There's no hierarchy in anarchism. There's a big difference between order and hierarchy.
Does Capitalism Work?
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There's no hierarchy in anarchism. There's a big difference between order and hierarchy.
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Alien Allen
Froggy the Prick
like I said you are delusional
You have bastardized the definition of anarchy
It is nothing like you envision
please explain rather than spitting out the usual tired and ill-thought-out cliches about a system you don't understand.
Society has never been closer. The gap between rich and poor might be growing, but it's still far smaller than it was 100 years ago. And, more importantly, the average person in the developed world is far better off.
Yeah, and if someone ever finds one that works better than capitalism, everyone will welcome it.
The world isn't perfect, but considering most of the developed world lives in comfort. I'd say we're definatley on the right track.
I've got my NHS, my student loan, child benefit for my daughter. You might call them socialist ideals but socialism couldn't pull them off. So a superior system adopted them, and is better for it.
Socialism: Afghanistan, 1978.
Why would we want to? This anarchism is a load of fucking grade a bollocks. So much so, it angers me just to talk about it. And you can't argue with anarchists, because they can't see even the simplest flaws with out having a system of crime and punishment.
Grade A bollocks, I'm afraid.
So, let's say we lived in a system of anarchy for a second.
You own a wheat field. Another man owns a gun.
You no longer own wheat field.
Sounds like you got the short end of a hierarchy there! :24:
Chattle slaves were considerably better off by the time slavery was close to abolishment compared to when it started. Is that a justification for slavery working? That is a terrible argument Zorak.
The average person is propertionately less better off than fifty years ago and that trend is continuing. And we only seem better off because the chinese are making things so cheap we can afford to buy tons of crap we don't need to make us feel better about being slaves to a system that offers us no benefit.
Like I said, there are plenty of options out there but thanks to capitalism, we have no power to implement them because the power lies with the rich capitalists...
so bugger everyone else, right?
Actually, capitalism DID NOT give you those things, Capitalism fought long and hard to NOT give you those things. You have those things as a democratic response AGAISNT capitalism. We've had free market capitalism in it's purest form in the early 20th Century and look what they didn't have - good working conditions, workers rights, healthcare, welfare... the list goes on. WE have those things because the workers united and fought the capitalists for them.
Socialism could pull any of that off. Looks at the countries with the highest standards of living in the world, very socialistic countries: Scandanavia is a prime example of this.
hahaha so one little example in a very war-torn era and area as concrete proof? good job you're not a scientist!
Proof capitalism doesn't work: EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW AND FOR THE PAST 200 YEARS.
Grade A bollocks? Great political discourse.
Show me a flaw of a system you don't understand, be my guest...
same, you can't argue with capitalists because they can't look past their own indoctrination.
Peter Parka
Well-Known Member
Since 1967, the median household income in the United States has risen by 31%, fluctuating several times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Household_income_over_time
They probably do have too much power. But at least they're regulated.
I never said that. And that's a very cheap counter.
I don't know if you think that anarchism really will sort out ALL the worlds problems. But, right now, it's keeping the developing world more than afloat. It's driving them forward to better times.
I never said it did. I'm saying we have them now, because capitalism can support them. Nothing else can.
Capitalist countries? Oh, yeah. They are.
Next time your in Ikea make sure you try the meatballs. They're good.
You asked for an example and I gave you one. You're of course free to do your own research. The Democratic Socialist Republic of Afghanistan was socialism as close to Marx and Engel's vision as I know of. It's quite an interesting read actually, they started probably the largest land reformation ever. It was the land built for farmers.
Ok, sure.
It got my opinion across far better than any polysyllabic latin :24:
I don't understand it? So far I've read that Native Americans and the French Revolutionaries were Anarchists :24: Looks to me like nobody fucking understands it. What a system :24::24:
Alien Allen
Froggy the Prick
Ed your view of anarchy is not based on reality. You keep spitting out the same tired old crap but the bottom line is it relies on everybody deciding to agree and that is just not possible
how old are you anyway??
how old are you anyway??
Minor Axis
Well-Known Member
What makes you say that?
Ok, so that longest periods of anarchy were during pre-historic times, when we were basically cave men. I'm sold on Anarchy!
