Does Capitalism Work?

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edgray

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which is YES. :D

I don't have 9 minutes to spare, but we'll have to agree on what "work" means in this context before we can agree on an answer to your question.

You first.

That's the heart of it right there. I suppose capitalism works in the sense that it drives the wealth and power upwards to the few at the top. But please watch the video, it points out some interesting points about how, if capitalism were truly a successful system, why is most of the world, which is organised under capitalism, living in poverty?
 

Accountable

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That's the heart of it right there. I suppose capitalism works in the sense that it drives the wealth and power upwards to the few at the top. But please watch the video, it points out some interesting points about how, if capitalism were truly a successful system, why is most of the world, which is organised under capitalism, living in poverty?

I watched the video. A complete waste of time. It was an anti-capitalism bitch session without one syllable of what to do to counteract it. It also failed to define "work" in this context.

You agreed that we have to agree on what "work" means then you move on without establishing a definition.

Define "work" as you use it in the thread title, please.
 

edgray

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I watched the video. A complete waste of time. It was an anti-capitalism bitch session without one syllable of what to do to counteract it. It also failed to define "work" in this context.

You don't think some valid points were raised? The point that our prosperity has come from the democratic struggle against capitalism would surely be difficult to refute.

You agreed that we have to agree on what "work" means then you move on without establishing a definition.

Define "work" as you use it in the thread title, please.

My definition of "work" would literally be what functions best for society.
 

Accountable

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You don't think some valid points were raised? The point that our prosperity has come from the democratic struggle against capitalism would surely be difficult to refute.

My definition of "work" would literally be what functions best for society.
Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. They don't cancel each other out. The video was a stupid rant with no solutions, pointing out that poverty exists where capitalism exists. It didn't even try the weak argument that soviet communism was better.

Our prosperity is a result of fighting against capitalism?? The video spoke globally, so I assume you do as well. If that is the case, you are so off base its embarrassing. "Our" prosperity has come from empire-building, exploiting weaker societies and taking what we wanted. That worked for centuries.

Your post suggests that without capitalism, we'd all be more prosperous. It's a ridiculous argument.
 

edgray

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Democracy is a political system. Capitalism is an economic system. They don't cancel each other out. The video was a stupid rant with no solutions, pointing out that poverty exists where capitalism exists. It didn't even try the weak argument that soviet communism was better.

No they don't cancel each other out and it was never mentioned that they do. What I said was that it's been the use of democratic pressure against free-market capitalism (the introductions of workers rights etc etc etc) that has produced what prosperity we have.

The video, I would say, was a highly pertinent rant that strongly challenges the common lie we've all been sold since we were kids: that capitalism works. The solution is something it doesn't need to put across because it's so obvious: we need to change our economic system away from capitalism. It was using poverty as a good example as to the ridiculousness of the claim that capitalism is responsible for our prosperity when the majoirty of the capitalist world lives in poverty.

Our prosperity is a result of fighting against capitalism?? The video spoke globally, so I assume you do as well. If that is the case, you are so off base its embarrassing. "Our" prosperity has come from empire-building, exploiting weaker societies and taking what we wanted. That worked for centuries.

What the video meant, which is something mentioned in other threads here, is that the prosperity the average person in the western world sees is down not to capitalism, but the headway that's been made since the turn of the twentieth century to curb capitalism's hideous and destructive nature. The headway has been made through a democratic struggle that's resulted in partially regulated markets, workers rights, decent working conditions etc etc...

Sure, the UK and US have enjoyed exploiting foreign societies, and still do, but that isn't what has given the average person prosperity in either country. The prosperity has come through the laws that have been passed to regulate capitalism, however small those changes may have been.

Your post suggests that without capitalism, we'd all be more prosperous. It's a ridiculous argument.

Of course we'd all be more prosperous! Capitalism sends all the wealth and power upwards to the few. Imagine if that didn't happen... take the UK as an example: rising poverty, rising gap between the rich and the poor. Last time I checked the GDP for the UK divided into 16,000GBP per person (that includes children). Now 16K in Blighty gives you an ok standard of living. And obviously with most homes having more than one person in (4 being the average I guess), it probably equates to a massive 64,000GBP per household - IF capitalism wasn't allowed to drive all the money to the few. That would create a country of VERY prosperous people...

