on the same page you have a greater risk of being killed...I have met gay people from both sides of the spectrum as they put it...the one side where they are like any other man...talk sports and whatever else but does their job to the t(no problems their)...and the other side where they are more flamboyant and feminine and more worried about breaking a nail or how something looks, afraid to pull the trigger (to me their is no place in the military for someone like that male or female gay or straight)
the Navy and I'm sure the other branches have cracked down on it as well...they wont put you out if you say you're gay...you have to be caught in a homosexual act (male on male or female on female)...and according to the uniform code military justice any sex including oral other than male on female missionary is considered sodomy and is punishable...
their is more that I need to finish writing but i have to go...I'll finish up when I get home
I agree 100% But now we aren't talking about excluding gays, we are talking about excluding people that aren't up to the task. That can be anyone, gay or straight. I'm sure if you had a choice between a gay man willing to fight and a straight pacifist who would run at the first sign of trouble, you would pick the gay man to go into battle with... Hell, I would. ANYONE willing to fight with you side by side would be the best choice. period.
IntruderLS1
Active Member
Everything is about timing. I'm a big fan of Dr. King's work too, and I think America is stronger today than it would be if blacks were still being held down.
It's difficult to be clear without writing a book, but I'm not as far out there as I think you may think.
Look at racism in America. Our great grandparents were really bad. Our grandparents were mostly bad about it. Our parents are this sort of closet racist type, and our generation is almost completely open to different races. I'm thrilled to know that my son will never have a fear or distrust for blacks because of the way I'll raise him. These changes have come with exposure and education. If Dr. King had done his work in smaller steps, over the course of one or two generations, there would have been one tenth the pain this nation suffered during the transition.
Was the end result positive.... Yes. Was it done in the best way possible... I don't think so.
Gay society is making strong gains in this country. 30 years ago you had to either hide, or face being killed. Today it is accepted almost everywhere you go. Half the characters on TV are homosexuals. I think in another generation or two, there will not be the problems with them joining the military that there is today. As our children and grandchildren grow up around open gays, they won't be as bothered by is as our parents were.
My personal feelings are that the military's job is too important to try to force our enlightened views on. Combat is a primal thing, and warriors are primal individuals. (By no means to I consider primal and uneducated the same thing).
IntruderLS1
Active Member
How was that estimate reached? I would assume it was pulled from taking the average "gay count" in open society and matching those numbers to the number of people in the service. If that's the case, then I have strong doubts as to the accuracy of that number.
I am aware that there are gays serving in the military today. Like I said earlier, I knew at least one. I think the power of D.A.D.T. is that it has helped minimize the negative affects of these individuals on our fighting force.
The person I described to you earlier was a cancer in our shop. He brought down moral, he made people uncomfortable, he tried to raise doubts in everybody’s mind about what we were doing. He was the kind of person that needs to catch the boot under D.A.D.T..
If we said today, that gays could openly join the service, I feel that we would have 10 years of turmoil in the services. The straight 99.9% of the force will feel that they are being forced to deal with something they shouldn't have to deal with. You will have beatings, and court-martials, and legal disputes. You'll have people joining because they want to be surrounded by attractive men... Would we all get through it? Yes. No doubt. Is it worth the effort and pain at this time? I can't think of a single reason to think so. Let our children and grandchildren make that choice.
People who say it isn't fair to gays who want to serve today are using an emotional argument for an individual who is representative of 1/10,000th of our society. There are a lot of ways to serve this country without joining the military. If this gay individual can find absolutely nothing that will give him or her satisfaction in life besides carrying a rifle, then that is unfortunate. Do I think the rest of the nation should bend over backwards and subject ourselves to that kind of trauma for this person?... Of course not. It defies logic IMO.
IntruderLS1
Active Member
I would like to say for the record, that I feel the people on the side of the argument for gays here are standing where they stand on solid principals. I understand where you're coming from, and respect that the world would be a better place if your idealism were realized more often.
It is unfortunate that the world is not ready for that reality yet.
It is unfortunate that the world is not ready for that reality yet.