No hard feelings? That is not what I'm looking for in this discussion.
The problem with communism historically involves the highest levels of corruption of any modern day system.
I exclude Anarchy because I don't think most people consider it a modern system. And who is to say how much corruption you'd get under Anarchy? You can be just as corrupt at you want I guess until someone walks in and shoots you and until then everything is fine. But then look out. With no recognized authority, the group down the street who was doing business with the you can decide if they are going to come and shoot the shooter or just take over your corrupt business. And then there is the extended family, of the shooter, the Hatfields who by God are not going to let anyone kill a family member, and they might just seek retaliation. There are no police or established authority to get in the way so it all boils down to which group has the most weapons, and ironically, who are the most organized, decide what needs to be done.
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well it's an interesting article, but focussing mainly on freedom's doesn't really tackle the question and certainly doesn't really mention practicalities - a prime example being property. My parents first home, a 3 bed semi, cost 26,000GPB, just under 3 times my father's living wage. Now, my younger brother's first apartment cost him 150,000GBP, some 8 times his living wage. That's just one example at how worse off we are. We're working longer hours than our parents ever did, and we're earning proportionately less of the total money in society, the rich are taking a lot more. So, sure, we have more money, but we're getting proportionately less for more work. How exactly is that better off?
Median household income is a terrible indicator. Of course we have more money now, money that is worth a lot less. See my answer above.
So regulated that they're allowed to bring the global financial markets into crisis...
Apologies, but that's what you were implying.
You're going to have to really think about that. As I mentioned before, it's the fight AGAINST capitalism that is bringing us prosperity. And driving forward to better times? I really can't see them I'm afraid. The amount of people in the world living in poverty is increasing faster than people are being born? Good times ahead? For less people each day.
I'm afraid you've totally lost me there. I don't see how capitalism, which desperately wants to rob you of you benefits, give you less and less of the pie each year, can support those things?
Capitalist countries? Oh, yeah. They are.
Next time your in Ikea make sure you try the meatballs. They're good.
You could of course class them as capitalist countries, they have capitalism in some form for sure, but they have very strong socialist leanings - much more so than Britain or the US, or even countries like France. The capitalists leave Sweden, for example, I know this because many are my friends, because of the level of socialism in their economic model.
And yes, the meatballs are good.
As I explained, 1 example isn't sufficient to boldly claim a system has been "proved" not to work. There are plenty of examples of more socialistic economies doing well as well as many failures. I was simply arguing that the system hasn't been "disproved".
The fact that the majority of the capitalist world lives in abject poverty clearly won't sway you.
ok.
There's plenty of us that do understand it.
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Not based on reality? Even though it has existed for thousands of years? You have to remember, capitalism is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme of things.
Please tell me what "same tired crap" I'm spitting out? Because all I'm getting here is the same old tired crap responses we're all indoctrinated with since we were kids: "capitalism is the only system that works" (because that's what the capitalists tell us).
I'm 33.
Communist China is currently funding the world and is responsible for manufacturing all the great technology we love to use every day, and are indirectly responsible for our impression of being prosperous.
Peter Parka
Well-Known Member
Property is just one example, by and large we are financially better off and dont have to work as many hours.People may work long hours but that is because they want more, not need more like 50 odd years ago. I am a carer for my sick wife and I am provided with a nice home and enough to live comfortably on. As well as plenty enough food, I can afford holidays, cable tv, internet, games consoles and nights out. 50 years ago I would be in poverty and scrimping just to get by.
The point is Peter, that capitalism hasn't given you those things. You have those things thanks to the democratic struggle against capitalism.
Peter Parka
Well-Known Member
This is the problem here I find. Why can't people see that capitalism and socialism can work quite well together. Capitalism works because if people work hard they naturally feel they should reap the rewards. There is no motivation to do so if you're not going to be better off. However we need socialism as well so that the disadvantaged and poorer dont get squashed and stepped all over by the ambitious on their way to the top.
Even the Conservatives (here at least) support the NHS and benifit system. You dont have to be a greedy, self centered, fuck everyone else as long as I'm alright, prick to support capitalism.
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