(excuse my crude economics there, but you get the idea...)
 
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hart

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In every type of government there is corruption, have and have nots, good things and bad things. Because it all comes down to those in power, NOT, the general population. Now if those in power aren't living there, like England was when they had the colonies, THAT'S a situation where change can and will occur. Of course, after that change, is it really that much different? My two cents worth.
 

Accountable

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*sigh* Alright Ed. We've been around this track before so I'll try to stay out of this for a bit, but what would you suggest be done?
 

edgray

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*sigh* Alright Ed. We've been around this track before so I'll try to stay out of this for a bit, but what would you suggest be done?

Anything that would be a step towards equality would be a good place to start. Giving the working population the fruits of their labour; improving working conditions; working smarter, not harder...
 

Meirionnydd

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Does capitalism work? Well, maybe for some people, such as the ones who benefit from the unequal distribution of power and wealth.

For the others though, well, probably not.
 

Minor Axis

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We all know the answer already, but here's a little video which starts out funny then gets pretty serious and raises a lot of very interesting points:

Every word in this video is true. Raw capitalism and the associated levels of poverty is well documented around the world because human psychology is to be greedy by nature. The work environment in the U.S. was at 3rd world standard in the 1800's before the rise of the labor movement who demanded a fair piece of the pie for workers. (I'm not ignoring the labor movement in Europe or around the world where labor has improved their standard of living, just not familiar with how it developed.)

Just who is the greedy party? Everyone! Humans are greedy by nature. However historically, owners have the overwhelming opportunity to act on their greed. Factory owners in Mexico are no more inclined to share the wealth with their workers than U.S. tycoons were in the 1800s.

Are workers scraping by their lot in life or can a system be designed where the majority of people benefit? I see two solutions- 1) Regulated Capitalism which recognizes the well being for the majority or 2)Socialism. And for any economic system to work, corruption, another human weakness must be contained.
 
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edgray

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Does capitalism work? Well, maybe for some people, such as the ones who benefit from the unequal distribution of power and wealth.

For the others though, well, probably not.

the "others" being the far majority of the planet :(

Every word in this video is true. Raw capitalism and the associated levels of poverty is well documented around the world because human psychology is to be greedy by nature. The work environment in the U.S. was at 3rd world standard in the 1800's before the rise of the labor movement who demanded a fair piece of the pie for workers. (I'm not ignoring the labor movement in Europe or around the world where labor has improved their standard of living, just not familiar with how it developed.)

Just who is the greedy party? Everyone! Humans are greedy by nature. However historically, owners have the overwhelming opportunity to act on their greed. Factory owners in Mexico are no more inclined to share the wealth with their workers than U.S. tycoons were in the 1800s.

Are workers scraping by their lot in life or can a system be designed where the majority of people benefit? I see two solutions- 1) Regulated Capitalism which recognizes the well being for the majority or 2)Socialism. And for any economic system to work, corruption, another human weakness must be contained.

I don't think humans are necessarily greedy by nature, I believe it's a learned behaviour. And until they find a "greed" gene we should assume that it is learned. Humans haven't always been greedy, in fact, I posted this quote on another thread:

Most contemporary anthropologists, as well as anarcho-primitivists agree that, for the longest period before recorded history, human society was organized on anarchist principles. According to Harold Barclay, long before anarchism emerged as a distinct perspective, human beings lived for thousands of years in societies without government.[7] It was only after the rise of hierarchical societies that anarchist ideas were formulated as a critical response to and rejection of coercive political institutions and hierarchical social relationships.

Historically, seems to be too modern a phenomenon to be human nature. Human habit, most likely.

Regulated capitalism is something we're getting, very slowly, but this requires a massive expansion of govt, which I personally do not see as a good thing.

I think socialism as an economic model is really the only alternative for a fairer society.
 

edgray

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Socialism is pure government! :24::24::24:

Depends which school of socialist thought you're talking about. The aim of socialist theory is to remove any division between citizen, state and govt so yes, it could be seen as pure govt, but it's not separate from the rest of the populous, it's everyone.

The French have that mentality already - when they refer to their "ètat", it's not a separate thing like in then UK or US, it's everyone in their country. It's a nice outlook I think.
 
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