GraceAbounds
Well-Known Member
My husband served 10 years in the military. One of his best friends is gay. He met him in the military. As a Christian we may not agree with his sexual behavior, but also as a Christian it is not OUR job to judge. God called us to love our neighbor and that is what we strive to do. We love him regardless of his sins, as he loves us regardless of our sins. As long as the sins of others are not stumbling blocks to us then there is not a problem. And if it does become a stumbling block, it is our problem, not the other persons. The focus is always on what we can do to glorify God, not what we can point our fingers at about other people. God's Word lays out truth, but it is for each of us to accept on our own and by Him. I can share that Word, but I can not force anyone to believe and I can not use it to place judgment on others. I must use God's Word to love the Lord with all my heart mind and soul, to speak truth, to glorify Him and to love others as myself.
In the military, one's sexuality should not be an issue, therefore the don't ask, don't tell should not apply. I am so tired of special rules for special people. Make one law for all so that it is equal. Many say that special laws must be made because of discrimination. Wrong. Get rid of laws that discriminate and enforce the ones that are equal for all. Hold all to the same standard.
If all were held to the same standard sex would not be discussed on the job no matter what one's sexuality is. The military can be a 24/7 job when at war, so if you know that you don't have the sexual self control to shut your trap regarding sexual conversations, then you shouldn't join. If you get caught banging someone when you shouldn't be, regardless of sexuality, you should be fired. If your found guilty of sexual harassment regardless of your sexuality, you should be fired.
If people are found guilty of discriminating against people due to race, religion, sexuality, gender, etc., they should be fired.
I am sick of special rules. The only way to have equality is to set standards for all to meet, and if they don't them, they are fired regardless of their gender, sexuality, color/race, religion, etc.
Some religions do not believe in killing another human being. So on their 'application' form they are automatically disqualified from joining the military. Is that discrimination of religion? No. In the military you may be required to kill people and you know that when you join. So the pacifist, who happened to be gay, that Intruder was talking about, basically lied when he joined. He should be fired. Not because he is gay, but because he is not cut out to do the job.
Special this, special that ... guess what we are all special ... change begins with us, not with laws. IMO we need to all get over ourselves saying 'look at me I'm special and have a special need, love me, treat me fair' and start treating someone else like they are special, loving them, and treating them fair. No law can make people do this, it must come from the heart. If it doesn't and is forced on people, then the abuse is passive aggressive, which is just as bad if not worse.
In the military, one's sexuality should not be an issue, therefore the don't ask, don't tell should not apply. I am so tired of special rules for special people. Make one law for all so that it is equal. Many say that special laws must be made because of discrimination. Wrong. Get rid of laws that discriminate and enforce the ones that are equal for all. Hold all to the same standard.
If all were held to the same standard sex would not be discussed on the job no matter what one's sexuality is. The military can be a 24/7 job when at war, so if you know that you don't have the sexual self control to shut your trap regarding sexual conversations, then you shouldn't join. If you get caught banging someone when you shouldn't be, regardless of sexuality, you should be fired. If your found guilty of sexual harassment regardless of your sexuality, you should be fired.
If people are found guilty of discriminating against people due to race, religion, sexuality, gender, etc., they should be fired.
I am sick of special rules. The only way to have equality is to set standards for all to meet, and if they don't them, they are fired regardless of their gender, sexuality, color/race, religion, etc.
Some religions do not believe in killing another human being. So on their 'application' form they are automatically disqualified from joining the military. Is that discrimination of religion? No. In the military you may be required to kill people and you know that when you join. So the pacifist, who happened to be gay, that Intruder was talking about, basically lied when he joined. He should be fired. Not because he is gay, but because he is not cut out to do the job.
Special this, special that ... guess what we are all special ... change begins with us, not with laws. IMO we need to all get over ourselves saying 'look at me I'm special and have a special need, love me, treat me fair' and start treating someone else like they are special, loving them, and treating them fair. No law can make people do this, it must come from the heart. If it doesn't and is forced on people, then the abuse is passive aggressive, which is just as bad if not worse.
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